Christians need to face the facts!

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I guess people do not understand what being born again means . ...

So hard to explain this ...help someone who is good at explaining this ..

If you don't mind an admittedly imperfect analogy, I'll give it a try.

The act of accepting Jesus as Savior, on both emotional and intellectual levels, is akin to giving a computer technician permission to hook you up to the internet by replacing corrupted modem software.

Without a connection to a larger network, your computer is isolated - still capable of marvelous things, yet unable to be at its fullest potential. Its ability to hear that wider network is impared, and as such its ability to interact with the network is also impared, which impares what it is able to do. Likewise because of sin, your ability to interact with God on a spiritual level is impared.

If the modem is the ear of the computer, the modem software is the receptor brain cells that translate the sounds from the modem into information the computer can use. When the modem software is corrupted the sounds the modem sends cannot be translated and understood.

God removes the corrupted software, correcting the errors that have accumilated over the years so that it can function. He creates new software - a new man, innocent of those things that corrupted the old software and able to function again like it was meant to.

Now, how does the software allow us to communicate?

Well, do you know those cartoons where there is a devil on one shoulder, and angel on the other, and the guy has to talk to each to deside what he's going to do? The Christian undestands that's not far off the truth.

Each one of us, it is said, engages in an "internal conversation" or dialogue, sometimes called our conscience. We "hear" this conversation and the voice sounds the same regardless of what it is saying. When the "software" is fixed, through the forgiveness of sin and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we can recognize that instead of a single voice we have a spiritual DSL line - with two incoming signals, the voice of God and the voice of evil, and one going back out - our own voice.

Each of the two incoming signals tries to influence our behavior; trying to make us choose between murdering the person who cut us off in traffic and praying for that person incase their driving is because of some emergency they must attend to. Our voice simply argues for what is "best" for it - good, bad or indifferent, it doesn't care, as long as it gets what it wants. Being "born again" means that because we can now clearly tell the difference between the signals we can be influenced by the Right signal and do the right thing for the right reasons.

Again, this is an admittedly imperfect analogy, but hopefully it conveys what being born again is and what it does for you. If you have suggestions for improving it please feel free to let me know.

reply to post by justamomma



I have never seen another who claims they understand the teachings of the Bible judge others so harshly about how 'they are wrong'.

This is how I know your ego is beyond yourself. You limit God and you limit what understandings Thee has for others. Let God do the judging...if you can allow yourself that humble action.

LV

You are no different then the priest that tell others...THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST BELIEVE OR ELSE> Its a fear tactic to get others to follow your ways.

It is obvious that others have found a path of peace or understanding that different then others. Who are you to say anyone is wrong.

Where in the Bible did God call you his only mouthpiece....

Peace to all,
LV

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by justamommaIt is evident that I have more faith and trust in G-d since I believe His words and made no excuses or interpretations about them. He speaks for Himself. This is something I still have yet to see from anyone else on this thread. SHOW me that you have arrived at your conclusions via the words of G-d.

but we're only allowed use the words you believe are from god, right. it is only the words that you deem to be true.

you say you do not interpret the word of god yet you do so by giving an opinion on it's meaning that someone else might not have.

you put yourself above others so i know you're wrong.

1. Show me the words of G-d that agree with what you are saying is what I asked for. Everything I have said CAN be backed up by the words of G-d. If you are going to interpret things that G-d did not say, that is fine, but don't attribute them to G-d. If you would go back to the beginning and READ WHAT HE SAYS and then filter everything through that, a whole different picture is painted that leaves one not able to argue with the validity of the Old Testament and the purpose of the New Testament.

2. I am not interpreting anything. I am all over this thread SHOWING you all that these things are NOT what G-d said. I am correcting so as to make sure you all keep in line with the book you claim to be basing your faith on.

3. This does not make me better than anyone else as you well know. You just don't like the message that is ACTUALLY in the bible because it isn't easy to hear since it is against the ego; thus you target me as arrogant because it is all you have left to argue with.

I am not giving you MY opinion, I am telling you what G-d says on the matter. Whether I follow it or not doesn't change the fact that the things said here are not in line with what G-d says in the Bible. Whether you follow it or not is not my concern. I am not trying to convince ANYONE to follow G-d. I am just denying all the ignorance that is drenching this thread and showing you what G-d ACTUALLY says in the Bible on the matters at hand.

What is happening is the equivelent of me saying that the story of Jack in the Beanstalk is about a little wooden puppet named Jack who comes to life by a fairy named Harp and the giant wanted to keep him from being a real boy.

Got some names right showing that I have a little knowledge, but got the WHOLE story wrong showing that I only skimmed through the book.

If I did that and you knew the real story because you read it as was written in its entirety as it was laid out, would you stand by and agree with my interpretation and say my version was just as correct as anothers? If so, then what are you doing on this board?


[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

For the Christians: If you have faith that your beliefs are right, why must you argue to justify them, just accept that others disagree.

For the New Agers(like me): I can see the parallels in the OT and more ancient sumerian text, but why should the Christian's have to accept it.

Both are really old texts that can be spun in all different directions depending on what world view you need it to fit. My point is that unless you were there at the time of their creation you don't have any more true knowledge than anyone else. Let's just agree to disagree, and have that be it. Bickering hasn't got us any closer to the truth in the last thousand years and will not in the next thousand(assuming humankind makes it that far).

If you have been on ATS for long enough you will realize some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Don't let some one else's world view get you bent out of shape, after all it's not like their putting a gun to your head and telling you to convert to theirs or die.

Time's are gettin' tuff and now more than ever we need to come together despite our differences.

Originally posted by justamomma
1. Show me the words of G-d that agree with what you are saying is what I asked for.

mathew 5, as per my last post.

Not to come off as __________, but truthfully, how could you look at the obvious... The Old Testament being plagiarism, and the new testament being just as bad as Joe Smith's, the book of mormons and or Mr. Hubbard's, Scientology, and try to defend the ideology. I am not here to ridicule anyones beliefs, I really am not, your choices are your own and there for your responsibility. Just as me not believing in religion and or God is sure to damn me to heck should it all actually exist. But pardon my seeing this whole story as the person who cut the bottom of his blanket and sewed it to the top to attempt to make it longer. It's only reasons, excuses, claims are brought from one source and that source is used to explain itself. and that is why it will never accept any facts outside its system because it starts to degrade the illusion. It is by far the most closed minded thing ever invented to try to subdue the masses and it has worked for eons not just christianity but all beliefs that are inherent upon a magical being or some such non sense.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by justamomma

 

I have never seen another who claims they understand the teachings of the Bible judge others so harshly about how 'they are wrong'.

This is how I know your ego is beyond yourself. You limit God and you limit what understandings Thee has for others. Let God do the judging...if you can allow yourself that humble action.

LV

You are no different then the priest that tell others...THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST BELIEVE OR ELSE> Its a fear tactic to get others to follow your ways.

It is obvious that others have found a path of peace or understanding that different then others. Who are you to say anyone is wrong.

Where in the Bible did God call you his only mouthpiece....

Peace to all,
LV

G-d's words ARE written down ya know. It isn't like we can't just read them and see for ourselves. So, am I egotistical for showing that what these ppl here are saying is NOT what G-d is saying or are you egotistical for believing them over G-d.

"THIS IS WHAT YOU MUST BELIEVE OR ELSE> Its a fear tactic to get others to follow your ways." I have never implied that you have to believe what G-d says and I respect that as your choice. I can't convince you to turn to Him and never have I used fear tactics. I have only shown what He actually says.. using HIS words as they are written. Funny that you would feel fear when all I have done on this thread is show how these are false representations of the Bible. They are picking out what suits them and leaving out what doesn't. Actually, most aren't even USING the Bible though they are attributing *their* belief system to it.

What I have written is NOT my way. It is the way that is given in the Bible as I have shown.

LOGIC NEED NOT BE LOST TO HAVE FAITH PEOPLE!!

which is the TRUE statement (use a bit of that brain to answer this btw):

1. **Trust in G-d and lean not unto your own understandings** is an egotistical thing to say.

2. **Turn to the christ in you and there you will have knowledge** is an egotistical thing to say.

They completely contradict one another and so only one can be correct. Which one is the more egotistical statement? Trusting G-d or trusting yourself? Just a wee bit of logic and looking at what G-d said is needed in answering this.

I claim the first and you have called me egotistical; yet those are not my words... hehe

Forgive me in advance if this sort of statement has already been posted.

People will always worship whatever gods they will. Whether the religion itself is a hoax or not, they will practice the religion. It doesn't matter. Ever hear of the Zorasters? They worshipped ...swords? IMHO, so long as people choose to practice in peace so be it. When someone comes to me and says you "must" is where I draw the line. All religions have their demons and their saints. One thing religions do is bring people together in a sense of community, and that's not a bad thing. If the religion inspires faith in God even better. Faith in the divine is faith in yourself. If you do not believe it, try it on for a couple weeks, you lose nothing but may find a bigger sense of self and inner strength than you ever knew you had. You can naysay all you like, history has proved over millenia that faith and worship are part of the human species. Do not define mine for me please, I have it well in hand.


PG


edit- I also think the OP could pick something better to debate about, though I wonder why about Christiainty, perhaps someone has an agenda to cast doubt, insecurity, and disruption amongst the people....naaaaaa

[edit on 9-12-2008 by pizzaguy]

reply to post by dominicus


Why do you believe that just because you believe in Jesus you are the only one that gets the no fear of death and so on.

I personally find peace in the fact that when I go, that is it. There is no more of anything that to me is truly eternal peace.

reply to post by precociousmonkey


is your opinion based on first hand knowledge and contemplation of the book in question or is it based on the opinions of others.

it's just that even primary school kids are expected to have read the book before writing their review.

[edit on 9/12/08 by pieman]

reply to post by Incarnated



"They are going to have to make adjustments to their false faith to make it more realisticly based."


The same thing can be said for any theory.

You do have a brain don't you ??

reply to post by pieman


My opinion is based upon my own experiences and all that entails, growing up a devout Roman Catholic, who read the Bible to his grand mother, the attempts of finding differing opinions and seeing why they should be believed. Seeking my own answers and finding my own way, through the mud that is said to be faith.

reply to post by precociousmonkey


good stuff. i believe it because i feel the truth of it. i went through the process you described and finally, i came to strong belief, just not sure what in yet.

reply to post by pieman


I would like to believe the truth in it, but I don't see it. Maybe I am too curious for my own good, or maybe I am too close minded to try to accept it again. However I will always seek the knowledge to brew my own opinion.

reply to post by Incarnated

Originally posted by Incarnated
The facts that christians need to face is that the Jews stole many of their "holy writings" from the sumerians and then to back date the Jews as a people they spun the taken writings and put them in nationalistic and self grandizing documents that they felt were the leadings of God.

The facts that christians need to face is that Paul and the early chruch fathers, to make the story of jesus more acceptable to the masses of the day and future generations, took great liberties in spinning well known and accepted mythologies of the time and sprinkeled those well known mythological stories upon the unseasoned story of Jesus.

Until then the christians fail to rise above their own conspiracies in religion.

It seems obvious to me that each new religion has it's beginnings in a previous religion and that the new religion builds their teachings upon them.

The Buddhists came out of the Hindu religion. The Christians came out of the Jewish religion. The Baha'i came out of the Islam religion. So what that Hebrews came out of the Sumerian?

If there is an everlasting, or eternal, gospel as proposed in the Book of Revelation, then it only stands to reason that when this everlasting gospel is corrupted by one civilization it then moves into another where it lives and is understood. Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat.

I believe we are ready (over-due) for another rinse and repeat.

reply to post by Incarnated

That's well and good, but, are you willing to do the work? To accend into the higher states, one needs be found willing to alow the will of the father to change them so that they will fit within The Will of God rather then the Will of the Creature.

Wonderfully stated!

Starred your post.

Originally posted by Buddy420
For the Christians: If you have faith that your beliefs are right, why must you argue to justify them, just accept that others disagree.

For the New Agers(like me): I can see the parallels in the OT and more ancient sumerian text, but why should the Christian's have to accept it.

Both are really old texts that can be spun in all different directions depending on what world view you need it to fit. My point is that unless you were there at the time of their creation you don't have any more true knowledge than anyone else. Let's just agree to disagree, and have that be it. Bickering hasn't got us any closer to the truth in the last thousand years and will not in the next thousand(assuming humankind makes it that far).

If you have been on ATS for long enough you will realize some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing. Don't let some one else's world view get you bent out of shape, after all it's not like their putting a gun to your head and telling you to convert to theirs or die.

Time's are gettin' tuff and now more than ever we need to come together despite our differences.

I actually respect this post quite a bit. Personally, I take no ought with what another believes. I just have problems with people who make up things and then apply them to the Bible. (btw.. I am not a christian, but I do believe in the G-d of the Bible).

I actually came to a point where I didn't believe ANY OF IT!! All over this board, it is VERY evident that I had written off the WHOLE bible and what it taught. I was NOT going to accept it until I could accept all of it because that is what CRAWLED under my skin the most about Christianity. They take bits and pieces and then excuse away the parts they don't like. IT is called hypocrisy and it IS why the Bible is one of the most hated yet most used Book. It has power, but because people want to use it for self improvement, the power is lacking. Those who aren't out for self improvement but no little of the Bible see those who claim to be following and it is a turn off. There is no power. There are only.. well, new agers who can't bring themselves to say what they are and so they call themselves "christians" and say that it is G-d's way.

See, I had to forsake the WHOLE teaching. How can you believe Jesus and not believe the G-d in whom he spoke of? People deny G-d because they don't like or understand that He is a jealous G-d. They don't like what they are seeing of Israel now and they contribute this to G-d and wonder where G-d is. Since He is allowing for "His chosen" to act this way, He must be a bad G-d or a made up G-d. I am consistent if nothing else and so I had to abandon the Book as my basis of belief since I could not reconcile all of this in my head.

One day, I realized almost EVERY other text and such is paralleled in the Bible and so, on a whim, I approached the Book as a new story that I had no previous knowledge of; and like any story, I started at the beginning (not the end). I DID not approach it this time as a self help guide. I was just reading the story as it is written and nothing else. Was not even searching for G-d in it or needing to fit my beliefs into its pages.

Suddenly, the questions that I had that I couldn't reconcile were all there. I remember reading Ezekiel 16 and my mouth dropped because suddenly I understood G-d's jealousy; and the understanding WAS NOT mine for it came just from reading what was written. No excuse needed, no denial of His jealousy... I understood because it is what it is. I related to G-d rather than doing what I was taught to do and what many on here are teaching, which is to say that G-d relates to us. Suddenly I understood the holiness in His jealousy. I need not explain it because all you have to do is read it for yourself. To deny this part of His nature IS to deny the G-d of the Bible.

I also was amazed to see the brilliance of G-d choosing Israel to show Himself and having them document their journey. There is no truth spared from what is written. It was written BY Jews and yet it is a CONFESSION of their hearts and how deceitful they can be. This is not something I would want to write down about myself if I wanted to glorify myself and yet they did write because they didn't have a choice. they were in a covenent with the Holy G-d. (Everyone knows the chinese curse "May you live in interesting times" and how it sounds nice but is in fact, a curse... well, this is what that covenent has become to Israel. Everyone thinks that Israel is trying to make themselves special by this covenent with G-d and yet it is a curse to them since they decided to turn against G-d. He has exposed them before they have carried out their selfish plans and He did it with their hands... and when they get what they think they can attain w/out Him, He will destroy it.)

I had recently looked into the Zionist movement and the state of Israel and realized these people DID NOT write this of their own accord and have been doing everything they can to discredit it and to discredit G-d because they couldn't break the covenent with G-d though they had turned against G-d.

The fact that all the world has an expose of the men in the shadows and that it IS DETAILED concerning their character and that they were responsible for these writings even existing it AMAZING to me!!! THAT is the brilliance of a G-d if you ask me. It was in this book that I saw G-d did NOT break His covenent with Israel and that it still WILL be through them that He shows Himself to all the world regardless of their hearts. He is allowing these men to steer the events of the world for just this purpose; yet He has given a written account detailing and exposing them for what they are BEFORE He exposes it and He used THEIR HANDS to write it out. I love a brilliant plan and it just doesn't get much more brilliant than this and it is all there... right in front of us.

Yet so many don't see this proof of G-d because they are looking for it all to fit into their lives. G-d wants to fellowship with us, yes... but there is only one way this can be done. Trust and obey. People can only trust and obey when they understand WHY they are trusting and obeying. He knows we need proof and He gives it. The only people that will see this though are the ones aren't seeking how it fits into their world, but how they fit into His world because they KNOW without them, He will still go on. That and they actually have to be willing to give up ALL their understanding and admit, THEY DON'T KNOW.

I am not special because I got to this place. In fact, I GOT to this place because I realized how "not special" I was.

I went through 9 LONG months knowing I didn't know anything of real importance.

In the end, the best part was, He didn't need me to prove it and DOESN'T need me to prove it to anyone. In fact, someone that needs to prove their belief to you does so because they aren't really sure themselves. I know this because I can now freely admit I was the same way. But once He proves it, you realize you can do nothing to prove it to anyone else.

That is why I say, I am not here to PROVE HIM to you. But I will be happy to show you where *your* way doesn't line up with His way only by using His words. *your* way PALES GREATLY in comparison to *His* way and it isnfor that reason that I say "you are wrong" to people. Once you see His way, the other ways seem silly and yes, so full of man's ego. Also once you see His way, YOU will feel silly because it is written out plainly and yet all this time, you thought it had to be something else. (that's the ego in us)

If someone wants to believe their way, that is fine; but unless your belief lines up with what G-d said, admit it is YOUR way and don't get in the way of He is doing... I say that for YOUR sake, not His.

[edit on 9-12-2008 by justamomma]

Neat, another Zeitgeist fan. Yes I know where your theories evolved from, I've seen the film on the internet. I appreciate your fervor for your own authority on truth. However, you failed to mention the validity of Bible prophecy. Are Christians supposed to reject the historical accuracy of Bible prophesy?

reply to post by papabryant


Very close ...thanks ....the only problem is most of us (including myself) has just as hard a time of understanding the process by which a computer (and networking)works LOL .

But it was pretty simply put by and yes it is very similar ..thanks again for the help ...

reply to post by precociousmonkey


God is not some mystical magical fantasy ..
He is a living breath entity ...(Spirit) which is what we are inside this body ..(the entity of the spirit you )
Are you real ?