Was Judas the Traitor a Good Guy, While Paul the Apostle a Bad One?

reply to post by jkm1864


Hi. Such theories are popular, but according to Scripture itself this man's wickedness was outstandingly damnable.

In an intimate prayer with His Father, Jesus, speaking of his disciples (shortly before Judas brought the mob to arrest him) said:

...none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Gospel of John 17:12

My (authoritative) dictionary defines 'perdition' as

eternal damnation; Hell

The lesson we are to draw is that the more a person knows about the Son of God, the more severely they will be judged if they turn away from the forgiveness he offers. Judas didn't just turn away - he decided to rise up against Christ and facilitate his execution (for a handsome fee, of course).

The gravity of his wickedness stems from the fact he had personally witnessed Christ's teaching and miracles over the course of 3 years, leaving him without excuse before his Maker. The only reason someone with so much 1st-hand knowledge of Christ (-the one who never committed a sin and only lived to bless others for all eternity at incalculable personal cost-) could turn against him was that deep in their heart they loved spiritual darkness rather than light.

This is how Jesus put it:

This is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Gospel of John 3:19&20





[edit on 6/12/08 by pause4thought]

Judas may have been a historical character; I don't know. But his betrayal is also a larger allegory for the Jewish people rejecting Jesus.

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
The Bridal Chamber rite is the mystical union between mankind and God (on a one on one basis it's not a group thing) - this is what Jesus really brought and it is being surpressed. Paul actually left hints about mysteries - even though he didn't expound on them thoroughly or in their entirety, he at least mentions them. And nothing ever changes, everyone always wants to shoot the messengers.

The core of the Valentinian gnosis was that each of us has a divine counterpart, unfallen, with whom we could experience a mystical union. This is the meaning behind the fall of Sophia, where Sophia represents the lower passions, the soul fallen into the world, and Christ the divine intellect. Christ comes to redeem Sophia, and they unite to form a perfect Æonic syzygy.

I seen you quoted Pagels - she's smart but she don't really know the truth, and the evidence for that lies in her guesswork. She completely doesn't get the Gospel of Thomas, which prooves she's not in the loop of knowing. Now, the Gospel of John was often found amongst the other Gnostic texts, and we know for a fact it's quite a bit different than the other three - don't at some point we question 'why is this so?' I can tell you this much - whatever I say from this point on - puts me in Judas' shoes. That may not make sense to you now, but maybe someday it will.

I agree! Pagels does not understand the first thing about Gnosticism, and it is ridiculous that the only real criticism of her work comes from Christian apologists. That so many people take her has a legitimate scholar shows how superficially most people take the whole movement.

[edit on 6-12-2008 by Eleleth]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
The Bible according to MatrixProphet: “The Bible is a lie, within a lie, within the Truth.”

MatrixProphet,
Like Sherlock Holmes, you are closing in on the answers by examining the clues. You are determining who killed the gospel, and what was the original gospel as told by Jesus. You could think of the gospel as a Rubrics Cube that was solved by Jesus and passed on. As each one handled it, and interpreted the colors through mental filters, each one 'fixed' it to meet his worldview. The result is that the gospel is mixed up, and reduced to meaningless jargon and sophistry. Such was Paul's contribution, among many others.

Mind you, the closest associates of Jesus did not necessarily understand where he was coming from. Three who were nearest his understanding were Thomas, Mary [Magdalene], and Stephen. These are written out of the pop versions. Stephen was stoned, so we are told. How hard would it have been for the writer of Acts to expound on Stephens teachings? Rather, the writer elevates Paul in the esteem of the reader by associating him with this teacher and that. It is a way to establish authority by association...in other words, name dropping. The result is that Stephen's gospel has been stoned out of the historical record. Stephen's gospel was the legendary "Q" source. It's authors were three, including Stephen, who were attached to James, but, did not trust him to pass on an accurate account of Jesus' teachings. Note well, Stephen was stoned...James was not. For James was a polititian. And for this reason, Paul and James associate, Paul himself a "paulititian".

What politics? Namely, to carry on some aspects of Judaism in relation to Jesus teachings. Primarily, James and Paul continued to embrace the gOd of biblical genesis. This is an example of "leaven of the Pharisees", of which Jesus warned. The gOd of the Pharisee, according to Jesus, is "the devil". Jesus exorted anyone and everyone to "call no man father". Reason being that man traces his genesis back to man's maker. And man's maker is not *Our Father*. So, to call oneself the son of man is to deny one's divine inheritance, and call another gOd "father".

It is this aspect of Paul's gospel that dilutes the gospel of Jesus, and renders it meaningless. Most of the apostles still embraced such gOd, for to deny such gOd was considered blasphemy, and endangered the life of the one who denies such gOd as not more than an idol. Thomas was most willing to open his mind to such a possibility, and was told some things in private about that, lest he be subject to stoning by the rest of the apostles. This gives you some insight as to the worldview rift that existed early among those who were interested in what Jesus had to say and demonstrate.

Jesus could not be betrayed, because he did not believe that victimhood is the truth. Rather, victimhood is false, and seems true only via deception, appearances and illusion. So, to suggest that he was betrayed clues you in to how the pop gospel writers are overlaying their worldview upon Jesus'.

Judas was drunk the night he took money from a Roman officer to reveal the whereabouts of Jesus. Judas wanted money to go see a prostitute. The officers of the high priest were not involved...neither was there any interogation that night by the high priest. Rather, Pontius Pilate wanted to assert himself as boss among the Jews, upon their most holy holiday. Pilate was looking for Jesus, who was gaining in popularity, to terrorize the people into further submission.

Christ!





[edit on 6-12-2008 by Christ!]

reply to post by Simplynoone

Matrix ..can you tell me then why they killed Paul if he was a false prophet ?
They would not have killed him if he was not teaching preaching truth ...it is the truth that gets people killed ....

To answer your question to some degree now and perhaps more later, I will use the same Christian follower of Paul, the Biblical scholar; A.N. Wilson:

"One does not wish to diminish the greatness of Paul in the eyes of the reader, but from now onwards there is an element of tragic comdey in the story-For the plans of God as they have been specially revealed to Paul just don't work out-The New Israel will thereby be established -the Lord will come. That is what is supposed to happen. What in fact happened is that Paul was to be arrested by the Romans for causing yet another riot- Luke wishes us to believe that Paul was wholly innocent in the matter and that the riot which followed was the result of a mistake."

Remember, he is a believer but does at times show in his book that he is trying to reconcile Paul's actions in light of being Great in his eyes!:

"That a riot occurred in the temple area and that it was provoked by Paul seems more likely than not, since Luke evidently feels that he has to explain it. The seemly language with which Paul is made to speak to the crowds is somewhat at variance with the impassioned language of Paul's own letters. We read of him giving one of his three accounts of the 'conversion' on the road to Damascus." (:lol

Further...:

"(Jerusalem) - a city where many of Paul's most intense and self contradictory visions and changes of heart had been experienced."

If we build a personality profile of Paul as many scholars have - it gives us insight as to who this man really may have been! He showed belligerence, and arrogance, along with exaggerating and false prophesying. Plus the fact that he did not get along well with many of Jesus disciples!!

Should that not be a clue? Jesus actually hand-picked his men, yet many of these friends of Jesus did not like Paul! Paul only claimed to have had a commission by Jesus, but was not authenticated.

Everyone has the opportunity to read and imagine what they will!

reply to post by pause4thought

It seems your goal on ATS is to propagate ignorance by repeating the same old nonesense time after time, hoping enough people don't know their Bible or have missed/forgotten previous rebuttals of these same old claims.

Well at least it is relatively new nonsense! Not archaic information that is now being discovered to have many faults. Why, if it was word for word inspired?

I do believe that man has been duped and I feel that it is necessary to at least throw in my perspective. We ARE about denying ignorance! If I am a fool, then I do not think that what I am saying would be of any consequence to you.

It is your choice to not throw pearls at me!! Kick the dust off your feet and move on.

reply to post by Eleleth

The core of the Valentinian gnosis was that each of us has a divine counterpart, unfallen, with whom we could experience a mystical union. This is the meaning behind the fall of Sophia, where Sophia represents the lower passions, the soul fallen into the world, and Christ the divine intellect. Christ comes to redeem Sophia, and they unite to form a perfect Æonic syzygy.

You can see the analogies to Eve with Sophia, also.

Clement wrote that the Valentinians regarded Catholic Christians “as simple people to whom they attributed faith, while they think that gnosis is in themselves. Through the excellent seed that is to be found in them they are by nature redeemed, and their gnosis is as far removed from faith as the spiritual from the physical”[13].

Do we see a similarity with Paul?:

"Paul says he discovered "hidden mysteries" and "secret wisdom," which, he explains, he shares only with those Christians he considers "mature" but not with everyone. Many Biblical scholars-argue that Paul does not claim to have a secret tradition;such a claim would apparently make Paul sound too "gnostic." Paul himself taught this secret wisdom, he says, not to everyone, and not publicly, but only to a select few whom he considered to be spiritually mature."

Since it is thought that Paul may not have been a natural Jew after all, but a Gentile, it is not surprising that he could have brought Hellenistic beliefs and teachings into HIS Christianity.

Thank you for your post!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Do we see a similarity with Paul?:

"Paul says he discovered "hidden mysteries" and "secret wisdom," which, he explains, he shares only with those Christians he considers "mature" but not with everyone. Many Biblical scholars-argue that Paul does not claim to have a secret tradition;such a claim would apparently make Paul sound too "gnostic." Paul himself taught this secret wisdom, he says, not to everyone, and not publicly, but only to a select few whom he considered to be spiritually mature."

Since it is thought that Paul may not have been a natural Jew after all, but a Gentile, it is not surprising that he could have brought Hellenistic beliefs and teachings into HIS Christianity.

Thank you for your post!

Yes, it is significant as well that Valentinus claimed to have inherited apostolic succession from Paul. I have actually been trying to edit that Wikipedia article to add some sort of coherency to what right now is a pretty jumbled mess; I would invite anyone who knows anything about the subject to contribute. One of the aspects of the Valentinian system that has never been properly investigated is the connection between Horos, the Cross, and Horus. Is this the answer to all of the alleged parallels between Jesus and Horus?

But I tend to regard Valentinus as one of the first corrupters Gnostic beliefs. In his system, the Demiurge isn't an evil being, but merely subordinate to the supreme God. He seems to have taken the original Sethian Gnosticism, which was very much something practiced by Jewish ascetic hermits who lived in the desert, into a system that would be more palpable to Hellenistic Pagan urbanites. In that sense, he is very much like Paul as well!

[edit on 6-12-2008 by Eleleth]

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Well first of all Paul was BOLD and COURAGES and UNASHAMED of talking about the Lord .............and smart and gifted ..
And called by the Lord to (LEAD and TEACH) all of the apostles ...
I can certainly see why they would be jelious of him cant you ?

I have friends (Christian ones) who are jelious of my walk with the Lord .due to the fact that I do my very best to always do what is right (that upsets them because they cannot even try or dont try even) ...I also know the word very well .(Due to the fact that I have read it thousands of times over and over again ) ...they do not read it so of course they are jelious that I know it and they do not ...Also they get jelious that I have so many friends who come to me for advice ..(instead of coming to them) .....
I am also bold (they are not ) ....and I am not afraid of people hating me or yelling at me or whatever because of the word and the fact that I love the Lord ......and I am not ashamed of the fact that I am a believer ..and will talk about my Lord even UNTO DEATH ...

Paul was like that too ...I think he made them all feel insignificant (which was why they did not like him ) because none of them were doing the works that Paul was they were still pretty carnal in their thinking ....and Paul had the Holy Spirit all over him ....and could just walk down the street and people would believe due to the Holy Spirit shining on them from his countenance alone .... .
Which he was alot like Jesus as far as that goes ...
Just the fact that he had done so many things wrong before he became a believer tells me that he had the best testimony of all the apostles ..And an example of how the Lord can take the Chief among sinners (Which Paul admmited that he was) and turn them into the greatest of the apostles ..
That was quite the GLORY for GOD wouldnt you say ? Paul the Christian killer turned into Paul the greatest and the most powerful of the followers of Jesus Christ ...........Which was why I believe the whole message when it comes to what Christ wanted us to see about Paul and his story ......

I personally think that all of us should be like Paul ....if we were even half of what Paul was ..there may be more healings and miracles and people coming to know the Lord ...They should be able to feel the Holy Spirit so much in us that they cannot turn away from it (the Light) (Like Paul was) and it does not happen in our days much at all ..
Nope there has not really been another Paul since Paul .....if there was Christianity may not have such a horrible reputation as it does in our days .
Someone like Paul showed the POWERS of the HOLY SPIRIT which is what our fallen world needs more than anything right now ...




Paul was human ..and I am not even going to say he did not have faults ..in fact his faults are evident in scripture ...which is another reason why I love to read Pauls writings ...he is as strong as Christ was and as weak as we are ................that builds my faith on those days that I fail and become weak ....and my human side acts up ....reading Paul helped me through alot of those weak times ...................


PS Christians can be some of the most jelious people I have ever known ..they are always trying to outdo eachother ...so I stand by what I said ..they were jelious of Paul thats why they did not like him ..And possibly why no one likes him now (the Scholars who are slandering Paul)

I mean hey if satan could get everyone believing Paul to be a false prophet ..since he wrote most of the books in the NT then no one would believe any of the NT ...heck christians are already tossing out the OT ..now they are tossing out the NT too ...so hey they wont have to worry about being convicted of sin then would they ....

[edit on 6-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

If we build a personality profile of Paul as many scholars have - it gives us insight as to who this man really may have been! He showed belligerence, and arrogance, along with exaggerating and false prophesying. Plus the fact that he did not get along well with many of Jesus disciples!!

Should that not be a clue? Jesus actually hand-picked his men, yet many of these friends of Jesus did not like Paul! Paul only claimed to have had a commission by Jesus, but was not authenticated.

Everyone has the opportunity to read and imagine what they will!

Paul's conversion gives clues as to it's genesis.

A. Blindness
B. Force
C. A charge of "persecution".

These three should suffice to convince anyone interested in the truth that Paul's conversion was not of the Truth. To understand this, it is necessary to widen the scope of the devils domain, so-to-speak. The devils domain is all of consciousness, time, energy, images, forms, distance, action, history, past, future, earth, "the universe", and man. This is essentially a domain of black magic. For every attribute relative to the Kingdom of God, the devil's domain has a substitute and its opposite. Notwithstanding, there are substitutes for "Jesus", "Christ", "light", "good", and "real".

Man is a slave to the devils domain. For example, man believes he thinks. He does not. Man is an image that thought is expressed through. Man's actions are not actions, per se. They are the image of thought...symbols and symbolism. None of which are real. The words that come out of man's mouth are not his own. All of them go to support the domain of the devil. In other words, what is considered to be the great and lofty "universe"...is actually "hell".

In hell, it is easy to decieve man...especially those who are already throwing their weight in support of the gOd of hell, against the GoD of heaven. Paul submitted himself an ideal candidate for deception, not revelation. The transfer of a concept that is anti-gospel into Paul's little mind should not be considered unusual. The gOd of consciousness is able to download the entire bible into a man's seeming awareness. The very first sentence of the bible is a lie capable of killing anybody who would believe in it...and incite them to kill those who did not...in the name of "GoD".

The "devil" is a separation analogue [acronym: s.a.t.a.n.] in the mind of Christ. It is a machine, made by Christ, against himself. The machine, and all of its effects, constitute the "anti Christ". Christianity [translation: Christi anti], is a small part of the greater deception...the overall anti Christ. The effects of the machine constitute "the world". Such world is a world of separation. Everything in it is separated from everything else...and everything is attacking everything. Nothing lives in such world but that something else dies. And everything in it dies, regardless. Even the stars die. For light, the devil posits a huge gaseous fiery ticking time bomb near every "civilizaton". All such bombs will eventually expire in one of three ways...wiping out whatever civilization managed to breed a culture under its ominous threats, while managing to hop scotch over shifting techtonic plates that float on top of oceans of liquified molten rock.

Can any of this be real? Who makes this stuff up? It is the separation analogue, which makes itself a world that is different [separate from] everything that is real.

What is real? Christ! Christ is reality itself. Christ is the Kingdom of GoD...not a Jewish messiah/king. The anti Christ is therefore all that is unreal...all that does not truly exist....all that is imagined to be different than Christ. "The universe", as man thinks he "knows" it, is an illusion.

Christ!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

 

So to lump Paul in with Satan is just wrong, in my opinion. No one has ever given the gift that keeps on giving, except Jesus - and that is of his spirit - his Holy Spirit. People who are part of this new blood covenant can see Paul objectively for what he did contribute. The Bible says we will "all be taught by God" not just the "men".

You and I of course look at the whole NT in a different light from each other.

I Believe Satan was, and is, working with the rest of the Gods, and is only man's adversary, not Jah's. He used Paul to create Christianity with all of its Swiss cheese workings.

I seen you quoted Pagels - she's smart but she don't really know the truth, and the evidence for that lies in her guesswork.

Ah, but perhaps she is being used by Jah only as one spoke in the wheel. The object is to not worship anyone's writings, nor the individual, this I apply to the Bible and its writers, also.

I look, and am used, to find the "Sacred Secrets" within the pages of the Bible and other texts. The actual Truth is out there, but one must put the blinders aside.

I can tell you this much - whatever I say from this point on - puts me in Judas' shoes. That may not make sense to you now, but maybe someday it will.

Oh, believe me, I am not new to this scenario!

Peace to you

I would only interject to say that Satan is anyone apposed to some one else.

When it speaks of this, it is in meaning this, " An individual who stands boldly out against you."

This is the same meaning as "helper" made for Adam to complement him, not be him, but to prop him up. "For every test, there must be the death of the testator"...

Christ being in all men (having NO FORM that we should behold him), all men die yet mankind lives. "Son of man" means Mankind...the Kind(kin) of a Man...the only begotten of God.

Remember folks. Christ redeemed you, he Justified you and made you even by freely giving life to you, so he expects payment and your servitude as a body to the spirit scattered at the cross...the pouring out. Here in is the big secret....Christ is the one with the Double edged sword that issues out of his mouth....that cuts "this way and that".....saying one thing and doing another....not "letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing"

above is a joke, cause really, nothing is free, it's just part of something else.

Peace

[edit on 6-12-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

reply to post by Christ!


Wonderful post! I too have read the Gospel According to Thomas and many others. I can see that I am going to have to get my books out again and re-hash everything.

Like Sherlock Holmes, you are closing in on the answers by examining the clues. You are determining who killed the gospel, and what was the original gospel as told by Jesus.

"When you have eliminated the impossible then whatever remains however improbable must be true."

"Certainly the NT is bad history. This is impossible to deny. The texts are inconsistent, incomplete, garbled, and biased. It is possible to deconstruct the NT to the point where nothing remains but a heavily biased, dogmatic Christian mythology...On the other hand, if we accept that these stories contain some history, however garbled, we need to seek those facts that might have survived beneath the later mythological edifice." - Michael Baigent

There are many conflicting ideas as to who Q is. There is relatively new thought that it could have been Mary of Magdela! She certainly knew Jesus and may have birthed his children. Also, Lazarus may have had a hand in part of John?

Your point is well taken with Stephen, Luke and Paul:

How hard would it have been for the writer of Acts to expound on Stephens teachings? Rather, the writer elevates Paul in the esteem of the reader by associating him with this teacher and that. It is a way to establish authority by association...in other words, name dropping.

"The Gospel of Thomas contains almost no narrative. Jesus in Thomas performs no physical miracles, reveals no fulfillment of prophecy, announces no apocalyptic kingdom about to disrupt the world order, dies for no one's sins, and does not rise from the dead on Easter Sunday. His value, rather, lies in his enigmatic sayings, which are pregnant with possibility and power." - Michael Baigent

Paul was very tight with Luke and this requires close scrutiny as Luke was very committed to the Pauline cause. Essentially, what Paul wanted, Paul - got! His theories were available in his writings before the writers of the Gospels were, and hence, could color everyone's experience with Jesus and what he actually said.

Thank you! A*4u!

Originally posted by Christ!

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

If we build a personality profile of Paul as many scholars have - it gives us insight as to who this man really may have been! He showed belligerence, and arrogance, along with exaggerating and false prophesying. Plus the fact that he did not get along well with many of Jesus disciples!!

Should that not be a clue? Jesus actually hand-picked his men, yet many of these friends of Jesus did not like Paul! Paul only claimed to have had a commission by Jesus, but was not authenticated.

Everyone has the opportunity to read and imagine what they will!

Paul's conversion gives clues as to it's genesis.

A. Blindness
B. Force
C. A charge of "persecution".

These three should suffice to convince anyone interested in the truth that Paul's conversion was not of the Truth. To understand this, it is necessary to widen the scope of the devils domain, so-to-speak. The devils domain is all of consciousness, time, energy, images, forms, distance, action, history, past, future, earth, "the universe", and man. This is essentially a domain of black magic. For every attribute relative to the Kingdom of God, the devil's domain has a substitute and its opposite. Notwithstanding, there are substitutes for "Jesus", "Christ", "light", "good", and "real".

Man is a slave to the devils domain. For example, man believes he thinks. He does not. Man is an image that thought is expressed through. Man's actions are not actions, per se. They are the image of thought...symbols and symbolism. None of which are real. The words that come out of man's mouth are not his own. All of them go to support the domain of the devil. In other words, what is considered to be the great and lofty "universe"...is actually "hell".

In hell, it is easy to decieve man...especially those who are already throwing their weight in support of the gOd of hell, against the GoD of heaven. Paul submitted himself an ideal candidate for deception, not revelation. The transfer of a concept that is anti-gospel into Paul's little mind should not be considered unusual. The gOd of consciousness is able to download the entire bible into a man's seeming awareness. The very first sentence of the bible is a lie capable of killing anybody who would believe in it...and incite them to kill those who did not...in the name of "GoD".

The "devil" is a separation analogue [acronym: s.a.t.a.n.] in the mind of Christ. It is a machine, made by Christ, against himself. The machine, and all of its effects, constitute the "anti Christ". Christianity [translation: Christi anti], is a small part of the greater deception...the overall anti Christ. The effects of the machine constitute "the world". Such world is a world of separation. Everything in it is separated from everything else...and everything is attacking everything. Nothing lives in such world but that something else dies. And everything in it dies, regardless. Even the stars die. For light, the devil posits a huge gaseous fiery ticking time bomb near every "civilizaton". All such bombs will eventually expire in one of three ways...wiping out whatever civilization managed to breed a culture under its ominous threats, while managing to hop scotch over shifting techtonic plates that float on top of oceans of liquified molten rock.

Can any of this be real? Who makes this stuff up? It is the separation analogue, which makes itself a world that is different [separate from] everything that is real.

What is real? Christ! Christ is reality itself. Christ is the Kingdom of GoD...not a Jewish messiah/king. The anti Christ is therefore all that is unreal...all that does not truly exist....all that is imagined to be different than Christ. "The universe", as man thinks he "knows" it, is an illusion.

Christ!

I was just thinking, "Jesus Christ, when is someone going to tell the truth"....Christ! Good Job

Peace

reply to post by Eleleth


The Sethians saw themselves as the fulfillment of a divine race:

"In the Gospel of Judas and other Sethian texts, the human generations are distinguished from 'that generation,' the great generation of Seth, that is, the gnostics. Only those of 'that generation' know the true nature of Jesus." - Herbert Krosney

The Valentinian Gnosticism can be compared to Paul's Christianity, both were opposed to law yet created law! Which created an irony as the principle of Christianity was to get away from the Judaic laws (Jesus teachings going awry?, but did the opposite! Out of Christianity, as history will testify, was created a huge body of canon law.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
reply to post by Christ!

 

Wonderful post! I too have read the Gospel According to Thomas and many others. I can see that I am going to have to get my books out again and re-hash everything.

There are many conflicting ideas as to who Q is. There is relatively new thought that it could have been Mary of Magdela! She certainly knew Jesus and may have birthed his children. Also, Lazarus may have had a hand in part of John?

One of the most interesting Gnostic texts, and paradoxically the least known these days, is the "Naassene Sermon," which (according to them) contains the teachings delivered by James the Just to Mary Magdalene. It is extremely difficult to follow, as our only knowledge of it comes from a garbled quotation by Hippolytus. But what is interesting is that it directly addresses the Grail myth and ties the inner teachings of the Mystery religions to that of Christianity. I can't even begin to figure out what it is actually talking about, but it is worthy of study:

Excerpt, with better translation
The full text, but badly translated

In fact, it looks like the only serious exegesis of it was written in this book, which only came out four years ago! I realize this is getting extremely off-topic, but I am experiencing a rare moment of lucidity on a topic that normally makes my head spin.

[edit on 6-12-2008 by Eleleth]

Originally posted by Supercertari
Wedding Chamber:
This "sacrament" is a myth and distortion of something which, despite claims to the contrary, is persistently used in catechesis as an analogy for the love of God for His Church - The Bridegroom and the Bride. The wedding chamber is Calvary constantly revisited in the Mass. The Preface to the Eucharistic Prayer for Marriage expresses this beautifully:
"Father, all-powerful and ever-living God, we do well always and everywhere to give you thanks through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Through him you entered into a new covenant with your people.
You restored the human race to grace in the saving mystery of redemption.
You gave us a share in the divine life through our union with Christ.
You made us heirs of Christ’s eternal glory.
This outpouring of love in the new covenant of grace is symbolised in the marriage covenant that seals the love of husband and wife and reflects your divine plan of love."
The collect for a Nuptial Mass states explicitly:
"Father, you have made the bond of marriage a holy mystery, a symbol of Christ's love for his Church."

You go right ahead and keep quoting ideologies from the very group, that tossed aside Christ's Jewish roots in favor of their own flavor of how to do things. You do realize that one day Jesus is going to look at the vast majority of people, and say 'I never knew you.'

The whole of Christianity is about initiation into knowing God and you have allowed yourself to believe that initiation ends with the eucharist? You celebrate the cup (third one of the Seder) of redemption and totally neglect the fourth cup of the actual kingdom, which IS the cup of consummation.

Personal knowledge is why I'm speaking up about the Bridal Chamber and I want others to know, that the fourth cup (the one Jesus refused to drink at that dinner) is attainable now but most don't realize where it is and why they don't perceive it.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
The Sethians saw themselves as the fulfillment of a divine race:

"In the Gospel of Judas and other Sethian texts, the human generations are distinguished from 'that generation,' the great generation of Seth, that is, the gnostics. Only those of 'that generation' know the true nature of Jesus." - Herbert Krosney

Well, as the Gospel of Judas states, no-one of mortal birth is of the divine race. So this "generation" must be something spiritual, and I am willing to wager that they saw the true meaning of the words, "except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" as referring to being reborn as a member of the divine race. And this is perhaps what Jesus is alluding to when he says, "whoever does not hate father and mother cannot be my disciple."

I can't believe I'm saying this, because it makes light in such a drastic way of something so many people have taken seriously for so long, but to those of us who weren't raised in church, this sounds a lot like...

"What if Britney could sing, and it was Christina with the mediocre voice?"

It's just really, really hard to care. It also makes people come off as petty and silly to be hung up so badly for life on something so inconsequential as an old, boring book.

I sometimes almost wish I had been raised in church, every one in a while it feels like being left out. Like being a kid constantly surrounded by adoring members of the Mickey Mouse club, when you've never seen a Disney movie.

Why the insulting pop culture references? Who is a bigger pop star than Jesus? And just like being a fan of Britney, you get to be a part of a group that appreciates you just for your shared fandom, and the inverse is unfortunately true, anger and disbelief and general intolerance if you think Britney isn't the greatest thing ever.

Personally I could go the of my life without hearing people pick apart the life and times of either.

So... would you agree with these bible prophecies and song lyrics then?
John3:7
"Marvel not that I said unto thee(apostles)... 'Ye' must be born again." (reincarnated)

Matthew24:44
So 'you' too must be ready... because at an hour 'you'are not expecting 'Him'...the Son of Man... will come. (be born)

Isaiah3:4
And 'I' will give children to be 'their' Princes...
and 'babes' shall rule over them.

Revelations of Jesus12:5
And 'she' brought forth (gave birth) a 'manchild'.
'Who'... was to rule all nations with a rod of iron.

Psalm33:3
Sing unto 'Him' a 'New Song'. Play skillfully with a LOUD noise.

"Baby King"by Marc Cohn (The Rainy Season album)

"Baby King, Baby King.
You got to get ready for a Baby King.
You might dance daddy... you might sing.
But you never seen nothin' like Baby King.
It was a bright and sunny summer morn... and she said...
Get ready for a Baby King.
It wasn't too long... 'fore he was born.
Get ready for a Baby King.
You could hardly tell by the look on his face...
Get ready for a Baby King.
That pretty soon he was gonna run the place.
Get ready for a Baby King.
Now he is strong... and he is wise.
Get ready for a Baby King.
He sees right through your old diguise.
Get ready for a Baby King.
Wait till Baby King comes to town.
Get ready for a Baby King.
Baby King, Baby King...
You got to get ready for a Baby King.
You might dance daddy... you might sing.
But you never seen nothin' like a Baby King.
No Virgin Mary brought him here.
Get ready for a Baby King.
But the angels whispered in his tiny little ear.
Get ready for a Baby King.
Just to show you how to really love.
Get ready for a Baby King.
Baby King, Baby King...
You got to get ready for a Baby King.
You might dance daddy... you might sing.
But you never seen nothin' like a... Baby King.

A Rock n Roll Him Book @..... www.fixittom.biz...

I just wanted to say that I can witness of Paul and that Paul is of God and is Saul the 1st king of Yisrael, and the last Apostle.

Peace

OMFG OMFG I wrote a paper on this exact theory in my freshman religious studies class.....

I got an A and the opportunity to publish in the school paper, UF the alligator...I transferred prior to that, but I'm speechless right now...... I really need to check the dates of these things and cross reference them, I might have a issue with someone stealing my idea...I'm not saying thats what happened, as spontaneous ideas sometime do appear at different times in different places completely separate from each other, but this is amazing,....I'm almost in tears right now...I'm shocked