America Concedes

This is not black and white as the story claims.

Why would the US build the worlds biggest overseas military base and all the infastructure in the greenzone, just to abandon it? Makes no sense. More than likely the US will leave a few thousand troops in the greenzone for future operations etc. Maybe that is why the report is shrouded in secrecy? They want the public to think they have withdrew the troops back home to the US, when in fact they are takeing a short breather before some go back for permanent duty in the greenzone?

Also a lot of the troops being pulled out, are earmarked for Iran and Pakistan for sure.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by The Last Man on Earth

You don't care about the Shia death squads that have been rounding up, imprisoning and torturing (i.e. raping) Sunni men then?

That is an Iraqi issue!
Iraqi Sunni and Iraqi Shia

If they feel they can handle the running of their own country now then more power to them.

In the end they'll have to do it sooner or later heck we dont still run Germany and Japan or Korea!

That is a very good point and I apparently completely misread the article! My apologies!

Originally posted by Saf85
This is not black and white as the story claims.

Why would the US build the worlds biggest overseas military base and all the infastructure in the greenzone, just to abandon it? Makes no sense.

Just look at what the US did in the Pacific right after WWII there were tons of locations that we fought and died for and then built facilities only to leave when the war was over nothing strange there.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Yep Slayer, Lots of folks are blind to their history around here.


Maybe it's just that there are a bunch of youngins.

Originally posted by jam321
Concede, lost?

This is like a no win situation with you guys as far as the US is concerned. If the language of this agreement had been total opposite of what it is, you still wouldn't say the US won or the US won major concessions. You guys would be bashing the US as Bullies, Imperialists, and any other similar words you can conjure up. So no matter what way this agreement was written up and agreed to, ya would still find fault with it.

I guess I am in the minority and see it as a good thing. Our troops are getting out of there by a certain date. And yes they're leaving with a victory. They have worked hard to secure the majority of that country and now it is up to Iraq to keep it that way. The rest of the stuff in that agreement is not important to me because I don't know what the US wanted out of this deal. All I know is the deal they agreed to. I know the article says Pentagon sources but it doesn't name them. These sources could be Pentagon janitors for all I know.

We didn't win in Iraq, are you kidding? The only reason we went over there was because Saddam decided to stop doing what we told him, if he had continued to follow our rules he'd still be over there terrorizing his own people. The fact is we are the ones who lost in the agreement they made with our government and we lost because thousands of our soldiers died for no reason. And yes even if the language in the agreement was different I'd still say that we lost.

I'm not mad about the troops coming home that's the only good thing about this deal. But they shouldn't have been there in the first place. It's more dangerous now than it was when we got there, for the Iraqi people and for the people in neighboring countries.

I guess it's hit or miss with opinions on war. Some people think it can actually solve things, and that killing people by the thousands will do anyone any good except for a small few people. My opinion is that war is wrong unless it's absolutely needed and that countries should stay to themselves. I think killing people is wrong. But that's just me...
Killing for peace is like f*ing for virginity.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Saf85
Just look at what the US did in the Pacific right after WWII there were tons of locations that we fought and died for and then built facilities only to leave when the war was over nothing strange there.

Yes, but I highly doubt they pulled all of the troops out of those countries, there's still bases there to this day. This agreement goes against the entire reason that we went there and the goals that we had when we went there.

I am glad american troops will be returning home but at the same time we must be cautious not to go all the way. I think we should keep 20-30% of the troops permenantly stationed there to make Iran think twice before attacking and to keep some law and order during the fragile rebuilding process.

I was totally against the invasion from the beginning but now that we have committed ourselves to wasting time, resources and money we shouldn't be looking for some easy escape because that would bring even more shame. We need to stay and finish the job!

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
We need to stay and finish the job!

Finish the job? In what manner would you consider the job finished?

Dont forget people are throwing shoes! We have to bug out now!

Iraq reconstruction 'a failure'
The US-led coalition's $100bn effort to rebuild Iraq has failed amid bureaucratic quarrels, ignorance of Iraqi society and violence in the country, the New York Times has quoted a US government report as saying....

Colin Powell, the former US secretary of state, is quoted as saying that the Pentagon gave inflated figures on the number of Iraqi security forces on the ground...

Figures 'invented'...

'Corrupt officials'...

Political lobbying

Link

It's written by an Iraqi newspaper, but they would know better than any one of us.

Aljazeera imagine that.


I never said they were all united in this.

Some of you are missing the point of what the war was about, and what is has achieved.

What has happened since the invasion?
First, Saddam is gone, a pro-US government is in power.
This government will do what the US asks it to do, for one simple reason. Kurdistan. This issue will be held over them for many years to come. Don't play by the rules, you lose your northern provinces and a crap load of income from all the oil. The US was also supposedly building a massive air base in northern Iraq aka Kurdistan. - If this is true it will have ramifications for neighboring Turkey as the use of Incirlik will no longer be required and the Turkish government will not be able to extort tens of billions of US tax payer dollars the next time the US has a war in the region.

Second, these bases built and infrastructure people speak of. While US troops may leave, there will be the potential for them to return if the situation in the region deteriorates. I'm speaking about Iran. Imo, Israel will be the one who strikes Irans facilities, not the US. We all know Iran can not hit the US mainland, but it can hit Israel. Israel is the country that feels truly threatened here, not the USA, therefore they are more likely to act on the matter.
With an Israeli strike on Iran, Iran will retaliate. The Iraqi government will get nervous, and call on the US to sure up its sovereignty. US troops will be back in Iraq, and a new war will have likely erupted.
With US troops already re-deployed in Afghanistan, and then more troops being sent back to Iraq, Iran will be hit hard.
Containment of Iranian forces. The straight of Hormuz will fall to US troops within weeks of fighting breaking out. In fact it will likely be one of the first targets, as an Iranian blockade would hurt the new Iraqi 'democracy', and hurt oil supplies to the world and the US.

Thats my theory and 2 cents.

We should all take time to remember all the sacrifices American and Iraqi soldiers have made so we could get to this point. It is a damn shame that the media does not report on all the current success Iraq has undergone. It is only due to this success, that this, leaving Iraq, is even a possibility.

reply to post by West Coast


I agree with you on that. The MSM should report on the realities of the war. It seems people don''t really take it seriously or understand what war is. They're desensitized to it and that's really sad.

Originally posted by West Coast
We should all take time to remember all the sacrifices American and Iraqi soldiers have made so we could get to this point. It is a damn shame that the media does not report on all the current success Iraq has undergone. It is only due to this success, that this, leaving Iraq, is even a possibility.

What "success" are you talking about?

I only see massive failures and the worst is still to come!

We opened a can of worms that will haunt us for many decades.

Aw, Im so proud of our troops! They busted ass and helped make the Iraqi people and government strong. Now they have the stregnth and balls to say "time to go", and back it up.

I dont see that as lost war at all.

If the goal was for them to be able to stand up for themselves, then that is a definate win.

reply to post by BLV12


And you think russia and china will let this happen? Not a chance!

You can count on WW3 starting before any assualt on Iran. You can also count on a major revolution within the US as people are waking up and will no longer tolerate such stupidity.

We've had more than enough turmoil and bloodshed this decade. We need to get the economy back on track and hope things start falling in place.

If Iran decides to attack Iraq there will be nothing anyone can do about it short of what I mentioned. The best strategy is to leave about 30% of our troops back as a mild deterance.

Also it might come as a suprise to some but many iraqis may actually welcome an iranian invasion to ensure shiite control. Shiites dislike sunnis because they have been oppressed for decades.

reply to post by mrsdudara


To say that the Iraqi government is strong is not exactly accurate. It's extremely corrupt, and still oppressing it's people because the American government put their own guy in there as president. Didn't you hear that 35 Iraqi officials were arrested for planning a coup?

Besides nobody won in that war. One day you should search in google or something for what's really going on over there and look at pictures that aren't censored by the news media and see if you still think anyone won this war.

Originally posted by Total Reality
To say that the Iraqi government is strong is not exactly accurate. It's extremely corrupt, and still oppressing it's people because the American government put their own guy in there as president. Didn't you hear that 35 Iraqi officials were arrested for planning a coup?

Besides nobody won in that war. One day you should search in google or something for what's really going on over there and look at pictures that aren't censored by the news media and see if you still think anyone won this war.

They are as strong as they are going to get - I think.

Every government is corrupt. So judging theirs for corruption is a little silly don't you think?

I dont need to google anything. I have family and friends who have been over there time and time again. I have heard many stories from the soldiers themselves who were there on the ground. They all say the same things.

reply to post by mrsdudara


They're far more corrupt and unstable than a lot of countries. They are completely controled by the US government and their "president" does what ever the US government tells him to. That's the whole reason we took Saddam out, because he stopped doing what he was told, just like Chavez and the president of Ecuador a while back.

And I doubt your friends told you or even know the full extent of what's going on, especially to POWs. I saw the most graphic, disturbing pictures I've ever seen in my life. And that stuff goes on everyday over there. And the way that they torture prisoners? It disgusts me to think that those are American marines. I respect those who are fighting over there, which is most of the soldiers, but torture and rape and killing just to kill? I don't respect that.

[edit on 23-12-2008 by Total Reality]

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

What "success" are you talking about?

US troop casualties to hostile attacks are now less than 10 per month, a dramatic improvement from as much as 100 deaths per month in the past. If a country of 25 million people were against the presence of US troops, why are only 8-10 US troops being killed per month? Many troops report not having had to fire their guns even once in the last 90 days.

Iraqi deaths are low. The Iraqi people have taken responsibility for removing radicals from their midst, which was the most fundamental objective for installing democracy in Iraq in the first place. Iraqi refugees, some who left as far back as during the 1980-88 Iraq-Iran War, are returning to Iraq for the first time in years. Neither Iran nor Al-Qaeda are capable of causing major violence in Iraq anymore.

The political process is stable. Iraqi elections have had high voter turnout with minimal violence, women are voting in full force. The Iraqi parliament and judiciary system are functioning moderately well. There was scarcely a country more unlikely to function as a democracy, yet this miracle has happened. We should be proud to have had the privilege to witness it. This will, eventually, lead to a domino effect of greater freedom in Iran, Syria, and Jordan. There is little to no threat of a coup in Iraq. If you consider how many cultural, regional, and sectarian forces were fighting against this outcome, the magnitude of this miracle becomes clear. What took Germany and Japan 25 years after their defeat in WWII, Iraq has achieved in under 6 years. Iraqi politicians are corrupt, but so are American politicians. If Iraqi corruption is no higher than that of India (a fully functioning democracy), that is to be considered a success.

The Iraqi economy is booming. This bodes well for Iraq. History has proven repeatedly that once a certain level of prosperity is reached, a society becomes more interested in economic activity than destabilizing violence, and the general public will unite to combat elements that are bad for business. Iraq is not at this level yet, but is on track to approach it rapidly.

Iraq's real GDP continues to grow at about 7% a year. Iraq's exports of oil are increasing, and the revenue amounts to thousands of dollars per year per Iraqi. Beyond oil, industries like financial services, telecom, and solar energy are taking root in Iraq for the first time. Internet use is surging. Most Iraqis now have cellular phones, which is very complementary to the democratic process. The Iraqi stock market is functional, and investor participation is increasing.

For the first time in years, more Americans view the Iraq War as a positive endeavor than those who have the opposite view.

I only see massive failures and the worst is still to come!

That is because you hope for failure, you emphasize only bad news while ignoring good news...





[edit on 25-12-2008 by West Coast]