Ancient Extraterrestrials

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The basis of the ancient astronaut theory is "reading Mythology with new eyes".

At what point do you differentiate between what is supposedly allegory for(or misinterpreteted) alien visitation and what is just a story? At what point does a fiery metal dragon stop being a fiery metal dragon and become a space ship? When does a fifty-headed dog become a product of genetic engineering? When do lightening bolts stop being just lightening bolts and start being WMDs? If a giant metal eagle is supposed to be an interpretation for something someone really saw, then are we to believe Helios' chariot really pulls the Sun through the sky, or that a giant snake is responsible for thunderstorms and earthquakes?

Originally posted by SaviorComplex
If a giant metal eagle is supposed to be an interpretation for something someone really saw, then are we to believe Helios' chariot really pulls the Sun through the sky, or that a giant snake is responsible for thunderstorms and earthquakes?

Oh Hail no, man!

Everyone knows that it's giant turtles making thunder and earthquakes!

Read a book dude. Get edjumacated!

Harte

reply to post by SaviorComplex


excuse the long response


There is no doubt that myths have become more and more and more distorted over time. This is similar to the game were someone whispers the original sentences into ones éar, then the sentence goes through a whole group of ears and comes out on the other side as something nonsensical.

In comparing - for example - the Myths of the God Maui...we can see similarities between them all but also differences. The Maori of New Zealand tell the myth slightly different than the Hawaiians. And the christian missionary who put the myth on paper will add his own bias into the mix.

From those slight differences of the story from tribe to tribe we can conclude that falsehoods and fiction have been added to the original tale.

In Tonga, where the story might still be a bit closer to truth, Maui was a "wise man" who taught people how to make fire. In Tahiti, where the story has become more distorted, Maui is suddenly a God who swallowed the sun and therefore knew the secrets of fire. (This is just an example Im inventing here so that I dont have to go back and look through the books).

Now...if I actually put the effort into it (which I wont, since its just an internet board afterall), I could give you - realistically speaking - about 500 different myths from around the world which all essentially tell the same story. That of different beings coming from the sky, landing and sharing knowledge and then going back up to the sky.

The descriptions of this incident greatly vary. Sometimes its an egg coming down. Sometimes a metal dragon. Sometimes a bird. Sometimes someone sitting in a "bird". Sometimes a flying chariot. Sometimes a flying serpent.

I wonder...if I went into the effort of laying out these 500+ stories with their relevant passages, side by side...

...would any of you skeptics say "Wait a minute. There just might be some real and very distantly ancient event behind this. There might be some true core to these legends."

Just maybe.

Saying "maybe" is vastly different than the arrogant Inquisition that ran over south america declaring everything that didnt match their beliefs as "nonsense" or "work of the devil".

Whats more: Why "make up ones mind" about it today? Why is there the need, within the skeptics community, to have "made-up-ones-mind" that extraterrestrials "never" visited the earth.

There is no need for such a final conclusion. Nobody is hurt by leaving the concept open and undecided.

So you ask: When does a metal dragon become a spaceship? It becomes one when

1. Compared to other sky-god myths.
2. When it flies up into "the dark sea" (space)
3. When it carries passengers
4. When it spits fire and makes a lot of noise
5. When it is said, for example, "that it reaches a place in 1 hour that others would need 12 weeks for"
6. When it is understood that if you dont have the vocabulary to describe technology you have no choice but to describe it in other words.

Just maybe.



[edit on 18-12-2008 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Skyfloating
There is no doubt that myths have become more and more and more distorted over time.

Then if they become more and more distorted, how can you say they are evidence for anything other than a story? If they are based on real events, but have become so distorted, how can you then assume it is not based on a mundane event remembered over time to be supernatural (a chain of events illustrated yourself)?

It seems you are picking and choosing, to fit your theory, what is allegory and what isn't allegory. For example...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
1. Compared to other sky-god myths.
2. When it flies up into "the dark sea" (space)

You take it literal that the gods came from the skies, but to fit your theory, to change the "dark sea" into allegory. (I wish I knew what legend you were refering to...)

Further, taking a sky-god to be literal, that someone actually came from the sky, can be problematic. For example, while Zeus is a "sky-god" he did not come from the sky; Thor was a "sky-god," but did not come from the sky, and so forth.

reply to post by SaviorComplex


The "flying up into the dark sea" comes from ancient egypt. But most myths refer to "the heavens" or the actual sky (in many languages there is no difference).

I would like to remind you that it was actually religion that transformed the word "heavens" into something not simply meaning sky but meaning something supernatural.

Again, if I were to lay out 500 stories from different parts of the globe all essentially talking of people going up to the sky and coming down from it, wouldnt you find that the least bit odd?

I would not be "choosing" what is and what isnt allegory, because they ALL involve flying around in the sky.

Do you dare say you have reached a final conclusion of ETs never having visited us?

I dont think you would say that.

I recommend to watch this from 25:10 till like 55:00 minutes and listen carefully.

Learn something from the past

greetings Lunica

Sky,

Re. the Baigong pipes, I don't see what's wrong with the explanation anyone that bothers to look could find at wiki:

Natural concretionary pipe-like features, which are quite similar to the Baigong Pipes, occur in the Navajo Sandstone and other sandstones of Southwestern United States in the form of hematite "pipes". Hematite also occurs as other masses of diagenetic "ironstone" that exhibit a wide and amazing range of bizarre shapes, which can be described as both "strangely shaped stones" and "rusty scraps". For example, strangely shaped stones, pipe-like features, and other concretionary masses have been observed and described[4] from the Navajo and other Jurassic sandstones within Utah and adjacent states. [5] Brenda Beitler notes the presence of hollow "subhorizontal planar strata-bound pipes" and "vertical pipes", which have been created by the precipitation of hematite within the Navajo Sandstone. [4] In addition, the bleached sandstone seen in the picture of the cave entrance is typical of sandstones, in which natural pipe-like features have been found [4][5]. The pipe-like features are the result of natural self-organization processes, which occur during the precipitation of iron oxides within sedimentary rocks.

The reported composition of the rusty scraps, 30 percent ferric oxide and large amounts of "silica dioxide" and calcium oxide, is consistent with the hematite masses found in the Navajo and other Jurassic sandstones in Utah and elsewhere in the Southwestern United States. The ferric oxide and large amounts of "silica dioxide" is what a person would expect iron oxide cemented sandstone to consist of. "Calcium oxide" is how a metallurgical analysis would express the calcite found as cement and concretions in sandstone. Calcite and other carbonate cements and concretions are typically associated with the hematite masses in the Navajo and other sandstones and sedimentary rocks. [4]

Source
I'm no geologist, but my brother in law is. A registered professional geologist, in fact, and he tells me the idea that such "pipes" are not natural is simply ludicrous.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
In comparing - for example - the Myths of the God Maui...we can see similarities between them all but also differences. The Maori of New Zealand tell the myth slightly different than the Hawaiians. And the christian missionary who put the myth on paper will add his own bias into the mix.

From those slight differences of the story from tribe to tribe we can conclude that falsehoods and fiction have been added to the original tale.

In Tonga, where the story might still be a bit closer to truth, Maui was a "wise man" who taught people how to make fire. In Tahiti, where the story has become more distorted, Maui is suddenly a God who swallowed the sun and therefore knew the secrets of fire. (This is just an example Im inventing here so that I dont have to go back and look through the books).

Re your posts on this myth, I don't think it's surprising at all that various peoples, all from the Pacific Rim originally, might have similar stories in their mythos.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Now...if I actually put the effort into it (which I wont, since its just an internet board afterall), I could give you - realistically speaking - about 500 different myths from around the world which all essentially tell the same story. That of different beings coming from the sky, landing and sharing knowledge and then going back up to the sky.

The descriptions of this incident greatly vary. Sometimes its an egg coming down. Sometimes a metal dragon. Sometimes a bird. Sometimes someone sitting in a "bird". Sometimes a flying chariot. Sometimes a flying serpent.

I wonder...if I went into the effort of laying out these 500+ stories with their relevant passages, side by side...

...would any of you skeptics say "Wait a minute. There just might be some real and very distantly ancient event behind this. There might be some true core to these legends."

Just maybe.

You would first need to ensure that these tales don't have some one common root. This is because if they were all related, you couldn't say that the fact that they are spread out has any evidentiary value.

It would be very difficult to establish that many different, and unrelated, "sky god" stories you know, since mythologies pre-date the development of writing.

Originally posted by SkyfloatingSaying "maybe" is vastly different than the arrogant Inquisition that ran over south america declaring everything that didnt match their beliefs as "nonsense" or "work of the devil".

Whats more: Why "make up ones mind" about it today? Why is there the need, within the skeptics community, to have "made-up-ones-mind" that extraterrestrials "never" visited the earth.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by SaviorComplex

 

Again, if I were to lay out 500 stories from different parts of the globe all essentially talking of people going up to the sky and coming down from it, wouldnt you find that the least bit odd?
I would not be "choosing" what is and what isnt allegory, because they ALL involve flying around in the sky.
Do you dare say you have reached a final conclusion of ETs never having visited us?

Sky,
First you paint skeptics with the broad brush in the first quote, avering that skeptics have some innate need to deny the very possibility of alien visitation (no true skeptic does this,) and then you basically express wonder that a skeptic might actually exhibit the very behavior you claim?

The way I see it, if there's no real reason to believe it, then why believe it?

That's not the same as saying it couldn't have happened. It's simply a statement that there's no evidence (recognized evidence, anyway,) that it did.

Originally posted by SkyfloatingSo you ask: When does a metal dragon become a spaceship? It becomes one when

1. Compared to other sky-god myths.
2. When it flies up into "the dark sea" (space)
3. When it carries passengers
4. When it spits fire and makes a lot of noise
5. When it is said, for example, "that it reaches a place in 1 hour that others would need 12 weeks for"
6. When it is understood that if you dont have the vocabulary to describe technology you have no choice but to describe it in other words.

1. Did you know that in human mythology, the earliest ideas of "heaven" were mountaintops, and not somewhere in the sky?

You are aware, I'm sure, that many odd things (odd, at least, to prescientific humans) actually come out of the sky. Things like lightning and rain, sleet, snow, and perhaps strangest of all - meteors. Not to mention the unfathomable sparkly things one can see on a clear night when one glances upward.

Oh, and the Sun too, of course.

All of these things were not only unreachable and frightening, they all required some explanation as well. Why not the "gods?"

2. Birds also "fly up" into the sky. What about shooting stars? The idea of flying in the sky is, in itself, no indication of anything that is in the least bit odd, if you stop and think about it.

3. Boats carry passengers. Boats make journeys. A journey "in the sky" would require the concept of a "sky boat," aliens or no aliens.

4. See the previous post about the invention of early forms of gunpowder. Note also that the sky itself "spits fire" with every lightning bolt.
Also, again, meteors. And, what about volcanoes?

5.Humans notice that when speed increases, time taken to arrive decreases. Following this thought to a logical extreme (for the purposes of embellishing a tale) is not surprising either. Nor does it constitute any sort of evidence for anything except ancient imagination. Assuming such a tale is ancient, of course.

6. This statement assumes the presence of technology, therefore it is nothing but circular logic.

Harte

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The "flying up into the dark sea" comes from ancient egypt. But most myths refer to "the heavens" or the actual sky

You are refering to Ra and his Boat of the Millions? You use the "dark sea" as an allegory for space, but the Egyptians were quite literal in it's meaning and were not unclear on where this place was. It was beneath the ground, the place where the Sun went when it appeared to be swallowed by the Earth every night.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Again, if I were to lay out 500 stories from different parts of the globe all essentially talking of people going up to the sky and coming down from it, wouldnt you find that the least bit odd?

Not in the least. There are numerous explanations, none of which need the influence of aliens to explain similiarities in mythologies across the globe.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Do you dare say you have reached a final conclusion of ETs never having visited us?

This question is neither here nor there, having no bearing on our conversation.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by SaviorComplex]

Originally posted by Harte


I'm no geologist, but my brother in law is. A registered professional geologist, in fact, and he tells me the idea that such "pipes" are not natural is simply ludicrous.

Ludicrous? Theyve meanwhile found hundreds of iron pipes which all look quite symmetrical.



If we are to believe chinese scientists, they are not discounting the possibility that they are artificial, much less dismissing the idea as "ludicrous".

reply to post by SaviorComplex


quoting myself from another thread here:

The oldest discs can be dated pre-3000 B.C. and are found on many temples of ancient egypt, often accompanied by the words “hut” or “api” which some egyptologists have translated as “Fly-er” or “Flying Device”. This disc is often associated with Horus.

The flying discs are not only reported to have flown and have people inside them, but also to be used as deadly weapons. Here is a translation that dates back to 1870, done by egyptologist H. Brugsch:

"Hor-Hut flew upwards towards the sun in a big, winged disc. He took with him the north- and south snakes, so that their firey breathe would strike down and burn the enemies""

"He flew with his ship and landed in the city of Hor-Throne. Thoth said: The sender-of-rays, made by Ra, as beaten the enemy"

The translation “sender of rays” (raygun) was later re-interpreted by egyptologists to mean “snake that breathes fire”.

According to egyptologists the winged disc is “nothing but a decorative figure symbolising the sun”.

The winged disc was sometimes also referred to as “the flying eye”, used by the “Gods” to look for and observe things, indicating something that we would nowdays call “spy drone”.

Interestingly, when egyptians referred to flying discs and other flying devices, egyptologists have often translated this is “barque” which is an old word for ship. The reason for this is that the dawn of modern egyptology did not know of “flying ships” yet, had no word for “airplane” yet and had to rely on what they knew.

Apart from flying or being used as weapons there are also reports of sun discs crashing, falling, needing to land to be repaired and so forth. The Greek historian Plutarch reports that one age before his own visit to egypt one of the gold-metal wreckage of one of the last remaining sun discs was found on one of the upper islands of the Nile. According to natives these were the remnants of a sun disc with which Osiris had come from the “Nightsea”

In this context it is not too difficult to make out that “Nightsea” refers to Space. For contemporary archaeology the term is supposed to be “a fanciful description of a mythological place”.

Some Egyptologists try to equate the sun-disc to the sun. This is countered by most of the barques and discs being described not AS the sun, but shining LIKE the sun.

Originally posted by Harte

1. Did you know that in human mythology, the earliest ideas of "heaven" were mountaintops, and not somewhere in the sky?

You are aware, I'm sure, that many odd things (odd, at least, to prescientific humans) actually come out of the sky. Things like lightning and rain, sleet, snow, and perhaps strangest of all - meteors. Not to mention the unfathomable sparkly things one can see on a clear night when one glances upward.

Oh, and the Sun too, of course.

All of these things were not only unreachable and frightening, they all required some explanation as well. Why not the "gods?"

2. Birds also "fly up" into the sky. What about shooting stars? The idea of flying in the sky is, in itself, no indication of anything that is in the least bit odd, if you stop and think about it.

3. Boats carry passengers. Boats make journeys. A journey "in the sky" would require the concept of a "sky boat," aliens or no aliens.

4. See the previous post about the invention of early forms of gunpowder. Note also that the sky itself "spits fire" with every lightning bolt.
Also, again, meteors. And, what about volcanoes?

And did you know that rainfall, normal birds, normal stars, etc. were described in Mythology too?

From these points I must assume you havent read much Mythology. If I remember correctly, you are a math teacher...so that would not be too surprising.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by Skyfloating]

No time to reply to everything, but...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
This disc is often associated with Horus.

Or Horus-as-Ra/Ra-as-Horus...combining the Sun of Ra with the Wings of the Horus falcon.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
According to egyptologists the winged disc is “nothing but a decorative figure symbolising the sun”.

Stupid Egyptologists!

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The winged disc was sometimes also referred to as “the flying eye”, used by the “Gods” to look for and observe things, indicating something that we would nowdays call “spy drone”.

You are again inserting modern bias into ancient myths. The eyes of Horus were the Sun and the Moon. Hawks sailing across the sky also represented him.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The Greek historian Plutarch reports that one age before his own visit to egypt one of the gold-metal wreckage of one of the last remaining sun discs was found on one of the upper islands of the Nile.

So, in other words, this happened long before Plutarch came on the scene, and is not something he witnessed himself...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
In this context it is not too difficult to make out that “Nightsea” refers to Space. For contemporary archaeology the term is supposed to be “a fanciful description of a mythological place”.

Oh, those stupid archeaologists!

Again, you are picking and choosing what is allegory and what isn't, ignoring what the Egyptians themselves believed. Nightsea was not space, it was (to them) a literal place beneath the ground.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

And did you know that rainfall, normal birds, normal stars, etc. were described in Mythology too?

Yes, and often in mythical contexts, such as Zeus and his lightning bolts, Persephone and the changing of seasons, etc.

The Sun is often mentioned in mythology. As a flying chariot, a flat disc being rolled by a dung beetle, a living god, etc. Also, as the Sun.

But these sorts of myths are too recent, aren't they?

I mean, considering your claim of 500 (estimate) different "sky god" myths, and given the undoubted variation of these myths in the timeline of humanity, one would need to go back into the really ancient times - definitely early stone age - to find the single root (if one exists) for these similar (you claim) myths. I mean, to really find the superstitious and frightened originators of some of these ideas.

Of course, one could simply deny that there is one root. But without looking, one wouldn't really be able to say that, see what I mean?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
From these points I must assume you havent read much Mythology. If I remember correctly, you are a math teacher...so that would not be too surprising.

You'd be surprised at how eclectic my actual education is.

Perhaps you can admit that I know a little of ancient history - yet this doesn't exactly jibe with me being a math teacher either, does it?

Did your math teacher ever quote Xanadu to you?

Do you know who the "person from Porlock" is?

However, beyond most of the Greek (from Edith Hamilton, primarily, though I've read two different translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey) and a smattering of Egyptian (mainly looking for any glimpse of something similar to Atlantis - never found it) you'd mostly be correct.

I've also read some of the Native American stuff - the things I could verify were actual stories before contamination from Europeans, which in fact isn't too much.

Harte

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Am I correct in assuming that the elaborations of us Ancient-Astronaut-Theorists doesnt even have you at a "maybe" or "possibly"?

reply to post by Harte


On a scale from 1 to 10, 1 totally impossible, 5 maybe and 10 absolutely, how likely do you think ancient alien visitation is?

After discussing this long enough with you guys, Im curious to know your actual position.

For a math teacher you're certainly versatile.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Am I correct in assuming that the elaborations of us Ancient-Astronaut-Theorists doesnt even have you at a "maybe" or "possibly"?

I don't think that is relevant to the conversation.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
From these points I must assume you havent read much Mythology. If I remember correctly, you are a math teacher...

Out of curiousity, what do you do for a living, Skyfloating?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by Harte

 

On a scale from 1 to 10, 1 totally impossible, 5 maybe and 10 absolutely, how likely do you think ancient alien visitation is?

After discussing this long enough with you guys, Im curious to know your actual position.

For a math teacher you're certainly versatile.

I wouldn't call it impossible at all.

However, the words very extremely and highly unlikely do come to mind.

Of course, these same words come to mind regarding any modern alien visitation as well.

As I see it, the problem is the impossibly large number of star systems.

If you could get to each star system in our galaxy instantly, and spend 3 seconds looking around before you left, it would take you iover 3,000 years just to visit half of them - and remember, that's only allowing for 3 seconds of looking around at each star.

So, even if they're out there (probably they are) and even if they are looking (who knows?) I don't see how they could do what's been claimed - constantly visit and revisit, with several different species of E.T.'s, etc.

Not that it's impossible.

Harte

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Since you are posting in a thread entitled "Ancient Extraterrestrials" your position on the subject is relevant to the conversation.

Im self-employed for a living.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Since you are posting in a thread entitled "Ancient Extraterrestrials" your position on the subject is relevant to the conversation.

I don't think so. My opinion is not relevant and would only serve as a distraction to the conversation.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Im self-employed for a living.

Doing what?

In the interest of full disclosure, I am an editor (though you wouldn't know it from some of the grammar and spelling mistakes I've made here!)

reply to post by SaviorComplex


My profession is quite unrelated to this stuff. I coach people, mainly business people in various matters of communication, goals and also languages.

But you couldnt tell from my frequent misbehavior here

I do remember that you work in the media.

[edit on 18-12-2008 by Skyfloating]