When Was Jesus born?

reply to post by theindependentjournal


Great post! I will star and flag your post. I have written a thread on the truth about Christmas, Easter and sunday worship when I first came to ATS. I think some christians need to be shown in the bible where it says these things. First off the tree cutting and decorating.... also known as idolatry is found in Jeremiah 10:1-5.

1: Hear the word which the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel.
2: Thus says the LORD: Do not learn the way of the Gentiles; Do not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the Gentiles are dismayed at them.
3: For the customs of the peoples are futile; For one cuts a tree from the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax.
4: They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers so that it will not topple.
5: They are upright, like a palm tree, and they cannot speak; they must be carried, because they cannot go by themselves. Do not be afraid of them, for they cannot do evil, nor can they do any good.

And God speaking against pagan TRADITION with christian beliefs found in Deuteronomy 12:29-32.

29: "When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land,
30: "take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'
31: "You SHALL NOT WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD IN THAT WAY; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods.
32: "Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.



So there is some biblical proof against christmas and other pagan-to-christian holidays. On a side note, the only commanded holy days in the bible are the ones mentioned in Leviticus 23. 7 feasts of the LORD which outline His plan for humanity. Also you should know that Jews and early christians never celebrated birthdays but the death of loved ones.

I'm surprised that none of the posters have submitted the hypothesis that Jesus Christ may never have even existed.

I'm not supporting one way or the other, but we would have to explore each and every possibility for an honest debate.

Assumptions are more often than not the root of all error.

reply to post by Choronzon


The existence of Christ is for a whole other thread post. This one is for christians who shall debate His birth and weather it was Dec. 25. My suggestion is to start your own thread with the topic "Did Jesus Ever Exist?"

The Magi in Babylon knew exactly when he was to be born, and they knew he would be a Jew, but unaware of Hebrew tradition they didn't know where. There would have to be some sort of Venus-Saturn-Jupiter (Morning- Lord- and Kingstar) alignment, giving atleast me a hint that we're looking at some celestial event in or before 6 BC when a Saturn and Jupiter conjunction was visible at dawn in Pisces, making retrograde motions as the Gospel shows before it "stopped" just above the cave where young Jesju was crying in the cradle. The month was probably Adar around Passover, within the week of the Shabbath of Parasha Pekudei, "the cencus". But of course no Christian even knows what Magi or Adar or Parasha Pekudei means. Let them believe in fairytales and be stupid forever, dreaming of some reward for their folly and disregard.

Thanks to Locoman and Neo Christian for your great answers. I didn't go into the Sabbath as that is for another thread but great point. And thanks for posting the tree verses for everyone, I shoulda thought of that.

I agree that most Christians have no Idea what the Magi were, I mean heck they don't even know when the arrived or where - Jerusalem about 2 years or so after the Birth. They came from Babylon and where Chaldeans, star watchers, wise men, schooled in Astronomy and I agree hey went when they saw the sign that Daniel told them to watch for, I believe.

I think that Yeshua/Jesus was born about the time that Missler says, Sept. 29 on our calendar and I aint biased because my birthday is Sept. 29th, really I aint. My pastor places it somewhere between Sept 28th and Oct 2 2 B.C. .

I also wanted to thank Locoman for figuring out that this thread is really for Christians to learn about the things they do in God's name. I think another great example is the Mount Sinai Story and the Golden calf...

Aaron said "Let us make a golden calf (what they knew from Egypt) and declare a Feast unto the LORD". God answered that he was very angry that they would do a pagan thing and claim it was done for him. Just what Christians do today for Easter and Christmas...

I keep the Sabbath and I keep only the 7 feasts plus Hanukkah because it says Yeshua kept it in one place, I forget where right ff hand.

Thanks again fr your insightful responses and GOD BLESS!

reply to post by theindependentjournal


My personal research puts Jesus born at the Feast of Tabernacles (end of sept.) in 5 BCE which would align with a comet that was visible for 70+ days. The notion is that He was concieved at Chaunakka around Dec. 10 as it is known as the feast of lights and Jesus is described by John as the "Light" of the world, the "Light" of God, etc. consisting of the theme for "feast of lights" which was a time Jews celebrated in anticipation for the Messiah. Also note that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus and was also quoted by Jesus as being "Elijah" which if you are familiar with Jewish customs and traditions.... Elijah is due to come back on passover and every passover there is a place waiting for his arrival. If you place John the Baptists birth at passover (March 25, 5 BCE) and add six months you get Sept. 25 5 BCE which would be the feast of tabernacles. It even mentions that He wasn't circumcised for 8 days and if you consider the feast of tabernacles plus the "Last Great Day" total of 8 days, it makes sense. Mary purified herself for 40 days in the temple. Consider this along with the fact Shepherds were living in the field tending their flocks eliminates winter for His birth. Take into consideration the census in Luke and most likely the Romans would have scheduled it at a time of one of the 3 feast periods. Early spring Passover/Unleavened Bread, Early Summer Harvest of Pentacost/Trumpets/Atonement or the Late Summer Feast of Tabernacles/Last Great Day. Just taking the 6 month difference with John and Jesus and linking John to Passover puts Jesus at Tabernacle Feast. This is also supported by taking John's father, Zecharias, and linking him to the priesthood of Abijah which holds it's 2 rotations of the priesthood in early summer and late fall/early winter. Elizabeth concieved shortly after his priesthood was finished.

Reguardless of weather it was 5 bce, 3 bce, 2 bce or somewhere in between, Jesus was born either on Passover or between the feast of Trumpets and Feast of Tabernacles. Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

September 11th is the TRUE Christmas (Jesus David's birthday), and by making it a "day of terror", "eve of the worst financial collapse", and "the emergency phone number" are the three elements of a spell cast by the Pagan Luciferians to keep us from celebrating the HIGHEST meaning of the day, in peace, love, and tolerance, and I am OUTRAGED that this is not known to the public.

O-315

bible_believers_jesus_birthday


Oh, and the sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday. Sunday is the first day God went to work, making the world, the universe, and everything. Saturday is actually named after the words "sabbath" and "day".

[edit on 26-2-2009 by organism315]

reply to post by organism315


Sept. 11 seems very possible because it's around the time of the feast of tabernacles, the Holy Day I believe He was born on seeing that it was 6 months after John the Baptist was born on Passover. However, I think He was born around 5bc because of the galactic occurences and the Magi finding the star of Bethlehem (a comet with a tail in 5 bc).

The interesting thing is if you go by science and astrology and assume the "north star" story with the wise men is correct then the date goes to June 6th 2 ad as I believe they said Jupiter was would appear to be directly overhead where we claim he was born at (from the starting point of the wise men), and at the time the brightest star in the sky although now we all consider it a planet.

reply to post by Darthorious


Funny thing is, the bible doesn't reference the "North Star" which is a naturally dim star to the naked eye. The star the magi followed was very unique. Not just bright but seemed to point directly to Bethlehem. A tailed comet or alien spacecraft are the only two answers I could come up with and I don't believe in alien spacecraft myself. it's all government secret projects in my opinion. So it was a comet and if you research the comet that appeared in 5bce, you will see that it darn-near perfect with something the magi could follow.

Angels appeared at the manger birth, but 2 years later Magi from a foreign land are drawn by a star. Why didn't the angel in the star come down and make his presence known when the gifts were given?

The magi said they saw his star and followed it. A birth star or planet is astrology and I don't think the Jews practiced that form of worship.

I say the star timed itself with Herod's execution of the young boys in order pinpoint Jesus' location and seal his death.

reply to post by theindependentjournal

The year numbering system for the Common Era was devised by the monk Dionysius Exiguus in the year 525 to replace the Diocletian years, because he did not wish to continue the memory of a tyrant who persecuted Christians.

The calander we follow is based on Christ, not the other way around. BCE=Before the Christian Era and AD=Anno Domini (Ancient Latin for: In the year of the Lord).

The Jews have a Hebrew Calander and their dates are different,
For example today the 27th Feb 2009, is 3 Adar 5769. (Adar is March in Arabic, I don't know Hebrew but am assuming it's the same)

And the Muslims have a lunar calander which is based on moon cycles. Their year is 1430AH

I don't know if this explains anything.... but it's something to consider.

reply to post by Obliterated


Definately something to consider, the changes to our calenders can throw anything BC out of whack. What about the introduction of the gregorian calender? Didn't we lose like, 3 days or something, or gain 3 days, something like that.

Also, I was told based on the gregorian calender change, that christ was born March 21st, 6 BC, this was from a montauk survivor (supposedly), who was involved in mind-control and programming.... anyway, another date to consider

reply to post by Obliterated


The calendar we follow is not based on Christ but on the Roman solar cycle of 365 days. The Jewish/Hebrew calendar has 360 days in a year and is a lunar calendar. Adar or Nisan is the first month of the hebrew calendar and does not mean march. It's all lunar cycles before the Romans decided to use the sun to determine the calendar cycles due to prior sun worship customs. This was a way to pay homage to a false idol.

All of the Hebrew holy days fell on full moons with the exception of pentacost. Passover was on a full moon followed by 7 days of unleavened bread. 50 days later was pentacost or late spring harvest. Feast of trumpets was on a new moon followed by the day of atonement. The feast of tabernacles started on a full moon and ended with the Last Great Day 8 days later.

The initials B.C.E. do not mean "before Christ's Era." It means "Before the Common Era. We no longer go by A.D. anymore since the information based on it is inaccurate (the idea Christ was born in 1AD). It's been proven He was born sometime between 6 and 2 bce. The current system we use is known as C.E. or "the common era". So we live February 27, 2009 C.E.

reply to post by Im a Marty


Right now for Muslims it's January, for Christians it's February and for Jews it's March.

As for the birth date, My Grandmother was registered as being born 1st Jan 1940. Her real birthday is the 12th of Jan 1938. Her sister was born in August 1940 and the 2 of them got registered together so they are registered to have the same year of birth but in different months.

You'll find alot of people born in the middle east have the wrong birth dates. If they are born at the end of the year their birth date is usually put forward to the next year. The same thing may have occured in Jesus time period. The month of March may have been based on registration (or something similar) not on the actual day of birth.

I don't think you can really know.

reply to post by Locoman8


In Lebanese, our months are in Aramaic. Adar means March to us. I assumed that in Hebrew it was the same. sorry my error.

As for Before Christ and After Christ, that is what the BC and AD stood for before it became common era. It was changed to common era not to offend non-christians.

[edit on 27-2-2009 by Obliterated]

in reasent times ive come to the conclution that being a "christ" was something early christians strived for ,

i belive personality of "christ/christians" is some what compareble to that of sokrates,

one who shows where the law goes and shows that its an unfair law yet still takes the punishment even if it leads to a sertain death,

" dying for YOUR sins "

sorry if this is de railing but to me its not when jesus was born but more a question of when a christian was/is born ,

reply to post by zerbot565


To Christians, Jesus is Christ.

A Christian is a follower of Christ/Jesus. And is supposed to follow the teachings/actions of Jesus.

Today, there are many new variations of Christians. Many who do not follow religion based on Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox. I agree with you to an extent and I think maybe the word Christian is used differently to it's old meaning and beliefs within some Christian sects.

reply to post by Obliterated


As a christian, the bc/ad system offended me because they were putting the birth of Jesus at a later date than His actual birth. The first month of the Hebrew calendar isn't called March but takes place in mid/late march through early/mid april. It's a lunar harvest calendar. Adar/Nisan was the first month of the early spring harvest which started after Passover on 14 Nisan (Jews celebrate Passover on 15 Nisan today due to the lack of a temple to sacrifice in. They decided to move Passover to be the first day of unleavened bread though the first day of unleavened bread is separate from passover).

" Scholars do not know the exact year or date of Jesus' birth or death. The Gospel of Matthew places Jesus' birth under the reign of Herod the Great, who died in 4 BC/BCE,[19] and the Gospel of Luke describes the birth as taking place during the first census of the Roman provinces of Syria and Iudaea in 6 AD/CE.[20] Scholars generally assume a date of birth between 6 and 4 BC/BCE.[21] Due to a fourth century arrangement to offset the pagan Roman Saturnalia festival, the birth of Jesus is celebrated on December 25. Since the thirteenth century, the celebration of Christmas ("Christ's Mass") has become an important Christian tradition.[22] The common Western standard for numbering years, in which the current year is 2009, is based on an early medieval attempt to count the years from Jesus' birth. "

Wikipedia link: en.wikipedia.org...

Oh and BTW if we are not allowed to slam the prophet Jesus in this thread please do not slam Pagans. Expecially if you do not even know what the word means in the old tongue... which btw is the similar to the word "hick" that we use today. Paganism represented the beliefs in more then one god and an extreme tolerance of ALL other religions. That is how Judaism and Christianity was able to flourish.