HMS Apocalypse : The British nuclear deterrent

reply to post by Niall197


The Mail strikes again. The conditions for that letter to be opened is that if the submarine can get no way of getting information of any sort from Britain (assuming of course it does pick up some countries info, or its sensors have gone down). What this means is that we have been completely obliterated. That letter could quite easily be 'get the basterds who in your opinion did it or agitated it.' But yes, Brown may have a personal vendetta against Brazil or something, though probably unlikely.

Originally posted by redled
The conditions for that letter to be opened is that if the submarine can get no way of getting information of any sort from Britain.

One of the 'tests' conducted by the captain mentioned in the OP article is to see if BBC R4, that last bastion of Britishness, is still broadcasting 'The Today Programme'

there is a complicated series of checks that the submarine commander must perform to establish the true situation — one of which, curiously, is to determine whether Radio 4 is still broadcasting.

In fact, a fire at the BBC studios some years ago shut R4 off the air during broadcast of 'Today' and put the nuclear fleet on alert...

The Manchester Evening News 28/11/03

THE captains of Britain’s nuclear submarines had a bit of a wake up call today - when the BBC mysteriously went off air for 15 minutes. The Today programme, which is popular with government ministers, went silent just before the 8 o’clock news because of a fire alarm at BBC HQ.

Culture Minister Tessa Jowell was speaking when the programme was cut off and the main news was replaced by classical music. The unusual event was a crucial test for Britain’s four Trident nuclear submarines, patrolling in secret locations around the world and cut off from base.

The submarine captains will have been alerted when the Today programme mysteriously went off air, even for just 15 minutes.

I like 'one of the 'tests' is Radio 4, mate they will scan the country for any sign of life, so yes, the BBC World Service will be on one of their checks. Come on.

What I find interesting here, and I was going to post a thread on it but didnt want the attention if true lol,

Well I know for a fact that R4 and more importantly too the World service is used by Embassies around the world to get coded messages etc...

The day the real depression we see now started, as history will judge, on the 17th I think of September when things really start to unwind...

Well for the first time ever the Pips on the BBC Radio Network at 8 am time marker had one more pip than usual, and was six seconds late too!

It has never happened before and no one at the computer part of BBC could explain it, they are synchronised exactly, GMT the time marker linked to the atomic clock in the basement of the BBC, the last Pip being the actual exact Hours i.e 8am, but on that day it was 1 pip more....

There are six pips (short beeps) in total, which occur on the 5 seconds leading up to the hour and on the hour itself. Each pip is a 1 kHz tone which, for the five leading pips, lasts a tenth of a second, while the final pip lasts half a second. The actual moment when the hour changes – i.e., the "on-time marker" – is at the very beginning of the last 'long' pip.

And

The pips have been broadcast daily since 5 February 1924, and were the idea of the Astronomer Royal, Sir Frank Watson Dyson, and the head of the BBC, John Reith.

Greenwich Time Signal

I thought at the time it meant something in code to many people around the world...

Hear the Presenters Freak out here lol


Well well something was in this and I was concerned all day....

A coded message IMHO though to mean what only time will tell, but the timing and world events recently leads me to believe it was not just a "Glitch", never had such an event since 1924 when measured of two pendulam clocks....

Kind regards,

Elf.

[edit on 30-11-2008 by MischeviousElf]

reply to post by NeoSocialist


I have read the article and have to say that I laughed out loud at one point.

Here is old Denis sitting in his comfy chair 'overlooking the downs' lamenting on old times, now telling us that if the decision had fallen to him should the PM have been killed he would have said "theres no reason for doing something like that"

I'm baffled by Denis' nievity and others who actually think that would be allowed. The only reason Denis would be in the bunker at High Wycombe is that the Soviet Union had made a 'First Strike' against NATO. If Denis had dithered (he would not have been allowed to)..it would not have made a jot of differenece. The United States Military bases in the UK and Europe would also have been targeted by the Soviets thus meaning a 'Full Scale retaliation by the US.

A thermonuclear weapon has never been used in anger in history. You cannot use evidence of the destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki as a guide these were different. The devestation caused by the Soviets on us would be incomprehendable. There would be no-more normality...ever.

Denis like all his pals in the Labour party were under suspicion at the time as having a little too much left wing empathy with our Soviet friends(As it happens Charles Clarke, John Reid and David Milliband are still being monitored)

If anyone, Denis included thinks that for one moment his refusal to retaliate would be 'end of story' you are sadly wrong. Denis would have been arrested or worse. I can guarantee that there would have been a British retaliation to a 'First Strike' by the Soviet Union.

Does he think that for one moment the Officers beside him would not have been a little aggreived that their families had been vapourised(presuming they were living on RAF Bases) by the Soviet attack?

The irony of all ironies...the people reading these pages, using the Internet and for that matter using 'SATNAV' to get to their demos who are staunch Anti-Nuclear Weapons...now that does make me chuckle.

[edit on 1/1208/08 by neformore]

reply to post by Anonymous ATS



Nah, I have to disagree Anonymous. Denis was well known for being quite a hawk when it came to defending the UK.

I think it likely that this is more a case of Denis Healey's rather selective memory striking again.

A previous example occurred when it became clear that Denis Healey's newly formed MOD permitted Porton Down scientists to repeatedly spray many counties in Southern England with Biological Warfare simulants. When the knowledge of this entered the public domain, Denis Healey had a sudden bout of memory failure and said he couldn't remember giving permission. Yet declassified Government docs reveal that these BW field trials were known to senior Government Ministers.

-----

Those who have read Prof Hennessy’s book - The Secret State, will be familiar with the concept of the Prime Minister’s nuclear Deputy.

This Deputy (not to be confused with the Deputy Prime Minister), is responsible for ordering a nuclear retaliation strike, should the Prime Minister be, for whatever reason, incapacitated. The origins of this role was to try to forestall a decapitation, or ‘bolt from the blue’ nuclear strike on the UK.

Recently declassified Cabinet Office documents reveal that, during the early 1960s, the UK had two Prime Minister’s Deputies; each capable of ordering nuclear retaliation, should it be deemed necessary.















"On enactment of the Precautionary Stage (codeword - SHADWELL), the first Prime Minister’s Deputy must “be at all times, unless on occasion exempted by special arrangement with the Prime Minister,

(a) able to reach either No 10 Downing Street/Admiralty House or the Prime Minister’s Office at the House of Commons within thirty minutes; or such lesser period as may be advised from time to time; and

(b) in immediate telephone communication with both of the above places.

2. When for any reason the Prime Minister will, for however short a period, be neither at No 10 Downing Street/Admiralty House, nor his office at the House of Commons his Private Secretary will warn the First Deputy who will go immediately to No 10 Downing Street/Admiralty House or to the Prime Minister’s office at the House of Commons (as notified at the time) and, on arrival, will confirm that he is ready to take over.

3. The Prime Minister will await this conformation before leaving and , on receiving it, will formally hand over responsibility to the First Deputy.

4. The First Deputy will remain at his post until, on his return to No 10 Downing Street/Admiralty House or to his office at the House of Commons, the Prime Minister informs him that he has resumed responsibility.”

The Second Prime Minister’s Deputy would, on receipt of the codeword - SHADWELL, be transported immediately to BURLINGTON.

“The Second Deputy will be housed at the alternative headquarters of the central Government, and will have no Parliamentary or other duties which will require him to move away from his communications there. He will be in continuous touch with developments in London and will know immediately if contact is broken that he has necessarily assumed responsibility.”

This latter statement paints a tense picture; of the Prime Minister's Second Deputy tucked away in BURLINGTON, listening with dread to an open line to Whitehall - hoping against hope that the line never fails.

Those who have seen the original 1963 version of the film Failsafe, will have seen a similar procedure adopted; the monitoring of open telephone lines, in order to confirm nuclear strikes on Moscow and New York. A real example of life imitating art. 8)

If either Deputy had assumed responsibility, and had decided that the ordering of nuclear retaliation was necessary, they would have carried out the following instructions, which give an insight on nuclear release procedures during the early 1960s.

Obviously, they do not include the verification and authentification procedures, but they do include the topics of conversation to be adopted while communicating with: (A) the US president and; (B) SACEUR (Supreme Allied Commander Europe ).



"A. Conversation with the President

1. A general decision whether to launch strategic nuclear forces, British and American (Macmillan-Kennedy general understanding).

2. Operational use by United States forces of bases in the United Kingdom:

(a) SAC air bases (Atlee-Truman agreement for “joint
decision”).

(b) Polaris submarine bases (Holy Loch)
(Holy Loch agreement, 1960, for “joint consultation”).

3. Use of Bomber Command Thors. (1958 agreement -
Command 366)

4. Clearance for launching of:-

(a) United States tactical nuclear aircraft in United Kingdom
assigned to SACEUR: (Murphy-Dean agreement).

(b) United Kingdom tactical nuclear aircraft in United
Kingdom assigned to SACEUR and carrying United
States nuclear warheads. (Murphy-Dean agreement).

5. Clearance for SACLANT to launch British nuclear striking forces in his command (arrangements not yet complete).

6. Declaration of R-hour by SACEUR and SACLANT. May they declare it at discretion? If not, when?

B. Conversation with SACEUR

1. Declaration of R-hour (see A.6 above).

2. Launching of his tactical nuclear aircraft based in United Kingdom (see A.4 above).







Its interesting to note that, when advised that he must nominate two Prime Minister’s Deputies, the Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan, referred to them, in a handwritten note as, “First Gravedigger“, and “Second Gravedigger“. (see above)

This is yet another Shakespearian reference introduced into Home Defence planning! In the early stages of an international crisis, the codewords - MACMORRIS and FLUELLEN are used on Whitehall planning. They are both characters who appear in Henry V.

Finally, if (and its a very big if) it fell to the Secretary of State for Defence to authorise the release of the UK nuclear retaliatory force, it would have been issued from the nuclear release room at No 10 Downing Street. This was relocated in the very early 1970's to Cabinet Office Briefing Room C (COBR(C)) - next door to the now famous COBR(A).

If there had been no 'bolt from the blue' then normal Precautionary Stage procedures would have been carried out. The Prime Minister's Helicopter Party (which included the Ministry of Defence) would have left London at the very last minute (Operation VISITATION); the departure point would have been from Horseguards Parade; the destination - the underground Central Government Wartime HQ at Corsham, North Wiltshire (codename -BURLINGTON, later renamed TURNSTILE).


zero lift

[edit on 2/12/08 by zero lift]

Originally posted by neformore

Scary isn't it?

As a parent, the thought of nukes terrifies me. It never used to when I was younger and single with no real commitments.

Having said that, part of me is kinda reassured that these guys are out there, doing what they do. Their control system is kind of unique, and I like that.


reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

I remember that. I'm not sure Buenos Aires was the target though, I think she referred to the air base that the Excoet carrying Mirages were being launched from. The general gist was that the RAF couldn't guarantee a strike on the Argentine mainland with conventional weapons, because the Vulcans were too unreliable, so the last option was to take out the base with a small yield sub-launched nuke - had we lost a carrier then she might have gone for it.

Mitterand gave her the exocet info, so I imagine there was some basis to his claims.

Yep very scary neformore,

Always has seemed like normalised insanity to me...

Thanks for the extra info, I thought she said the Capital, but you jogged my memory and I remember now that was it not after the failed SAS mission to get to the same base first?

And yep they did the French provide some of the codes, and info for the Exocet's

Zerolift good post S from me.

Kind Regards,

Elf.

The SAS mission would have used a C-130 to hit the base ; but it would have been a 1 way ticket as the C-130 wouldn`t have made it back , so the plan was to crash it on or near the runway and then take as much `out` before the team were killed or captured the last possibility was an overland extraction but was deemed too difficult.

Originally posted by neformore

I jogged your memory and you jogged mine right back.

Yes, they considered an SAS/SBS raid on the base, but it would have proven nearly impossible to insert and extract them, which is why the nuke option was considered. These days the base would have been targetted with sub-launched conventional Tomahawks, but they weren't in the inventory back then.

Maybe jog your memory again!

The mission was never officially recognised, however one did seem to take place and the helicopter crashed the SAS troops in Chile, the Special Force guys apparently went through the jungle out of Chile.

As they all train Jungle warfare as part of their training in South America, no problems for them there!

The Helicopter Crew claimed they were Medics (same as Mcnabs team story when captured!) If I remember rightly.

Chile To Return Three Downed British Airmen
The Chilean government is preparing to turn over three British helicopter crewmen who landed in southern Chile and hid for a week, thinking they were in Argentina.

"The Crew (Members) are in now in the hands of the Chilean authorities. We hope to have access to them shortly," Said British Embassy spokesman Robert Gordon.

Foreign Minister Rene Rojas said Lt Alan Reginald Bennett, Lt. Richard Outchings and Sgt Peter Blain Imrie were found Tuesday in good condition, a week after the Sea King helicopter made a forced landing 11 miles south of Punta Arenas in the strait of Magellan,
"Only today did the men realize they were in Chile and not Argentina," Rojas said Tuesday in a prepared statement.

The discovery of the burnt out remains of the helicopter was announced on Thursday, along with a note protesting the incursion that was handed to the British Ambassador John Moore Heath.

The British Government said the chopper was scouting for British task force trying to retake the Falklands Islands and ran into bad weather.

The Chileans accepted the explanation

Google Archives The Evening Independant May 26th 1982 (P3 Right column)

Now it was as said never officially confirmed, but it would not be, got pushed to chile in bad weather lol.... and why 3 crew members left?

Pilot, Co-pilot/Navigator, Loader Gunner, the special force team scooted as per operating procedures and burnt out the copter first.

As if a Pilot, Co Pilot, and other Raf crew man with full kit, compasses etc ability to read stars etc would think they were in Chile With Maps too... soo funny, I have not done it for years, real proper orienteering/camping, but drop me anywhere with a compass, good maps, two Trig Points or identifiable Mountain tops, or such like and I would know where I was. These Pilots didnt?

They were waiting for the Special Force lads to put some distance between them and the crash site.

Not much left on it these days but I remember vividly reading about it then and the claims that it was such a mission to take out that Airbase you mention.

Kind Regards,

Elf.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Now_Then

 

Hehe, I probably know alot I "should" (read: that ATS guys would love) share with you guys, but I value my job and freedom

..

I was just stating the obvious though. Without the threat of nuclear annihalation, Stalin and chums would have been much keener on rolling across Europe with their Armoured Divisions. For the most part of the Cold War, the West had the advantage in technology, nuclear power and intelligence. Without the nukes, the Soviet conventional numerical superiority would have been too much to handle.

No only up until the around 77 did the west have the advantage in numbers and tech, after words till this day (2008) Russia has that.

BBC Radio 4 broadcast a programme by Prof. Hennessy tonight about the British nuclear deterrent. Listening to it just now on BBC iPlayer, it should be available to ATS member in the UK, those overseas I'm unsure how you can access it, perhaps proxy in with a UK IP address or something.

BBC Radio - The Human Button

Historian Prof Peter Hennessy speaks to the people who have operated Britain's nuclear deterrent over the years and today, including military commanders, politicians and former Vulcan bomber crew members. He visits Northwood, the headquarters from which the order to fire would come today, and Corsham, the secret nuclear bunker which, in the 1960s, would have been the location for an alternative government in the event of all-out war.

Regarding comment by "Elf": With out being to harsh, I don't think I have ever heard such simple non-sense as "weapons are the cause of war". Then it must of course follow fires are the result of having fire departments. Having degrees in science and history, and knowing how they are joined at the hip, you have to look at this issue from two major points of view. First the evidence that nations that want something that someone else has, and a perception that "prize" can be taken without much risk to an aggressor, invites war. WW-2 is a lovely example of this; much uf Europe and others such as the US hoped the Nazis would just go away if no one threatened them. Peace in our time, Ok... In truth prior to the invasion of Poland (which by the way was co-ordinated from west AND east, the Russians grabing what they could, the result of the then secret Hitler/Stalin pact to carve up a state considerably weaker in military terms then Germany or Russia alone). The Poles as we know payed most dearly.

But the second important part of this equation is the security of major weapons, and the need to make it very clear for all sides if you cross this line, we will call "X", bad things will happen. Period. To explain this further during the good old cold war the two major players; US/USSR, and minor players had SECURE nuclear forces with multiple command-and-control, ALWAYS based on both several technological, political, and "other" componants. As I saw it in effect happen, our nations would engage in this utterly bizzare "Kaboki Dance" with the simple objective of saying; "your making me/us nervous. This required postering, which is very hard to get past the other guys "giggle factor" with an MX missle version of a blow-up sex toy.

Last, while I'm on the subject of why it's important for any nation to have a "true" hardware and policy based deterent, I would like to offer my view I think is the main reason, why after so many times, we all came SO CLOSE to nuclear war several times since 1949. Consider this: When you hear the words "nuclear" or more visceral words "atomic weapons", tell me what image you see in your mind. I don't see the fist test at Alamagordo NM, or the vast facility at Hanford WA, or a B-29. I see the horror of the physical images of the victums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think when ever the idea of letting the nukes fly crosses the mind of someone who could make it happen, it has to give them pause. In a dreadfull and very terrible way, the agony of the peole of Nagasaki and Hiroshima may have given us from that time, a future.

Now that reflexive equation no longer applies. I guess terrorists, the Iranians, North Koreans, etc, just don't know or care how to dance...



an agressive action just one to be able to protect itself from another. means the ability to protect one nation from another.

Now available on BBC Radio 4 until Tues 9th Dec

The Human Button

Historian Prof Peter Hennessy speaks to the people who have operated Britain's nuclear deterrent over the years and today, including military commanders, politicians and former Vulcan bomber crew members. He visits Northwood, the headquarters from which the order to fire would come today, and Corsham, the secret nuclear bunker which, in the 1960s, would have been the location for an alternative government in the event of all-out war.

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reply to post by Niall197


Oops, I just practically duplicated your post


[edit on 3-12-2008 by citizen smith]

reply to post by citizen smith


No worries matey, it's a very interesting programme to listen to.

I was surprised to hear the weapons drill on board HMS Vanguard, "Set Condition 1SQ" (for missile launch). I saw an American movie years ago, can't remember the name, starred Gene Hackman & Denzel Washington, anyways in that movie an identical term was used. Just thought it unusual the RN & USN use the same terminology when it comes to releasing nuclear weapons, any particular reason for that do you think ?

Originally posted by arbiture
Regarding comment by "Elf": With out being to harsh, I don't think I have ever heard such simple non-sense as "weapons are the cause of war".

Arbiture I did not quote that I said:

The Preparation of War is the Cause of War

A very different kettle of fish. And I did mean it in regards to this thread subject, being Nuclear War or abilities.

I Should of probably clarified it's relation more.

Good post though, but on this topic, If we did not have as I postulated such huge numbers of these as you too describe them also generally as, terrible weapon's there would not be the possibility of such a Insane action ever taking place.

So I think in this sense that statement is true.

Without the preparation of Nuclear War, or exchange and use of such things it would be impossible to have a Nuclear war, if the weapons never existed in the first place.

As you rightly say we have come close on several occasions, once as well Yeltsin I believe due to a breakdown in communications, where a Normal Scientific commercial rocket was fired from the Swedish I think, or those countries near by, had 7 minutes to Make the decision whether to press the button.
The Information passed on from the country that it was firing a Rocket Missile, which showed a trajectory, that if it was Ballistic would have gone to Moscow, got lost in the Soviet command somewhere, and he was awoken with the "trigger" as such in the early hours.

It very nearly resulted in the Soviets/Russia launching an Nuclear retaliation by mistake and only human judgement, he waiting until the very last minute when it was realised it would re-enter etc that saved the world or at least a large part of Europe from aniliation.

Humans cant be trusted with such decisions to never make a mistake, and the stakes are too large IMHO for such preparation.

Also the Neo-Cons and pentagon seem to have really really upped the stakes and want to, and seem to believe that a Limited exchange is possible and feaseable on the battlefield or justified in bunker Busting type actions.

As to Nagasaki well, I wont even go there that was the sickest science experiment of all time, and is no different if not worse than what the Nazi's did in experiments on humans in the camps, my opinion only but I stand by it.

Hiroshima could have happened 10 miles of the coast with forewarning to the Japanese, and contrary to popular belief I think upon "seeing" it and its power, and some spin that they had 50 or so ready to drop within say 36 hours all over Japan, they would have surrendered.

Proliferation is a real issue, just looking at issues now in India and Pakistan which is probably the most likely arena for any exchange show this, How many and who will have them in 10 and 20 yrs time. I am very worried we have as a race started down this path and it seems inevitable that one day soon a Nuclear event will happen. Once it does again it could quickly become normalised as such in a limited way which too easily could lead to all out use.

Madmen and Insanity often rules nation states as in your wisdom of the subject History has shown time and time again. I feel we should as a people, Humans world wide not trust the entire worlds survival to such people with such power to wipe us all out soo quickly and horrendously.

Lets be fair the US seems to have "lost" some recently with some of the best security procedures in the world, what if a real Pakistan coup happened?

The thought is soo dangerous we should realise that just because most of us have grown up with them being there since our births, it is not normal or acceptable in any way, either the dangers, costs or environmentally.

Originally posted by Niall197
I was surprised to hear the weapons drill on board HMS Vanguard, "Set Condition 1SQ" (for missile launch).

It was Crimson Tide Nial, and showed in graphic detail what I mention above about the Communication issue, and the dangers of Madmen or very "sure" but misguided people with their fingers on the trigger.

Brilliant film.

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 3-12-2008 by MischeviousElf]

reply to post by Niall197


Your thinking of the film Crimson Tide...interesting that the wiki article mentions this little bit of info on the launch protocols

...The film is based on the premise that, at the time, U.S. submarine commanders were authorized to launch missiles on their own initiative if they could not communicate with the President of the United States after the order to arm the missiles was received. At about this time, the procedure was changed so that missiles could only be launched if a direct order from the Commander-in-Chief was received, even if communications had been broken off in the meantime, via the use of permissive action links. This matched Russian policy on submarine-based missile launches, which had always required direct orders to launch. Today only on British nuclear submarines does the commander have the ability and authority to launch upon his own initiative.

Perhaps the similarity in commands issued that you mention originate from the RN adopting the USN system of chain-of-proceedure when nuclear-armed subs first entered RN service, as Prof Hennessy also mentions in the programme that the 'button' that launches the missile is based on the handle/trigger of a Colt .45

reply to post by Niall197


Up until a few years ago when I was on them, the pipe used to be 'Set Condition 1SQ for WSRT' (Weapons Systems Readiness Test). The Strategic Launch part I never heard because we never actually launched. It would be totally against all human ethics to fool the crew into thinking they were actually conducting a live ICBM firing and not otherwise engaging in an often practiced exercise. They may have moved the goalposts now though but seems unlikely.