Did Gnosticism try and Usurp Christianity or is it the Real Message of Christ.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by LittlePinky82

 

Hiya Pinky,

Ive never read anything that related to Sophia as knowledge...Ive always read it that she stood for wisdom. Some even say that this is who Solomon loved so much, the female nature of the wisdom of God...the scriptures where Solomon keeps referring to the female nature, he calls wisdom, I believe is the same idea spilling over to the scriptures, a female nature that brings wisdom to the seeking humble soul.

gnostic=knowledge
Sophia=wisdom (of God)

Peace,
LV

Well in one of the gnostic books Sophia is referred to as knowledge. I could be wrong. During my winter break after this term I'll have to re-read and see. I can't remember which book it was heh heh. However isn't knowledge and wisdom basically the same thing?

reply to post by L.I.B.


L.I.B.

Very good point. I really never looked at this scripture this way before. Thank you for giving me something to ponder on for a while.



Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by LittlePinky82


Hello Pinky,

Once I thought more on this, being gnosis meaning knowledge and Sophia being the wisdom, and the idea that one must reach gnosis to gain the wisdom, then I agree, they are the same thing more or less. If you reach one, you reach the other. I wasn't trying to be nit picky (I hope I didn't sound that way), there are plenty of text that refer Sophia as wisdom, its actually the greek translation of Sophia...but all in all, I think your right, more or less, they are the same.

LV

reply to post by Supercertari


Hello super,

I saw you quoted something I said and made a response to it but I am not seeing what your point was supposed to be about my statement I made. I stated a personal opinion of something that resonates with me and you responded with a bunch of stuff about Catholics and some other stuff...frankly I became lost with what your point was.

Could you clarify, if there was a point to be made with what I said pls....

Peace,
LV

[edit on 22-11-2008 by LeoVirgo]

supercetari wrote: "I’m afraid I would completely reverse this interpretation. Christ knew there would be those who would claim particular election to know the mysteries of the Divine so He established His apostolic Church by the particular gift of the Holy Spirirt (the ruach elohim “breath of God”) which He breathed upon the Church at her creation prior to the inherent disunity and chaos of Gnostic claims. "

No, Christ chooses to disclose his myteries to those who are worthy. The congreation walks down the wide path to destruction, but on the narrow path, there is room for only one - and this is exactly why he says, those who arrive alone will go in to the Bridal Chamber. So why doesn't your "Holy Church" teach the Bridal Chamber rite? This is the act of consumation of marriage to God - it is the proof that takes the believer from faith to knowing and it's the single thing that can shut the nay-sayers up and bring them into the fold (if they desire to know the truth).

The kingdom of heaven is once again advancing and forceful people take hold of it. This time it won't be stopped. Like the angel screaming in Revelations 10: 6-7 "'THERE WILL BE NO MORE DELAY!' But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets."



[edit on 22-11-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply to post by Grandma

L.I.B.

Very good point. I really never looked at this scripture this way before. Thank you for giving me something to ponder on for a while.

You are welcome.

There's so much true spiritual wisdom that can be gleaned from the scriptures.

If you don't mind, Grandma, I'd like to ask you a question... about your NDE.

You mentioned that you saw Jesus, and this I don't doubt; but, what I am curious about is you said that the individual called you daughter.

Maybe I am just hung up on a technicality, but wouldn't that have been The Father saying daughter to you? To me, it seems, that Jesus would have had said sister.

Then again, Jesus and The Father being ONE with one another ...

Anyway, just curious.

libby

Originally posted by Grandma
Now, where you and I have our main point of disagreement is the fact that Christ was the prefect blood sacrifice. That is the reason that Jesus had to die. To be our atonement before his Father to cover our sins. If this was not the reason for his death.....what was it and why have all four gospels talk about his needing to die. In 1 Peter 2:24He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed. For you were like sheep going astray but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of you souls.

This is the main point I get hate for. It's not that I don't believe Jesus died on the cross for my sins, it is the reason for it that is in disagreement. It is my belief that he showed me the path, and that through his path I can find the way to heaven. Man was lost, and he came to show the way. He did bear our sins, because it was our sins which killed him, as the leaders of the time rejected and killed him for speaking the truth. He did die so that we might learn from his example.

Jesus tells people - do not be afraid of those who can kill you. And he proves there is no reason to die in his action. He shows people that even though he could fight back, it is better to die than to fight back, and in turn break a commandment and become the evil/sin yourself. In otherwords - you must be the change.

And the way I learned this was understanding what a heavenly and peaceful society will have to be. What do people think of heaven to be? A place where you are left alone, live in peace and so on correct? It would be a society of people who act like Jesus does. Someone who does evil, infringes on the will of others makes such a society impossible. As such, they will not be let in.

Jesus tells people it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle than to get a rich man into heaven. But the church teaches people - just believe in this idol, and everything is ok. It's all so easy. And to me that is nothing more than a marketing ploy.

Who does Jesus say is the rich man in the eyes of god? The one with understanding and knowledge. Understanding and knowledge are the true rewards from god, and rich rewards they are because they can be applied to all aspects of your life for improvement.

In I John 1:7/but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son purifies us from all sin. i John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not just ours but also fir the sins of the whole world. In 1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing (Holy Spirit) you received from him remains in you are you do not need anyone to teach you. But as the anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit - just as is as taught you, remains in him.

Jesus says he is the truth. Light = knowledge and understanding, dark = ignorance. If you seek truth, you will find truth and thus every bit of truth you find brings you that much closer to Jesus. Deception is only allowed in ignorance. As you take and start following truth, then you are purifying yourself.

How does one ask for forgiveness? Do you just say sorry, please forgive me? When you deal with your kids, did you really just want them to say sorry? Or did you really just want them to learn from the mistake and not do it again? Saying sorry is just good manners. The way you ask for forgiveness is by first understanding why you are wrong. And then you don't do it anymore. And when you do that, then you are forgiven. If you ask for forgiveness and then do it again, then you never really asked for it.

Those who seek power hide behind the image. They do not hide behind the teachings because the teachings would take away the ignorance, and people would see right through them.

Also, I'm not one who likes to pigeon hole god into having such limited ways of working. The most important thing Jesus was showing is not to break the commandments(and no reason is valid). I didn't learn from the bible, I had a vision of my own, followed by a completely new way of looking at the world, in which I learned things in a rapid rate through everyday experience. I grew up in the bible belt, was saved 8 times by many different kind of churches, and never gained any understanding. The bible always seemed like mind control to me. Shortly after having the experience, suddenly the words of Jesus started to make sense to me, on a very deep level. And I was almost shocked and amazed to read John 14, which explained what happened to me. In my experience I was never given names, and I never asked for any. But I'm pretty sure it was the holy spirit that gave me the understanding. Mainstream Christians claim that it was Satan trying to deceive me, simply because of that 1 point that started this.

It seems absurd to me to think that god is limited in such ways as just a single book and interpretation. And it is Satan that tries to force a single religion on the world as many Christians do. IMO, Jesus was just a tool of god among many. Different cultures, different ways of expressing truth in ways they understand. It is when the cultures focus merely on the idol, instead of the understandings the religion gives that wars come from. If they all focused on the teachings instead of the idol, they would see similarities, rather than differences. Doesn't matter how, why or when you get the understandings, just so long as you get them. Everyone should have their own vision of things, which is a result of a personal relationship with god. We all have our own perspectives, and every man will think he is right off that perspective.



[edit on 22-11-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by Grandma



Hello Mother! Wow, we have sure expressed a lot of thoughts on here huh? I think this is a good thing for others to see, unconditional love even though our spirits sing to different songs.

About the John Lennon thing...I wasn't trying to hurt you, I felt you were being sarcastic when you stated "Yeah, and look where that got him"...sorry if I mis read this.

About the blood and sins. You are free to believe that we must be covered with blood. I strongly dont. I believe a pure and honest heart with intentions to allow your flesh body to be for the works of the most high is all we need. Christ was not the only son in my eyes, I believe Christ shows me that I too, am a daughter of God, rightfully and worthy as long as I live as Christ lived, more for others then myself, with a humble heart that the spirit is within me. We could debate this without a resolution, for I will continue to believe that Christ showed us how we can escape the world of darkness. I dont think Christ had to die. This doesnt mean that he didnt know that he would, I think he did know that the people would try to kill him. BUT, Christ, being the giver and teacher he was, Christ offered his life to show us all, the life that is important is not here in this world but yet the world that is with Thee above all things. Christ showed us, have no fear, with a humble heart, you will reach what true life is...everlasting.

You say we walk in the light through Christ's blood. Strange you say this because I fully believe I walk in the light and Thee has filled my vessel and is shining through me all the time. Wouldn't Christ know that I dont claim to be washed in his blood? Why would I have such peaceful meditation time with Thee if I did thee wrong by not accepting his blood for my sins? Why do I feel peace in my soul when I come to Thee offering my pure and honest heart? Ive made it clear to Thee that my soul struggles with those teachings of blood, Ive made it clear to Thee that I don't feel this is the way...but yet, my heart is still singing with thee also...and I'm sure there are Buddhist and other beliefs that truly feel they are connected to the Most High of all things. Would you tell them also that they are mistaken? Are they going to miss out on everlasting life because they don't see the importance to accept Christ as a sacrifice? I accept Christ as an offering, an offering is out of love, its a choice. A sacrafice is not a gift, its a forceful thought, the thought that it MUST be done, or else.

Think about this....if God really didn't demand that animals be killed so man could be forgiven...then why would Christ need to be a sacrifice? I dont think either of these blood lettings were works of God. I find them to be works of man.

If we dont get recycled, then truly we are the only thing in mother nature that contains life that doesn't get recycled. I guess there are alot of people burning in hell for they didnt get it right their one time around. That is so sad to think of, I cant hardly bare to imagine this.

You said that you think the gnostic text should of been in the Bible. Do you not see why they are not?? The Israelites wanted to tie Christ to themselves...for he was from their bloodline(even though they were constantly disagreeing with Jesus and his teachings). You cant put a teaching that teaches we have only one life and a teaching that says its a recycling process of many lives of sifting our light and dark in the same book. The Bible has enough contradictions....lets not wish more contradictions to this book, I say anyways. All scriptures should be studied in their own merit and we should always consider the writers of scriptures and what the ancient belief system was of the writers.

I dont think Jesus ever intended for any organized religions to come out of his teachings. Jesus seemed to of taught on the road sides, under trees, outside of temples....I think Jesus was showing us that if we study our own nature, humbly, we will find Thees nature, which is very peaceful and merciful. The organized religions all would of liked to of claimed some part of this great man, for none of them wanted to loose their temples and priest. To think, the answers were within man all along...the temple was our bodies. Do you think that if this is what Jesus taught that the organized and orthodox leaders would want us to know this?

Ohhh opinions...where do they get us? Well, in this thread, they have allowed others to see how passionate different believers can be and how much different beliefs feel that their spirit sings with Thee Most High. Are we all right? Are we all wrong? Back to the Love thing.... No matter the opinions and facts...love in the end conquers them all. So yes, Love can get us very very far in this life of flesh and darkness. In fact, it can pull your soul out of this fire of forgetfulness as long as your heart is true to itself and Thee.

Peace to all,
LV

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by LittlePinky82

 

Hello Pinky,

Once I thought more on this, being gnosis meaning knowledge and Sophia being the wisdom, and the idea that one must reach gnosis to gain the wisdom, then I agree, they are the same thing more or less. If you reach one, you reach the other. I wasn't trying to be nit picky (I hope I didn't sound that way), there are plenty of text that refer Sophia as wisdom, its actually the greek translation of Sophia...but all in all, I think your right, more or less, they are the same.

LV

Oh I understand. We're on the same page I just wanted to make sure. I do remember reading in one of the gnostic books that Sophia was knowledge but I guess wisdom is just another translation?

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Hi,

You say we walk in the light through Christ's blood. Strange you say this because I fully believe I walk in the light and Thee has filled my vessel and is shining through me all the time. Wouldn't Christ know that I dont claim to be washed in his blood? Why would I have such peaceful meditation time with Thee if I did thee wrong by not accepting his blood for my sins? Why do I feel peace in my soul when I come to Thee offering my pure and honest heart? Ive made it clear to Thee that my soul struggles with those teachings of blood, Ive made it clear to Thee that I don't feel this is the way...but yet, my heart is still singing with thee also...and I'm sure there are Buddhist and other beliefs that truly feel they are connected to the Most High of all things. Would you tell them also that they are mistaken?

Hope you don't mind my interjecting and offering my own understanding regarding this blood that you struggle with.

In the bible it states that the LIFE is in the blood.

My understanding of the blood of Jesus is living the LIFE that Jesus lived in his interior, where blood is found. And that LIFE is one of union with the God of us all.


Edit to correct spelling.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by L.I.B.]

reply to post by L.I.B.


L.I.B.

Yes, he clearly held my hand and said......Daughter I have been waiting for you.

Now I do believe that he and God are one in the same. I know some have a problem with that.

And Michael took me to Egypt and showed me many secret things there.

It was quite and adventure!


Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by L.I.B.


Hello LBI

I dont mind others thoughts at all, thanks for bringing your thoughts forward. I do see where you and my mother get your ideas. Truly, our blood is what gives our vessles our life. But, what is life? Is it just the cycling of blood through a vessel? I think we all know that it is much more. To be born into the flesh is to be washed in a illution of life, we THINK this is life, we see things, we feel its all real before our eyes...but what most dont see is that this is not life. Life to the spiritual person is an everlasting exsistence with Thee.

Adam means-mankind
Eve mean-life

Mankind received life.

The reason many religions in the old days sacrificed animals was because they claimed that their Gods told them to do this, that their Gods (or God) was able to dwell with them through the blood that was offered to the God. There are many beliefs that a god seems to gain some sort of ENERGY from the blood letting. When a life is taken, I believe there is a energy released back into thin air. Could demons or dark spirits dwell with man through blood (death)? I think so.

God is life, everything of God is life. The sacrifices of a animal is connected to death. How is it that God can need this death? How can death of something take away sins of something else? Im afraid I will never return to that teaching.

The only thing that atones for a sin in my book is my pure thoughts of what I have done and if I have learned from it, allowing it to humble me. Doesn't Jesus say that where death is, you will not find Thee? Mabey Im wrong, Ill have to look this up. Either way, my spirit is satisfied with my feelings.

As soon as the Bible starts teaching that a man must bring a animal and kill it so God can consume its blood...wow...my stomach gets sick feeling.

Peace and best intentions,
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Sweetheart:

The thing about hell isn't so much 'burning in fire' as it is a complete separation for Thee. He no longer hears our cries or our prayers. He can not look upon sin. Yes, it is sad that there will be some who will be lost from God but it is not his choice. We have a whole lifetime to come to the Father and I think he sends out many life rafts. It is up to us to take him up on the offer.

The blood was the life of the animal. That is what was sacrificed. The animal was the living atonement for the sins of the people. However, this was not a perfect blood atonement and Christ knew from the beginning that he was going to come as God in the flesh., the One True Son of The Living God. Anyway, he was a gift from the Father....an atonement for our sins and the world. Because he was the Son he was the perfect sacrifice or offering. Jesus did willing offer himself up while he was still praying in the garden.

It is through his blood (life force) that we have eternal life with our Father.


Love ya,
Mom

reply to post by Grandma

Yes, he clearly held my hand and said......Daughter I have been waiting for you.

Now I do believe that he and God are one in the same. I know some have a problem with that.

I don't have a problem with that. Not at all. Of course, I have a very broad view of God, too... and that most seem to have a problem with, lol.

And Michael took me to Egypt and showed me many secret things there.

It was quite and adventure!

Oh! I am sure! I, myself, have had some amazing adventures too as well meetings of individuals in the Spirit realm.

The joy, the awe, it's immeasurable.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Hi LV,

Thank you for your warm response.

I don't wish for you to adopt anything that turns your stomach, ever!

The understandings that you have now allow you to drink deep of the fountain. Who am I to change this in any fashion.

About the blood though. I wasn't speaking of literal blood, but that which is the essence of Life i.e. that fountain that you receive such delight and union with when you go into your interior.

The Truth is that there are several levels of understanding scattered through the pool of mankind. When the MAN, very human, that would become known as the "JESUS" of today was walking upon the earth, he did somethings special. When that man left the the pool of mankind the task of spreading the phenomenon that was that man fell to other men.

Understanding that there are several plains of understanding, some higher and more lower, it fell to a group of men to try to make a unformed story statisis.

Truth is the higher levels of understanding are premature and trying to follow after Gnosticim could be a very rocky road as, and though the minds of man can reach such hights of consciouness the base level would make such reaching a tiresome and misleading adventure.

In fact there were several conseptualization models explored, and the one that won out was the won that the majority could understand. It would seem that in those days the "Majority Rule" was the case. Although this turned the more then human human man that would become known as Jesus the mythological idol of Gold, it was for the best intrest. The hidden Truths of the story can still be seen by higher minded individual. Those that might think that others are keeping them back with their lower minds are just egotistical fools as that doesn't suport the brotherhood of mankind.

The "Real" message of the Christ is this:

You've been born into an existance created by a loving Father God. God offers to you sonship, and that is a neverending ever increasing joy filled journy toward the understanding and expantion of your self. Those of us born out of the animal stock are less perfect then we could be and we should step foward on the road to self actualized perfection as that is the only thanks we can give unto our father and thus is the price of the heavenly ride. This self perfection comes in many percepts, and the only way not to achieve is to fall into the self grandiziment of sin againt others.

The first rule of self improvement is learning to be kinder to your brotherhood. That includes everyone even those that are the most evil bastards.

You are a child of God and the only person that can ruine that for you is you. Do not taint your view by thinking to yourself "well if God doesn't want me the way he created me then he can't be God". As God has given you a gift of free will, and like a gift of a gun it can be deadly in the hands of someone that misuses it, but the finger on the triger is yourown.

Originally posted by whiteraven
Why would your Holy Mother Church burn the Gnostic texts as well as the Gnostics?
I do not mean that in a flaming way, just a honest question from reading History. Even the last Pope apologized for it.
So I would not view anybody who burns books and people as Holy in any sense of the word.
What is worse, than just killing is killing in the name of God. How in the world can a organization have a rule that states ..Do not kill....yet still have the blood of so many on its hands.
The tree is known by its fruit.

The tree, vine, of the Church is indeed known by its fruits. After 2,000 years she persists despite the machinations of some of her sons and daughters who were more motivated than power and politics than by faith. Like any tree of great age some of it's fruits of the past will have been contaminated by the wrom of corruption but the tree itself continues to stand strong and its leaves have indeed proved medicinal for the many millions who have benefited from its health-care, charitable works and other benefices to humanity.
The Church is not anybody, the Church is the Mystical Body of Christ.

reply to post by L.I.B.



Hello again LIB,

I just want to say that I think there are many here in this thread that have shown that the fountain is partaken by many and those many come from different directions along different narrow paths that brought them to a relation with a higher self, God, Thee Most High...we all might have different names that we call this relation and we all might have different meanings to what scriptures portray, but a true humble heart and a spirit of love can be recognized without a doubt in the eyes of light and love. Thee knows if we seek out of pride or gratitude or humbleness.


Thank you for your humbling respect for others and their thoughts and I hope I have made others feel that there is room for all in such discussions, aside from stating personal opinions.

Much love,
LV

reply to post by badmedia

badmedial:

You do believe that Jesus died for you sins but you don't believe the reason. I find that strange.

Hebrews 9:23 It was necessary, then for the copies of the heavenly things (altar objects) to be purified with these sacifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ did not enter a man made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once and after that to face judgement, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said. "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. You see Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek..

Now John tells us not to love the world (darkness) but he tell us that God is light; from him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him YET walk in the darkness, we LIE and do not live by the TRUTH. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. He also says; Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

I consider myself a follower of Christ I do not label myself a gnostic all though I do find some truth in some of the text. I myself am not in the darkness and I have sweet beautiful fellowship with my Father in heaven. As I have said before, when I come before him with my humbled self and and he comes so ever so softly and lifts my spirit up to meet his......it is indeed a most humbling experience to KNOW my Father in such a loving way. Jesus came into this world to testify to the truth. Everything on the side of truth listens to me is what he told Pilate. I feel I KNOW the truth as my spirit dwells with his. All I know is in our fellowship time together he puts the sweetest song in my heart that sings ans soars to heaven that only he and I can hear. It is the greatest story ever told and no greater love could ever be given to one such as I.


Peace,
Grandma