Calling all socialists.

Originally posted by whoswatchinwho
Socialism

"An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists."

dictionary.reference.com...

Exactly what is happening just now, the banks are being nationalised, companies are being bailed out by the government, effectively being owned by us, the populace. Socialism at work.

Yeah yeah, try other dictionaries. It is too politically charged a word.

reply to post by Solomons


Try writing on forms that will earn you cash. You can write.

reply to post by -zeropoint-


If you want to speak about not being an idiot, why don't you look at history.....

Is socialism now a dirty word?
Has the hyperbole and bile from the American election not settled yet?

Aneurin Bevan the architect of the National Health Service was a socialist
so if your living in the UK and in need of medical care be glad your living there and not worring about bills or insurance cover.

reply to post by dalek


I do (live in the UK) and I am (glad), always have been a socialist, and always will be.

as for it being a politically charged word, well of course it is it's a political ideal. I don't see what's so scary about it, it's inevitable. capitalism will collapse and the only way forward is through a socialist system.

Originally posted by mystiq
The best way to take away the stigma of "handouts" And no one could look at another with prejudice.

[edit on 27-11-2008 by mystiq]

Wrong.
My opinion is quite different from yours and I'll tell you why. I travel 300 days out of 360 and do a highly skilled job that is dangerous to boot. I don't care what you think is fair but try to take away what I work my butt off for to give to somebody else who won't work and call it 'fair'? I look at you with prejudice for even spouting that babble.

By the way, the STIGMA is for a reason. You want somebody taking what you earn from you just because they can? People shouldn't be proud of it. Some need the help and that's life. I don't begrudge the ones who need help, but most use it because they are LAZY. People like you want to support them? Go down to the pub and hand it over to the bartender you'll save a lot of paperwork and get more of your paycheck to the masses.

There is no such thing as fair. It is a legislated lie used to buy votes and support the bs idea that the politicians can run our lives for us. They can't. They're mostly rich and can't run their own lives but you want to hand everybodys paychecks to them?

Wake up.

Dalek asked if socialism is a dirty word.
Oh yes.
It is for me because I have spent all of my adult life working for what I have. I don't have a lot but what I do have is paid for. Now people tell me I could have the same thing for free if I just turned it all over to the politicians. Do you think a politician is going to see it that way?
Oh goodness no.
First, we've got to take care of the rich and influential. Like it or not they are above your socialist fairness doctrines. Then the politicians get a big piece of what they have so 'fairly' appropriated - "by his needs and for his needs you know". Then the 'special' interest gets an extra large cut. Must be unfair in somebodys favor to be fair. Then the average retired/ disabled/ circumstances warrant crowd gets a nice helping of fairness.
After all of that, the no good, job holding greedy selfish capitalist taxpayers get to fork over a paycheck and get a middle finger for their efforts. Plus they get the benefit of being laughed at for doing the work in the first place when they could sit on their bottoms and drink a few pints while watching the game. Never mind the fact that this kind of math won't add up in the end. The fact is that it is incredibly unfair for those who do get up every morning and go out there to do a job.
Oh god please, let there be a stigma.

[edit on 28-11-2008 by badgerprints]

Originally posted by governmentsecrets
i think the point of socialism is for everyone to contribute. you don't get something for nothing. do something for me and i'll give you cash.

Welcome to capitalism!

line number two...




[edit on 28-11-2008 by LiquidMirage]

Originally posted by Mahatma87
I need some money. Please help.

PM for my bank details so you can deposit.

Thanks.

ps, I also need somewhere to live. If you're in England, give me a room.

Here's some free advice:


GET A JOB!
If you really need a place to stay then a homeless mission will put you up at no charge. They'll even feed you.

What a slightly funny, yet idiotic post.

I could reply with "I'm a Capitalist and no. you can starve on the streets for all i care, Compassion doesn't earn me the green stuff."

Socialism is a far more logical, responsible and evolutionary ideology than capitalism. Capitalism has only been around for a few hundred years whilst the concept of Socialism have been around a hell of a lot longer.

I'd rather live in a Socialist society where if some Capitalist wa*ker screws me out of my possesions then i have a group of people who will help me to get back on to my feet rather than leave me to starve in a gutter.

Here in the UK we have a shining example of Socialism: The NHS. Anyone who needs medical help is entitled to it. For Free. Regardless.

The Conservative party over here have flirted with abolishing it (they starved it of money during the 1980's) but the idea of geting stabbed, calling an ambulance but them first asking "DO you have insurance" rather then "are you bleeding" doesn't sit well.

Flame me but the extreme of socialism is communism and the extreme of conservatism is Fascism. i know which i'd rather live under, and it's not the one with Concentration camps.

Originally posted by Europe
im in ireland but i can put ya up for a while, sign on the dole if your british and give me half!

Hey, uh .. if I come to Èire could I stay with you? And borrow your car? And feed me, and give me some spending money? .. I will do the dishes! (my contribution!)

I expect clean sheets, and a full Irish breakfast in the morning (I don't like my bacon crispy, just so you know).

reply to post by died4government


I love the general idea of Socialism, but not in a place like America.. 50 countries would pull all their resources and the consequence is many states would be left with far less then others. The states with the massive cities and higher poverty rates would suck the life out of the more rural and smaller states. Ironically, the founding fathers knew this .. if you recall the debates between small states and large states (giving birth to our Senate).

Large states wield to much power, consume to much, and drain the life out of smaller states unless kept in place.. sadly, this sort of prohibits a lot of Country wide programs like National Health Care. Now, if a portion of our National Income tax could be refunded (% per person.. like 20% of our gross National Income Tax per person is returned to the states) we could provide a socialist style government defined by each individual state.

Unfortunately as well, any increase in the tax burden will destroy our consumer driven economy.. we would need a complete overhaul.

But Socialism seems to work in smaller countries, like Britain (it has it's flaws no doubt).. but many small countries also have the population of single States in America... And just like the British don't want to pay to feed France's poor, I don't want to pay for South Carolina's, Florida's, Alabama's, New York's, California's etc etc etc poor...

But I sure wouldn't mind paying into my own states.

OP I think that you are resilient and you can land on your feet and pull yourself up by your bootstraps
after all this is America and everyone can participate in the American Dream

as long as they don't get get cancer

or suffer a major injury which prevents them from earning a living
or has to care for an elderly ailing relative
or has their home and livelihood destroyed by a natural disaster
or doesn't loose everything they have saved in n unregulated investment fraud
or doesn't get attacked or car jacked by a criminal and suffer crippling injury
or hasn't been poisoned,by industrial pollutants in their communities ground water

how come you need money ? have you made bad financial decisions ?
because there's no excuse for that you know

Originally posted by whoswatchinwho
Socialism

"An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity. There are many varieties of socialism. Some socialists tolerate capitalism, as long as the government maintains the dominant influence over the economy; others insist on an abolition of private enterprise. All communists are socialists, but not all socialists are communists."

dictionary.reference.com...

Exactly what is happening just now, the banks are being nationalised, companies are being bailed out by the government, effectively being owned by us, the populace. Socialism at work.

Nationalism is NOT socialism. Whoever wrote that needs to go back to school

Socialism is the workers ownership/control of the means of production.

Nationalism is the government ownership of...

Capitalism is the private ownership of...

Socialists support social programs, under capitalism, because we KNOW that under capitalism there is ALWAYS going to be a poverty class.
Capitalism requires a poverty class, but they don't teach you that do they? You can only financialy exploit someone worse off than yourself, if we were all equally wealthy capitalism would fail. Real capitalists know this and exploit this fact.

So it's NOT socialism that creates the need for social programs, it's capitalism. So if you don't like social programs blame capitalists not socialists.

In a true socialist system, where everyone can be employed and directly benefit from their own labour, there would be NO need for socials programs, other than for the obvious people who can't work. At least until money is made completely irrelevant in a more community autonomous based system.

Nothing is free under socialism, you work your share, or you don't share in what is produced, simple. Capitalism allows people to make huge amounts of wealth off of other people without hardly lifting a finger. They just take advantage of a system designed to be taken advantage of by those with the wealth to do so. The system exploits the fact that workers have no choice but to work for someone, instead of being a part owner in their place of employment and directly benefiting from their own labour. They work hard they get more, they get lazy then they suffer.

In capitalism the hourly wage worker has no incentive to work any harder than required to not get fired. Workers who benefit directly from their labour have incentive to work harder. Simple. Except it makes no one person rich, it makes everyone fat and happy. You've been conditioned to chase carrots in the hope that one day you'll be rich, instead of creating a society where the idea of wealth is irrelevant.

[edit on 2/7/2009 by ANOK]

Almost all Republicans and Democrats are socialist in one form or another.

Very few politicians comply to what the Constitution really stood for.

Socialists support social programs, under capitalism, because we KNOW that under capitalism there is ALWAYS going to be a poverty class.
Capitalism requires a poverty class, but they don't teach you that do they? You can only financially exploit someone worse off than yourself, if we were all equally wealthy capitalism would fail. Real capitalists know this and exploit this fact.

That Anok, is an often missed point that pseudo economist love to ignore.


I think that what we overlook in Capitalism is the fact that private ownership is government enforced. In America we love to talk about pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and doing it ourselves but we seem to forget that our property is entirely reliant upon government. Property grants the ability of the individual to restrict the freedoms of others for their own benefit, this can be good or bad depending upon how it is used. If you want this type of power you need to go and buy property...with government issued money, that enters the system through a process of cronyism and plutocracy. We often forget how arbitrary property and our system of wealth is, we have had the "idea" of property beaten into our heads from such a young age we forget that property does not exist in places where children are not raised to believe in it...one thing I can say for certain is our current system of wealth will not last indefinitely, change will be coming. The system is slanted towards those who already own, not those who are most skilled, this is where we fall short, as George Soros once expressed, our current system is the equivalant of selecting an olympic team based on whose great grandfather won a medal 60 years ago.

I'm developing my own economic theory right now to explain the next economic steps the country will be taking as well as a new form of socialism(a separate theory)...of course my theory is probably completely wrong and I am playing with a lot of new ideas, we will see.

ANOK SAID

So it's NOT socialism that creates the need for social programs, it's capitalism. So if you don't like social programs blame capitalists not socialists.

truth good one ANOK

knowing what capitalism and socialism and communism are before you start arguing about them would be a good first step Y'all

Originally posted by mystiq
Socialism is about equalizing incomes through taxes and responsible policies.

Most socialists mean well but a socialist system ends up being most unequal to those who work and achieve. Socialism in smaller countries works pretty well because of closer oversight on the establishment by the people, but it's really not fair.

This is because it caters to those who don't want to provide their own food, clothing, housing, or pay for their doctor bills.

In large countries with big goverment it is very hard on the people that actually achieve and not so great for anybody but the politicians.

It's a lie.
Nothing is, or ever will be, equal.

Having said that, capitalism is screwing the US and other places quite nicely.

I think we need a new plan.

Capitalism, Socialism ...........Fairy Tales.

You can't spell fairy tale without the word fair.

How about get-off-your-ass-and-take-care-of-yourself-ism ?

I'd go for that.

I think we need a new plan.

Capitalism, Socialism ...........Fairy Tales.

You can't spell fairy tale without the word fair.

How about get-off-your-ass-and-take-care-of-yourself-ism ?

I'd go for that.

me too but what about hose who can't help themselves ,maybe they're crazy maybe they're old maybe they're orphans maybe they had a horrible disease maybe serial killer broke into their house and shot them in the head but they didn't die what then? born crippled ? retarded? what then ?

Originally posted by badgerprints
This is because it caters to those who don't want to provide their own food, clothing, housing, or pay for their doctor bills.

This is simply not true. In a socialist system you the worker would own the means of production, an equal share in the company you work for. There would be no private ownership, and what is produced is equally shared between those who produce it. It's about taking the profit out of private hands, and putting in the hands of those who actually create that profit through their labour.

Under socialism you would be required to be responsible for your community, not just be a leach upon it like the capitalists.

It has nothing to do with free hand outs. As I explained in my last post, socialists support social programs, only under capitalism because it's a necessity. Capitalism creates a poverty class, and a pool of unemployed labour. Your capitalism requires this, and if people take advantage of it, how is that any worse than capitalists taking advantage of the poverty they create? Some of us are just trying to get by, some want everything you've got and more...Those with the power to do so will convince you to give what you've earned, from your labour, to them for something you really don't need. They don't care a crap about you, they just want your money, you're a cash machine. And for what?

A good example, an employee is employed to make bread. The private owner provides the supplies, the worker supplies the labour for a wage. Then the employee gives the employer back his wage to buy that loaf of bread, at a profit. Wouldn't it be more efficient if the worker just kept the loaf he made?

In large countries with big goverment it is very hard on the people that actually achieve and not so great for anybody but the politicians.

Socialism is NOT big government, that is the lie. Socialists are traditionally anti-government, and anti-state. It was Marx and Lenin etc. that tried to con people into excepting a perverted form of socialism, that was really nothing but another system allowing an elite to control everything.
No different than those that con you with capitalism. Just another set of bigots with their rifle sights on you.

Capitalism, Socialism ...........Fairy Tales.

Socialism has always been the workers opposition to capitalism. It simply puts the power in the hands of you and me, and takes it away from private individuals who use it to their own advantage, and the detriment of the majority.

You shouldn't fear socialism, but you should fear ANY government who CLAIMS to be socialist. Socialism is only what WE make it, not what someone else tries to dictate to you. Socialism is traditionally anti-authoritarian, anti-state, so a socialist government is an oxymoron.

Socialists are traditionally anti-government and anti-state. Socialism is control by the people, capitalism is control by money. So ANY system where the people have control, as apposed to government or private individuals, is basically socialism. So if you support the idea of true liberty, then you should be a socialist by default.

If you want a true non-government/authoritarian system then look into Libertarian Socialism.