Was Judas the Traitor a Good Guy, While Paul the Apostle a Bad One?

Originally posted by MatrixProphet


It is not surprising that the Valentinus Gnostics believed in the bridal chamber also. Here is an explanation of the bridal chamber from gnosis.org:

"In regard to salvation, or the fate of the spirit and soul after death, one needs to be aware that help is available. Valentinus, the greatest of Gnostic teachers, taught that Christ and Sophia await the spiritual man -- the pneumatic Gnostic -- at the entrance of the Pleroma, and help him to enter the bridechamber of final reunion."

I actually have two posts for you, since there were two for me. So, this one first.

In my case, I started experiencing things first, and then looked for answers as to what was happening to me. I went through many of the ancient texts and read things just like what you've presented above - but they only held little clues not the whole story. Now, no two people are alike, so logically, no two experiences will be the same, but they should at least share common denominators of some type of essence. With that being said, the closest I have come to finding something in text, that is "close" to what I experienced (and am still going through but now on a completely different level) is from an early church father, who was known as "Symeon the New Theologian."

Given, there's not a whole lot out there to read about him, this is where I made my first connection that something very serious is going on. He speaks of the "divine spark" as something that each Christian possesses but it's something that most people don't fertilize with the word or properly fan it, into a flame. He further says, "there is one out of a thousand or better out of ten thousand, who has arrived at mystical contemplation."

Now, I'm not the smartest woman in the world, but here we have a very early Eastern Church Father - practically quoting the Gospel of Thomas, which the Church did not include in the known Biblical Canon. It just prooves to me and I don't care what others think, that at the very least, the Gospel of Thomas was not included deliberately and was reserved for those with what I refer to, as a higher Cristology than most. Basically, the vast majority of mankind has stunted spiritual growth, through deceptive means of control. In fact, most of mankind is so into themselves and materialistic things, they could care less about what goes on in the religous world. There are also those who really believe but don't "know" and they just go through the motions on a weekly basis. Then there are people like you, who know you've been a bit hoodwinked and are willing to go as far down the rabbit hole as necessary to find the truth.

And knowing the truth is all that really matters. So, don't go tossing aside your Bible just yet if you want to know the truth - because there is way more gnosis in it than you think.


[edit on 7-12-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

Yes I was, at the age of 13. I was speaking in front of audiences at the age of 8. I had read the Bible from cover to cover twice by my mid-teens and many more times by my early 40's. I am in my mid 50's now, and I am female also.

It took me many years to step up and question anomalies that always bothered me. Amazingly enough, I received much spirit and countless answers after I left religion.

Spirituality aside from religion, has a quality about it that does not allow for long term misinterpretation, IME. If you are truly open to the need to know more, the answers come. It is mandatory to leave the filters behind!

But, this is not to say that I didn't live with many of my former beliefs for awhile! It is too hard to let go of a lifetime of beliefs without struggle and it can be lonely, because it is so unfamiliar.

I haven't been inside a church in years and my family loves to remind me, that I'm not very wordly.Lol I'm not one to start threads but if you ever do a thread about real experiences through given knowlege (gnosis) I'll participate. I won't bare my soul, but I wouldn't mind comparing notes.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Christ!

 

The Holy Spirit does not command, which is why the concept of commandments damns those who fear them. There can be no commandments among equals. The Holy Spirit teaches equality to equals until they know what he knows, equal to him.

In one of my many conversations with God I asked; "What does perfection mean?"

He answered, "In one word: FREEDOM."

He let me digest that thought and I asked for further explanation.

He said, "Freedom from anything that acts as a ball and chain in your life."

I came to understand that this especially applied to teachings, beliefs or doctrines that were bogging me down in my spirituality.

Yes, decisions and choices leading to freedom must be motivated by love, not fear. Fear based decisions lead to captivity. Perhaps this is the greatest difference between the merciful gospel of Jesus and the sacrificial gospel of Paul.

Christ!

New theory: The relationship between Jesus and Paul is an exact mirror (in reverse) of the relationship between David and Saul.

Lies within lies within truth. That's the Mystery of the Bible for you.

[edit on 8-12-2008 by Eleleth]

Originally posted by Eleleth
New theory: The relationship between Jesus and Paul is an exact mirror (in reverse) of the relationship between David and Saul.

Lies within lies within truth. That's the Mystery of the Bible for you.

David and Saul were lovers.
Jesus and Paul never met in the flesh.

reply to post by MatrixProphet
Has anyone ever wondered why theres 66 books in the Bible?Was this due to the Nicean Council or is this a clue.Lets see....6 is the number of man....66 books in the KJV.... a man who ingests the same could be 6(man) of the 66(man manipulated messg) ie 666.Anti Christ also means substitute for Christ or that which replaces Christ, is Paul subverting or trying to substitute his goodnews (with the church at Romes blessing so as to control the mssg)with that of Christs teachings?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

And knowing the truth is all that really matters. So, don't go tossing aside your Bible just yet if you want to know the truth - because there is way more gnosis in it than you think.

Actually, we agree. Please go back to my OP and re-read it. We are saying the same thing of the Bible!....Hidden clues, Sacred Secrets!

but if you ever do a thread about real experiences through given knowlege (gnosis) I'll participate. I won't bare my soul, but I wouldn't mind comparing notes.

That is fine with me, and if some come out in this thread I would consider it an honor!

[edit on 8-12-2008 by MatrixProphet]

First of all Judas is not responsible for Christ’s death.
MAN and Satan are responsible, both indirectly and directly.

Man, for his disregard for life, his love of money over love for his fellow man, etc.
Satan, by entering into Judas and using Judas as a tool to betray Christ. (Luke 22:3)

Sure, Judas (filled with Satan) fulfilled the *hands on* part of the prophecy (of betrayal in sin) but all men are responsible in direct for the need of Christ’s birth, subsequent death, and Resurrection = our chance at being freed from everlasting death and it’s separating us from God and Christ.

In Judas we learn even as we call ourselves followers of Christ - we also can have sin (Satan) in us, yet still be forgiven when we truly repent.
Just as Satan entered Judas to betray Christ - (even at the last supper Satan was there doing his best on Judas - John 13:2), Yet after when Judas realized what he’d done he did repent with all his heart.
And though he killed himself I truly believe since Judas never blasphemed the Holy Spirit (as Peter did) Judas is even now well within the house of God.

As for Peter being a disciple and friend of the Jesus, I see more *sin* in Peter’s denying Christ than Judas's *selling him out* (while being used as a tool of Satan.)

Peter - with no help from any other than himself I might add - and his fear of repercussions of knowing the Christ - betrayed his brother and friend Jesus in order to save his own skin.

In my heart I feel Peter, who swore to love Christ and in his own words even die for Him, sinned against the Holy Spirit by denying even knowing Jesus.
I feel only fear and trembling when I think of denying even knowing Christ and I pray to God I’m never in Peter’s position.

As for Christ and the last supper - telling his disciples one of them would betray him.
I don’t think Christ, at that time, knew it was Judas Satan would enter and use as the tool to deliver Christ into the hands of the officials.
Christ knew it would be one of them, even told them so, but know it was Judas? I don't think so.
Why?
Because I believe Jesus would have pulled Judas aside, spoken with him, and then Jesus would have given himself up to the officials before letting Judas *take the rap*.
I truly think Jesus in His loving and giving and selflessness would have given himself up to save the one beloved apostle who was destined to betray him .
But it was destined for Man to Betray Christ.

Poor Judas.
He’s been given a bum rap ever since Man first had a name to blame Christ’s death on.
Someone to hold up to the world and point at in order to divert attention from Man’s own sin being what killed the Christ.

Oh! As for Paul?
I think he’s a misogynistic pig and one of the biggest reasons we have such trouble with the Church to date.

reply to post by Eleleth

New theory: The relationship between Jesus and Paul is an exact mirror (in reverse) of the relationship between David and Saul.

Lies within lies within truth. That's the Mystery of the Bible for you

Yes, I think we can make many analogies! Often the same story is written in many ways and many forms. Getting the message is what seems difficult for most.

reply to post by Kailassa

David and Saul were lovers.

Actually, it was allegedly; David and Saul's son Jonathan who were involved, wasn't it?

reply to post by Bnmssnit

Has anyone ever wondered why theres 66 books in the Bible?Was this due to the Nicean Council or is this a clue.Lets see....6 is the number of man....66 books in the KJV.... a man who ingests the same could be 6(man) of the 66(man manipulated messg) ie 666.Anti Christ also means substitute for Christ or that which replaces Christ, is Paul subverting or trying to substitute his goodnews (with the church at Romes blessing so as to control the mssg)with that of Christs teachings?

This is a thought provoking concept! I have to say that I never considered this aspect. A*4U!

The latter part of your post you already know that I agree with as this is the entire message of my thread. It is a cunning vehicle devised by the Gods to mislead mankind and it worked!

reply to post by silo13


Thank you for your post!

I of course was taught the same things about Judas and his role in the whole ransom sacrifice situation, but my thoughts as you can tell by the OP, is far different now. The subsequent posts tell why.

We agree on the whole Paul situation. There is whole lot of story behind this story. More will be revealed as time goes on, I am sure!

reply to post by silo13


[Yet after when Judas realized what he’d done he did repent with all his heart.
And though he killed himself I truly believe since Judas never blasphemed the Holy Spirit (as Peter did) Judas is even now well within the house of God.]

I dont know about that ..notice it says that he SAW that he was CONDEMNED ......also the son of perdition pretty much says it all .

PERDITION
1) destroying, utter destruction
a) of vessels
2) a perishing, ruin, destruction
a) of money
b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.


I believe he was alot like the situation with Esau ...(this I believe was a foreshadow of what would happen with Judas and Christ) .....
Hbr 12:16 Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Hbr 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


This scripture says that he WAS the only one who was LOST (what does lost mean to you ?) ..
Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

reply to post by Simplynoone


To me it's quite obvious.
Satan, went into Judas, and betrayed Christ.
Satan is also the one - the son of perdition, as I understood.
So, I don't see how that has anything to do with Judas at all.

As for Judas seeing he was condemned, then repenting - is that not what we all do? Know we are condemned if we continue in sin, so therefore, we ask for forgiveness calling on the Blood of our Brother Christ, and repent? (Though it should be we want to be more like Christ and not let Him down so we sin no more out of love not fear of reprisal)...

I'm not saying you’re right or wrong, or I'm right, just saying how I *see* it, and isn't that what we all are left with in the end, how we see things is what our salvation will be based on?

But that's a whole other thread! lol

Thanks you two!

Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

To me it's quite obvious.
Satan, went into Judas, and betrayed Christ.
Satan is also the one - the son of perdition, as I understood.
So, I don't see how that has anything to do with Judas at all.

As for Judas seeing he was condemned, then repenting - is that not what we all do? Know we are condemned if we continue in sin, so therefore, we ask for forgiveness calling on the Blood of our Brother Christ, and repent? (Though it should be we want to be more like Christ and not let Him down so we sin no more out of love not fear of reprisal)...

I'm not saying you’re right or wrong, or I'm right, just saying how I *see* it, and isn't that what we all are left with in the end, how we see things is what our salvation will be based on?

But that's a whole other thread! lol

Thanks you two!

I am just not sure he would have killed himself had he really been seriously repentant ..he would have known then that killing yourself is not exactly the right thing to do ...he murdered himself ..I hardly think he would have done that had he known in his heart that he was forgiven ...

Yep it just my take on it ...I am sure neither of us would really know for sure.The Lord is only one who knows for sure ..

I have always been of the opinion though that even someone who kills themselves could at the last minute before they take their last breath ..could very well repent and be saved ..(just an opinion ..not staking my life on that though) ..I know I myself am pretty scared about taking my own life ..I would not want to take that chance ...


[edit on 8-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Kailassa

 

David and Saul were lovers.

Actually, it was allegedly; David and Saul's son Jonathan who were involved, wasn't it?

You are absolutely right.
Thanks for pointing that out.

reply to post by silo13


What I wonder about is Esau ...tried to repent ...sought repentence with tears even and could not find it ....what does that mean actually ?
That in his heart he really was not sorry ?
Whats your take on that ?

reply to post by Simplynoone

If you had been held in the "bosom" of God,
known his immeasurable love making you one with him,
known his utter lack of judgementalism,
you would be reluctant to suggest God would ever damn anyone,
even Judas.

The closest we see to it in this world is when a trusting, hungry baby sees its mother is offering her breast.

A way to experience it when we are older is meditation during sex with a loved and respected life-partner. The bliss can take your spirit through your partner to feel a connection with God that makes normal sexual bliss dull by comparison.

God is not judgement. God is pure joyfulness and delight. Even the many names various people have given the many faces of God are honey for the soul.

When Jesus said: "what you do for the least of these my brethren, you do also unto me,"
he was not only saying that we should feed the hungry and give drink to the thirsty,
he was saying that if, through him, you know God, you will inevitably radiate God's love to all others and care for those in need.

To know God's love is to be filled with God's love, and to be filled with God's love is to have it constantly spilling over.

And when God's love is spilling forth from your heart, you will find God does whatever little miracles are needed to enable you to stand in for him to take care of those who need him.

We are each, in our way, every bit as bad as Judas.

But we are the babes of God, and he loves us anyway.

Originally posted by silo13
I feel only fear and trembling when I think of denying even knowing Christ and I pray to God I’m never in Peter’s position.

Are you Christ?

Ask any Christian if s/he is Christ at night, and I prophecy that s/he will deny it three times before the dawn.

There is no difference.

Christ!