Manufacturing Industry - The REAL Chem Trail

What's funny, is that I had to make a trip into the mountains and back the other day. It's a long drive there and back, so even leaving at 3 p.m., I got back to the city around 4 p.m. And when I came down the last mountain so you get a view of the entire city of Denver, I had to laugh. All this talk about mysterious chemtrails, which have no proof.. but as I look, there is a massive layer of brown over the entire city. Just ugly and thick and oh-so-noticable. That's much more effective than any chemicals that could be dropped. There is a reality of pollution, but we'd rather focus on the unproven. How ironic.

Originally posted by fleabit
What's funny, is that I had to make a trip into the mountains and back the other day. It's a long drive there and back, so even leaving at 3 p.m., I got back to the city around 4 p.m. And when I came down the last mountain so you get a view of the entire city of Denver, I had to laugh. All this talk about mysterious chemtrails, which have no proof.. but as I look, there is a massive layer of brown over the entire city. Just ugly and thick and oh-so-noticable. That's much more effective than any chemicals that could be dropped. There is a reality of pollution, but we'd rather focus on the unproven. How ironic.

Exactly my point, I haven't even touched on the whole subject, I've merely scratched the surface and even then it seems so blatantly obvious.

Of the six thousand aircraft in the USAF, including two and a half thousand fighter aircraft, less than one hundred and fifty aircraft are stealth. It would make zero sense to spray Barium into the atmosphere to enhance the effects of a few stealth aircraft, as it would degrade the radar performance of all the aircraft, including the non-stealth ones, making it harder to detect the actual enemies.

Zepherian, 'chemtrail debunkers' believe that it is normal for 'contrails', to persist. Don't delude yourself into thinking Chemtrail debunkers are incapable of looking up into the sky and "experiencing" "Chemtrails". Let me make this very simple, you look up into the sky, you 'experience' an unusual, very long, persistant, cloud like trail coming out the end of a white aircraft. What is it? Chemtrailers believe they are unnatural chemicals. Contrailers believe they are persistant contrails. To properly 'experience' one way or the other, one has to of actually been inside the trail and collecting hard evidence. You have not experienced either. They have not experienced either. These are only beliefs, nothing else.

This is a 'deny ignorance', conspiracy website after all, everyone will go with what they believe - they believe something else to you based on THEIR experience, and evidence. Not yours. Each side will often argue with eachother, which should provide the truth, based on the most amount of evidence. I could change a couple of words, to make your post work against you.

"Many of the CONtrail debunkers pigeonhole themselves in either tangent discussions or the "I can just look up into the sky" argument, when all anyone really has to do to acknowledge the existence of CONtrails is look at the scientific world, regularly, sooner or later they become apparent and undeniable for what they are; CONtrails."

Bla, Bla, Bla. No more hypocritical mind games.

[edit on 28/11/2008 by C0bzz]

reply to post by C0bzz

you adress Zepherian, but i'll also reply for me

1. explain me why those occurs on routes that are not routes for commercial aircrafts

then if you manage question 1,

2. explain me why i can observe these CHEMtrails only in the western world

i guess my knowledge is too poor to believe in my perceptions and observations

forgot russia also

russia admits doing it since 20 years to fix the weather :

to avoid rain during holidays time for example.

In fact, there was an article about that in times of india in may or june.

i should have kept that edition, cause it hasn't been published on the website (or i searched badly).

It was stating that one bag of the chemicals used to create condensation and avoid the formation of clouds didn't open when released from the craft, and fell down straight on a house roof, breaking it !

A russian top-offcial stating, "since 20 years we do this, it is the first time it happens" !

(i don't have time to lose to invent stupid stories, beside it is common that the paper edition of times of india published very unlikely news -that you never find in western papers - here and then as very discrete news far from the headlines)

reply to post by ::.mika.::


The point was that all our beliefs on chemtrails are based on our experience with unusual trails in the sky, usual trails in the sky, aviation, conspiracies, and evidence that we have read. Nobody has been up their and tested, therefore, there is no experience with either Chemtrails or CONtrails specifically, only strange trails. There is no, "I have experienced it and you haven't talk" as some would like to suggest.

I can try to answer your questions, but they are not definitive - I haven't tested the trails myself. My answer to number one would be that they do not follow commercial aircraft routes, as their is no such thing. There are airways, however, but aircraft in general are not required to fly these. You can look on flightaware.com for 'recently used IFR routes'. They are listed with NAVAIDS, but you can find these with SkyVector.com or even Microsoft Flight Simulator. If their is a storm on the flight plan the pilots can also elect to offset the course many, many, miles to the left or right of the original one. And my answer to number two would be air traffic is dramatically denser in Western nations, as are posters on Conspiracy websites.

Your knowledge, perception, and observation are fine - but that doesn't mean you have been their and actually tested the trails, in the air, definitively proven they are Chemtrails. Neither have I been up their and proven they are Contrails. That's all.

[edit on 28/11/2008 by C0bzz]

Originally posted by C0bzz
reply to post by ::.mika.::

 

My answer to number one would be that they do not follow commercial aircraft routes, as their is no such thing. There are airways, however, but aircraft in general are not required to fly these. You can look on flightaware.com for 'recently used IFR routes'. They are listed with NAVAIDS, but you can find these with SkyVector.com or even Microsoft Flight Simulator. If their is a storm on the flight plan the pilots can also elect to offset the course many, many, miles to the left or right of the original one. And my answer to number two would be air traffic is dramatically denser in Western nations, as are posters on Conspiracy websites.
[edit on 28/11/2008 by C0bzz]

sorry doesn't work, where i saw this grids, there is only very small airports incomparable with the places in asia where i never saw them, and this beside huge airports (traffic wise).

i never saw a grid in asia man, i see one every week in europe plus one or two trails everyday.

the traffic is no denser in the place i visit in europe than in asia, sorry.

there is not a chance that the trails are from commercial aircrafts.

reply to post by C0bzz


I didn't just see contrails and believed they were chemtrails, I saw spraying and cloud generation and went to the trouble of correlating with ATC. My sighting was an obvious weather manipulation event, and it wasn't publicized, it was done covertly. There is much more to this than just looking in the sky for a minute and seeing trails, I observed them for hours, made phonecalls, talked to people...

This is not about belief, that's a buzzword skeptics are using to make the phenomenon seem less physical. I know, and won't backtrack on what I have stated because the internet deluded are still stuck in the internet myth phase, which is where I was before witnessing these things.

reply to post by Zepherian


Then give us some proof. That's all we ask for. How can you see something in the sky and know exactly what it is? I'm sure you can think you know what it is, but that is ridiculously arrogant. You do know the world doesn't work like that? That you could have been confused about what you saw?

The arrogance is choking.

reply to post by dave420


Stop shadowing my posts. I don't have proof because I don't have wings. I do however have enough presence of mind, experience and knowledge to know what I am seeing. I am not enslaved to anyone else's validation to know what I am seeing.

If you need an establishment to hold your hand through life and tell you what reality is, that is your problem. I know what I see. I can't however prove it, and I am not sure I would even if I could, for obvious personal security issues. I can however tell people what I have seen. My testimony is evidence however, as some people may realise by reading my posts.

Believe me or not, that's your choice.

it is more about getting rid of heavy conditioning than providing proofs.

when you live in a well, you really believe that the sea is smaller than your well.

but it is so easy to know by oneself, as mentioned before:

one doesn' even need to jump out of the well, one just to go to next airport with a clear mind and look at the trails from commercial planes.

reply to post by ::.mika.::


And what is in those trails?

Besides ice crystals, that is

reply to post by Chadwickus

i wish,

don't you ?

reply to post by Zepherian


You are delusional. You can't possibly tell what happens thousands of feet above you any more than you can stand on a ship and know what's happening at the bottom of the ocean. You are seriously delusional. You seem to think you have a perfect understanding of the world around you, when that couldn't be further from the truth.

I don't need an establishment to hold my hand - I just need evidence. It's called being rational. An idea you clearly do not believe in - hence you being completely, 100% irrational.

And I don't believe you, as you are claiming something you can't possibly know. It's ridiculous.

If you get evidence, I'll be your biggest supporter - that's how science works. That's how rational human beings share ideas and concepts - through evidence. Yes, it's hard to get, but that's the price you pay to change a guess to a fact. If you can't be bothered with that, why on earth should anyone else bother to believe you? You are being intellectually lazy, and blaming it on other people.

reply to post by ::.mika.::


... and realise they are just contrails, formed by a well-known process: condensation.

You are being just as irrational as Zepherian. You are overlooking a rational, obvious explanation in favour of some paranoia-tinged incredibly-theatrical, massively-inefficient, completely-illogical explanation based entirely on your imagination and not the reality in which we all live.

This is getting very boring. You are stamping your feet demanding people believe in this nonsense without a single shred of evidence. Don't be surprised when people refuse to sell their intelligence down river to placate you.

Get evidence and every ATS member will be on your side, myself included. You owe us that much, if you want us to believe.

reply to post by dave420


Prove that I am delusional. You owe me that much. Without proof you're being delusional about me being delusional. It's irrational for you to assume I am being delusional without proof, as any sane scientifically minded person would be forced to admit the possibility I am being sane and honest, and factor that into the probability equation. The fact that you don't probably means you're paranoid. You think everyone is lieing to you, that there is a conspiracy to keep you disinformed. You should probably be diagnosed and medicated.

See how this crap works? (for moderation the above was just rhetoric, not intended as an insult to d420)

Of course some people lie, but not all of us do. All the evidence I am willing to give is a witness testimony. Perhaps, if the situation gets serious enough, I will brake silence and make a more structured in depth case on this, I do not know. But for now you're choice is either believe me or not, all I'm offering is my word and it's free. Why you would ad hominem without even knowing who I am is suspicious though, as is you're whole methodology and insistance Dave.

Originally posted by Zepherian
Many of the chemtrail debunkers pigeonhole themselves in either tangent discussions or the "there's no evidence" argument, when all anyone really has to do to acknowledge the existence of chemtrails is look at the sky regularly anywhere over a metropolitan centre in the western world, sooner or later they become apparent and undeniable for what they are. I don't know exactly what's in them, but from my observations of the after effects I suspect they are somehow toxic and very much a hinderence to normal life as we know it.

I look up every day, AND I live near the busiest airport in the country, sometimes the world. I have yet to see anything but regular contrails. I see persistant contrails, and I see short lived contrails. I even see stop and start contrails. But they're all just contrails.

I should also add that I'm less than 50 miles from where they build F-22s, are modifying C-5s, building brand new C-130s, and work on P-3 Orions. So there are plenty of military planes flying around. And still no chemtrails.

[edit on 11/30/2008 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by ::.mika.::
sorry doesn't work, where i saw this grids, there is only very small airports incomparable with the places in asia where i never saw them, and this beside huge airports (traffic wise).

i never saw a grid in asia man, i see one every week in europe plus one or two trails everyday.

the traffic is no denser in the place i visit in europe than in asia, sorry.

there is not a chance that the trails are from commercial aircrafts.

Oh really? Please point out the "commercial air routes" in this animation. This is a 24 hour period of air traffic in the United States, taken on Sept 06, 2001.

www.edwardtufte.com...

There is no such thing as a "commercial air route". Aircraft are routed along various navigation aides that form a chain to their destination. They can request to climb, descend, or change to another navaid depending on the weather, or turbulence along the way.

reply to post by Zepherian


You are delusional because you have elevated the most flimsy, shoddy evidence (an untrained observer thousands of feet away from said chemtrail, who doesn't seem to understand what a contrail is) as being the gospel truth. The only evidence that demonstrates this to be happening is a direct sampling of a contrail. That is it. That is non-negotiable. This thread is under the "Science" board, so please - be scientific. Gut feelings are not scientific in the slightest.

Until you can be bothered to treat other people on this board like rational adults - and actually provide evidence, don't be surprised when people laugh at you and your, frankly ridiculous, assertions.

Calling out someone's irrational, delusional behaviour is not an ad-hominem attack. The one thing you have demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt in this thread is that you believe what you see without doubt. That you ascribe methods and motives to things you obviously don't understand, and the labour under the idea that they are unwaivering truths. That is delusional. I don't need to know you to know that. No-one does. You've made that obvious enough.

reply to post by dave420


Who says I am an untrained observer? If you read my thread responses a little more closely you might start to realise that comment is not accurate.

Second, who are you to qualify my eyewitness testimony as shabby? Show me the qualifications that allow you to qualify my observations as discardable. Remember that I'm not here to write the book on chemtrails, mearly to state without ambiguity that they are real, that the operations exist and are clandestine. Who are you to say I can't make that observation and be believable? I am sure at least some people believe me, and that will help in them understand what is happening in the world today.