Did Gnosticism try and Usurp Christianity or is it the Real Message of Christ.

reply to post by Mr Anunnaki


Mr. Anunnaki:

I have been a Christian over 35 years. In that time I have walked a path so close to God I could almost reach out and touch him. It was almost scary. I have also found myself "burnt out" from the needs of others always needing me to talk to, to be with, to cry with, to laugh with, to reason with. When I became a Christian I didn't trouble myself with the fact that Jesus was Gnostic or not. I just KNEW I believed in him and during my reading the scriptures, my alone time with my savior, and my growing through the Holy Spirit, I had a song in my heart that reached Heaven itself. I always have this song in my heart. Do I think Jesus has shown me "secrets", well, that is between me and Christ.

One can come to faith as a babe and with a humble heart and a humble spirit, and a humble mind, God can take care of the rest.

Just my two cents worth! I think we get too hung up sometimes WORKING too hard to try and get it right.......that in the simpliest of terms it is right there before us....If only we LOOK with spiritual eyes.

We make it so hard to understand.......but it is really so simple.


Peace in Christ Jesus,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma


Yes, Peter's wife traveled with him and Paul used it as a point of his suffering....Paul commented that he has the right to take a wife with him as well but that he sacrificed this right in order to benifit the Corinthians....the point being that he was suffering for their good as the Corinthians lended themselves to drinking way too much wine during communion, steeling from the offering for widows etc etc .....

Paul seems to be very gnostic. Afterall...he was caught up and given things to which cannot be communicated in human language!!

I spent a long time looking at the Pauline Revelation and I concluded that the US brand of Christianity is very false. (Canada included)

Paul lived the beatitudes. He humbled himself from being the Pharasee of Pharasee's, studied under the feet of Gameil.

Paul was brought up in Jerusalem and "trained in the school of Gamaliel according to the strict interpretation of our ancestral law," (Acts 22:3).

www.abovetopsecret.com.../&pid=5354813

St. Paul was being groomed to run Israel...or the Jewish nation under the Romans.

Anyhow, he gave that up after his donkey ride, lol, and then disapeared into the desert to "obtain his revelation."....wow..does that now Gnostic???

He perplexed a lot of people, including Peter, who no doubt was discovering that what God has cleansed let no man call unclean.

The very essence of Jesus Christ can be found in the very humble attitude found in the Pauline letters as well as fantastic ideas concerning the identification with/in and for Jesus Christ through his death, burial and reserection.

As Pauls says in the book of Acts..."In Him we live and move and have our being"....as he argued the finer details of Christianity with the kings and the leaders of Philosophy of that day and age while being hel a prisoner for most of his Christian carreer.

St. Paul would be a hunted man if he lived in this day and age.

reply to post by Grandma


Grandma you are a jewel in the eyes of the Great Cloud of witness's.

I will say it again...Grandma you are a jewel in the eyes of the Great Cloud of witness's.

reply to post by whiteraven


whiteraven:

Oh, I agree with you. Paul was certainly called to preach by Christ. I can almost see him waving his arms about and talking with such urgent love in his heart for all to know Christ the way he did.


I find all his letters straight and to the point and I like that. Of all of them I think I like the book of Romans the best. Don't really know why, they all move me, just have a special likeness for it.


Peace,
Grandma

reply to post by whiteraven


you humble me, not I but Christ is what shines through my words and my heart.



In His Holy Name,
Grandma

Christ did seem to teach in 'secrets' to a point....look at all the parables that are left with his name on them. Look at all the times Christ kept telling the followers, I teach you but you dont hear, I show you but your eyes are not open, see with your one eye and fill it with light, therefor your whole body will be filled with that light.....I think its very possible that the Nag Hammadi text are teachings of Christ.

I would not go as far to say any text are word for word all of Christs saying quoted properly. Im sure each sect wrote things that fit their former beliefs to a degree. So I take them all, NT and the Nag Hammadi text and weigh them with my heart...the foundation of the teachings are the same, love, peace, mercy and grace. Wasn't it John that said Jesus said and did many other things that would not be written here? Something like that?

I personally dont relate Jesus fitting into the OT teachings of replacing the sacrificing of animals with his own body and that this was necessary for our sins. The only thing necessary for our sins, now and ever was, is awareness with in the heart. So I guess I tend to lean more towards the gnostic side of things, I feel that we are supposed to seek out what things mean and seek deeper understanding of all things. I think the gnostic verses about saying of Jesus seem to relate to showing us how science works, the works of our energies, working as light, working as vibrations, the prime vibration of light being....love. The 'warrior for light' saying just resonates with me.

Back to the parables....to me, this shows, Jesus wanted us to seek deeply within for answers....if not, it would be black and white without question. We are left with many scriptures and our intuition. I dont claim anything but I seek everything.

LV

I haven't really studied either of these at length or very well either.

But there does seem to be some agreement with the gnostics by many readers as to how the god of the old testament was much harsher than what some would call a true god would or should act. The new gospel as if makes these corections suggested by a more human example. Sounds to me like a bad actor in the first palce.

There are even possibilites of those who may have done false miracles and atrocities pretending to be the messiah figure, just as some ficitonal science fiction movies have suggested such as spiderman or some super hero.

The question should also be apparent by the limits god or whomever had on protecting the messiah figure from the alleged threats of death.

The logic just doesn't fit for a god with supposedly limitless powers. This would also suggest ficitonional alterations from the truth also.

I guess we need to travel back in time to see the real story. Arguing over what may be real and or fiction is what people do with the writer, director and producers of a movie.

To myself, Jesus or a messiah figure would have been a visting philosopher and doctor from a much higher advanced civilzation.

Antoher part of Gnostic text that resonates with me is the idea that it was NOT the MOST HIGH who brought the destruction of people by flood. The idea that there was a spirit below Thee Most High that only CLAIMED to be GOd....truly this spirit did believe thee was God because this spirit could not KNOW God because of the chaotic birth of this spirit by Sophia (the counterpart of Christ, the womb of God).This teaching would allow the Most High to ONLY BE OF LOVE AND GRACE with no capability to experience wrath, hate, anger, greed,or pride. This teaching resonates with me deeply.

Peace,
LV

There are certain teachings of Jesus that can be seen as Gnostic--such as a renunciation of the world--but I would hesitate to define him as such, as people have been interpreting him for the last 200 years as everything from a socialist anarchist to an orthodox Rabbi.

There is nothing in any Gnostic texts about Jesus being married to Mary Magdalene; that is a Dan Brown invention. While he is said to have loved her more than the other apostles, this is probably best interpreted as allegorical, where Mary represents the "true" Gnostic disciples.

There is, of course, the issue of Gnostics believing themselves to be "superior" to the ordinary faith. This was unfortunate in many ways, especially when the assault from the Catholic heresiologists fermented a strong "us versus them" mentality that only made them more secretive. But it is important to understand that the Gnostics were absolutely convinced that they knew the truth, and that everyone else was being deceived by people more concerned with external power structures than spiritual liberation. The Coptic Apocalypse of Peter illustrates their viewpoint:

"They will cleave to the name of a dead man, thinking that they will become pure. But they will become greatly defiled and they will fall into a name of error, and into the hand of an evil, cunning man and a manifold dogma, and they will be ruled without law."
...
"And there shall be others of those who are outside our number who name themselves bishop and also deacons, as if they have received their authority from God. They bend themselves under the judgment of the leaders. Those people are dry canals."

As it is a touchy subject, I will try not to cast judgment one way or the other. However, I doubt most of the people these days who consider themselves Gnostic could explain what the thirty Valentinian Æons actually mean, or truly believe that malevolent Archons rule the world and feed on our soul juice to sustain themselves.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Eleleth]

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.


18. The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?" Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


53. His disciples said to him, "is circumcision useful or not?" He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."

From the Gospel of St thomas. Gnostic. www.spiritual.com.au...


As you can see that many of these sayings contradict the catholic views.

[edit on 21-11-2008 by IvanZana]

reply to post by IvanZana


I'm not an expert in either Gnosticism or Catholicism, but can you explain where in the passage you cite it contradicts Catholic teaching?

About gnosticism being "secret", a large part of that was probably because they'd get killed if they practiced in openly. I've heard that Kabbalah went sort of underground for a long time until society was ready for its wisdom, and I think by "ready" they mean "will not hit us with sticks" lol. Although, you still see that in some of the middle eastern countries but that's another topic.

The question of whether Jesus was "gnostic" or not really isn't that important. To most gnostics, he was gnostic and that's all that really matters.

reply to post by americandingbat


53. His disciples said to him, "is circumcision useful or not?" He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect

ANother thing that catholicism contradicts is the ancient teachings is that they convince you that you need beads and to repeat chants or that you are powerless and need a priest to talk to god for you which is pretty much whitchcraft.

Some intereting snips from the Nag Hammadi-

www.gnosis.org... (Origins of the World-this title was added, it was originally found with no title)

-And when Pistis Sophia desired to cause the thing that had no spirit to be formed into a likeness and to rule over matter and over all her forces, there appeared for the first time a ruler, out of the waters, lion-like in appearance, androgynous, having great authority within him, and ignorant of whence he had come into being. Now when Pistis Sophia saw him moving about in the depth of the waters, she said to him, "Child, pass through to here," whose equivalent is 'yalda baoth'.

Since that day, there appeared the principle of verbal expression, which reached the gods and the angels and mankind. And what came into being as a result of verbal expression, the gods and the angels and mankind finished. Now as for the ruler Yaltabaoth, he is ignorant of the force of Pistis: he did not see her face, rather he saw in the water the likeness that spoke with him. And because of that voice, he called himself 'Yaldabaoth'. But 'Ariael' is what the perfect call him, for he was like a lion. Now when he had come to have authority over matter, Pistis Sophia withdrew up to her light.

When the ruler saw his magnitude - and it was only himself that he saw: he saw nothing else, except for water and darkness - then he supposed that it was he alone who existed. His [...] was completed by verbal expression: it appeared as a spirit moving to and fro upon the waters. And when that spirit appeared, the ruler set apart the watery substance. And what was dry was divided into another place. And from matter, he made for himself an abode, and he called it 'heaven'. And from matter, the ruler made a footstool, and he called it 'earth'. -

www.gnosis.org...

The Dialogue of the Savior-
The Savior said, "The lamp of the body is the mind. As long as the things inside you are set in order, that is, [...], your bodies are luminous. As long as your hearts are dark, the luminosity you anticipate [...] I have [...] I will go [...] my word [...] I send [...]."
His disciples said, "Lord, who is it who seeks, and [...] reveals?"
The Lord said to them, "He who seeks [...] reveals [...]."
Matthew said, "Lord, when I [...] and when I speak, who is it who [...] and who listens?"
The Lord said, "It is the one who speaks who also listens, and it is the one who can see who also reveals."

more-
-Judas said, "Truly, I want [...]."
The Lord said to him, "[...] living [...] dwells [...] entire [...] the deficiency [...]."
Judas said, "Who [...]?"
The Lord said to him, "[...] all the works which [...] the remainder, it is they which you [...]."
Judas said, "Behold! The governors dwell above us, so it is they who will rule over us!"
The Lord said, "It is you who will rule over them! But when you rid yourselves of jealousy, then you will clothe yourselves in light and enter the bridal chamber."
Judas said, "How will our garments be brought to us?"
The Lord said, "There are some who will provide for you, and there are others who will receive [...]. For it is they who will give you your garments. For who will be able to reach that place which is the reward? But the garments of life were given to man because he knows the path by which he will leave. And it is difficult even for me to reach it!" -

more-
-Mary said, "Of what sort is that mustard seed? Is it something from heaven or is it something from earth?"
The Lord said, "When the Father established the cosmos for himself, he left much over from the Mother of the All. Therefore, he speaks and he acts." -


Apocryphon of John
www.gnosis.org...

And I asked to know it, and he said to me, "The Monad is a monarchy with nothing above it. It is he who exists as God and Father of everything, the invisible One who is above everything, who exists as incorruption, which is in the pure light into which no eye can look.

"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name.

"He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility. (He is) not in perfection, nor in blessedness, nor in divinity, but he is far superior. He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him. He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan. For he who precedes someone does not lack, that he may receive from him. For rather, it is the latter that looks expectantly at him in his light.

"For the perfection is majestic. He is pure, immeasurable mind. He is an aeon-giving aeon. He is life-giving life. He is a blessedness-giving blessed one. He is knowledge-giving knowledge. He is goodness-giving goodness. He is mercy and redemption-giving mercy. He is grace-giving grace, not because he possesses it, but because he gives the immeasurable, incomprehensible light. -


Im sure this can get this topic going-there is much much more to add if this interests anyone.

Peace,
LV

reply to post by IvanZana

Today, while non-therapeutic male circumcision
remains common in some places, as a general prac-
tice it is forbidden in Catholic teaching for more
basic reasons of respect for bodily integrity. The
Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "Except
when performed for strictly therapeutic medical
reasons, directly intended amputations, mutilations
and sterilizations performed on innocent persons
are against moral law" (No. 2297).

Elective circumcision clearly violates that stan-
dard. It is an amputation and mutilation, and, to my
knowledge,... no significant medical group in the
world defends it as having any therapeutic value.
In 1999 the Council on Scientific Affairs of the
American Medical Association stated that neonatal
circumcision is non-therapeutic because no disease
is present and no therapeutic treatment is required.

Source

I assume you're not Catholic


[edit on 11/21/08 by americandingbat]

reply to post by Eleleth


YHWH needed blood from the people in the OT, so its not much different idea about the Archeons needing something from us besides our awareness of our wrong doings. Just thoughts here, like I stated before, I follow nothing word for word with all certainty.

LV

Unfortunately, they also thought that the revelation of Christ was reserved for those who still have within themselves a spark of the divine spirit, who alone have the ability to understand his real message. For these people the "knowledge" was a guarantee of salvation, but not everyone was privileged to have it. Indeed, not all human beings were considered complete. Most of them were only bodies devoid of souls, destined to die without leaving a trace.


This source is a part of the gnostic viewpoints. What I have a little problem with is that but not everyone was privileged to have it. Indeed, not all human beings were considered complete. Most of them were only bodies devoid of souls, destined to die without leaving a trace. It is my belief that ALL of us have this SPARK of the divine spirit and all of us through our humbled walk with our savior will be on a path if we ask for spiritual wisdom to understand the real message. I JUST CAN NOT BELIEVE THAT THEE WOULD CREATE HUMAN BEINGS DESTINED TO DIE WITHOUT A SOUL, IS THAT A LOVING GOD?

Again, I don't know about all this gnostic stuff if Jesus was this or that.

MY Jesus is a Jesus full of love, mercy, forgiveness, faithful, and when we meet together it is like I soar to heaven its self and can see the angels. When we are ALONE in our prayer closet no one sees no one hears. It is just your spirit becoming one with his spirit and it is a most humbling experience.
Does it matter to me if Jesus was gnostic or not? Not at all!

What matters is we ALL have the most meaningful relationship that we can with him. Praise God, we can have the most beautiful experience in the world with us ALL the time. He lives in your heart, your soul, your mind, your body. What is important is the fact THAT HE LIVES. Amen!


Peace in Christ our Savior
Grandma

Some might want to read the following-Wiki is good for some things

aeons-
en.wikipedia.org...

pleroma-
en.wikipedia.org...

archons-
en.wikipedia.org...

The Demiurge-
en.wikipedia.org...

Saklas-
en.wikipedia.org...

Sophia-
en.wikipedia.org...(wisdom)

Emanationism
en.wikipedia.org...

The Monad-
en.wikipedia.org...(Gnosticism)

Syzygy-
en.wikipedia.org...

Samael-
en.wikipedia.org...

LV

reply to post by Grandma



Hi Mom! (Grandma is my mother)

I figured we would cross paths on this topic

Can you show me where you read this about not everyone having a soul. Now I do remember reading how Adam was not the first to have a soul, that is was Eve, for she had the life in her which Adam did not....I dont remember reading that some are still born this way. I have not by any means read all of the gnostic texts so a little help on this one...

Love L

Originally posted by Grandma
This source is a part of the gnostic viewpoints. What I have a little problem with is that but not everyone was privileged to have it. Indeed, not all human beings were considered complete. Most of them were only bodies devoid of souls, destined to die without leaving a trace. It is my belief that ALL of us have this SPARK of the divine spirit and all of us through our humbled walk with our savior will be on a path if we ask for spiritual wisdom to understand the real message. I JUST CAN NOT BELIEVE THAT THEE WOULD CREATE HUMAN BEINGS DESTINED TO DIE WITHOUT A SOUL, IS THAT A LOVING GOD?

Perhaps there were some that believed this, but the Apocryphon of John makes it pretty clear that those who did not lead a spiritual life would be doomed only to repeat the cycle of rebirth, until such time as the soul "became perfect" and was "saved." There are many people, even reputable scholars, who misunderstand just how essential reincarnation was in Gnostic beliefs.

"For the power will descend on every man, for without it no one can stand."

They believed that the vast majority of humanity lived their lives in a sort of sleep state, concerned only with material pleasures and never remembering who they were and that their true home was in the stars. You could make a few analogies to certain conspiracy theorists on this forum, who constantly bemoan how all of their friends and relatives are "asleep" or "sheeple" who just live their lives like automatons, never seeking to question anything.

Hell seems to be a place reserved solely for Gnostics who strayed from the path

[edit on 21-11-2008 by Eleleth]