I do not want socialism

Originally posted by givemeliberty or beer
reply to post by switching yard

 

That is exactly what I was trying to say. I tend to lean toward isolationist as well. I think the vast majority of Americans will simply accept what is happening and not do anything to upset their comfotable lifestyles. Our forefathers went to war with the strongest nation on earth because of a few pennies. I just can't see that happening now.

Uh no hon isolationist is really childish and immature since we are a part of the world community. If you want to make profits and to turn your country into a profitable nation you can't be an isolationist. How are you ever going to sell anything to people if you don't engage with them?

Originally posted by xpert11

Originally posted by givemeliberty or beer
No offense, but pure socialism will never work here, even though I believe we are on the way.

If you mean having the likes of a government run health care system with no private sector involvement at all then I am incline to agree with you .

what's the incentive to work harder if you won't be allowed to enjoy the fruits of your labor?

If I could afford private health insurance here in New Zealand I would certainly opt for it . Health Care aside there is many things for people including myself to work towards . Bear in mind that I can only speak for myself on this next bit . I desire to better myself regardless of the NZ health system .

If everybody makes the same, where will the tax money come from?

Look its not about everyone earning the same amount its about ensuring a level playing field so you don't end up with a ruling elite . At its worst a ruling elite can breed extremists as was seen in the lead up to 1917 in Russia . Clearly you have to certain measures such as Superannuation

This country was founded on the premise that if you work hard, stay out of trouble, help your friends and neihbors when they need it, the government will stay out of your way and let you succed.

Thats all good in all expect for such a idea to work you cant have corporate socialism which rules the US and is far worse then any government run health care system .

And when you lose your job what are you going to do about health care? I don't have health insurance and it's expensive as #. Just for a basic check up and lab test for medicine that I take. My last visit was $250!

I suggest you look at what is going on in Latin America right now.

Originally posted by givemeliberty or beer
Healthcare for all will not work here. what's the incentive to work harder if you won't be allowed to enjoy the fruits of your labor?

Why not? We have healthcare for all in Australia. It's not perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than the US!! So does the UK. I would not dare to set foot in your country without travel insurance!! I was there in 2006 and there was no way I was going to get caught paying huge medical bills.

One of the friends I travelled with in the US is an asthmatic and needs ventalin puffers when he has attacks. He ran out of them in the US and was told it would be $120 for new one!!!! Here in Australia they are around $10!!!

What the hell does your tax money go towards?????

[edit on 21-11-2008 by swinggal]

Originally posted by swinggal

Originally posted by givemeliberty or beer
Healthcare for all will not work here. what's the incentive to work harder if you won't be allowed to enjoy the fruits of your labor?

Why not? We have healthcare for all in Australia. It's not perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than the US!! So does the UK. I would not dare to set foot in your country without travel insurance!! I was there in 2006 and there was no way I was going to get caught paying huge medical bills.

One of the friends I travelled with in the US is an asthmatic and needs ventalin puffers when he has attacks. He ran out of them in the US and was told it would be $120 for new one!!!! Here in Australia they are around $10!!!

What the hell does your tax money go towards?????

[edit on 21-11-2008 by swinggal]

Being in Iraq? *shrug*

reply to post by LittlePinky82


What on earth are you objecting to ?
There is no reason why the NZ or even US health care system couldn't be some kind of public - private sector blend . Clearly the private and public sectors cannot handle health care adequately by themselves .

Cheers xpert11 .

Originally posted by xpert11
reply to post by LittlePinky82

 

What on earth are you objecting to ?
There is no reason why the NZ or even US health care system couldn't be some kind of public - private sector blend . Clearly the private and public sectors cannot handle health care adequately by themselves .

Cheers xpert11 .

We've seen that the private industry is about profit and it's currently corrupt. Unless they clean up their act and start caring about the consumer instead of making profits I wouldn't trust them for anything. Personally I would like a system like the U.K. or France. I wouldn't be surprised however if we end up having something like Sweden. It seems to work for them at least...

I disagree with those that claim that America is following the ideas of the communist manifesto.
How did you guys come to that conclusion anyway?

And what is so scary about socialism?
It really isn't that much of a threat as you see it. It does not mean that everyone will be able to slack, it does not mean that a man who works hard will not reap the benefits. It does not mean that at all. It is more like building a safety net on which any of us can fall on and use at any time should we need. Why should we let those who are disadvantaged suffer with no way out?
I think modern America has an extremely skewed view of exactly what socialism is.

The real problem is nationalism and its associated economic policies. National socialism, where the nation state can not accept anything lower than full employment and the highest quality of living for its own citizenry, doing whatever it takes to achieve that, including massive bailouts and the subversion of foreign populations through multinational corporations, is especially irresponsible for the global economy.

Although in essence granting your citizens health benefits, improved labor standards, rights to collective bargaining, increased wages, etc. might seem nice, they are only warranted when the country actually deserves it, when it is actually producing capital wealth and when it appears it is continuing to do so. Rome was obsessed with providing its citizens luxuries it really could not afford. For all of Roman history, the governors and the Caesars recognized that true power was held in the people. Although they wouldn't admit that privately, they full well knew they had to appease them. For the same reasons, governments act accordingly today. What's sad is that the people bring Socialism upon themselves. Knowing how powerful our country is on the international market, and militarily, we can push all our myriad interests and waste all our tax dollars for our own selfish pursuits, and not for the betterment of society.

The fact is this country is consuming way too much and the reason things keep failing is because the government is providing a moral hazard for everything to fail. For example, a private hospital that wouldn't otherwise be able to get loans from a bank, is getting their money for free from the government. They will then adapt reckless and inefficient behavior because they know they are confident of their safety net. When that net disappears, we have failure and we see people advocating socialism. Socialism breeds more Socialism. But before that notion is even possible, you need a strong sense of Nationalism, which induces a change in policy toward Socialism. During times of recession, governments fail to address these issues, and we see Radicalism.

The best solution is the separation of economy and state, and the total abandonment of national interests. Such a transition could only be feasible over multiple generations, if decided to be pursued today.

If the government's main purpose was not to extract wealth from the rest of the world and put it in its citizen's hands, then perhaps the world would be a more stable place. Unfortunately, the way our businesses run and the fact that our currency is the world's largest reserve of money, means that things just won't change over night. The US has a very, very long history of national self interest. It's been that way since the beginning. As long as there is an irrational imbalance of wealth, there will be seemingly irrational conflicts of power.

That said. With Socialism our individual rights are diminished, yet we allow this to occur because it satisfies our desires and our whims of what we "believe" to be true happiness. Such a society is morally ill. They have low self-esteem.

Blah blah blah. I don't mean this towards everyone here, but this thread contains the same old song I've been reading here for months. If you people don't want socialism in the US, then a really good start would be to get behind the Fair Tax.

If you're one of the people complaining about unfair taxation and the I.R.S., then get behind the Fair Tax and force our politicians to abolish it.

Don't give them an out by supporting a "flat tax" There is too much gray area with a flat tax. First it'll be a flat rate for everyone, then it'll be two flat rates, then three separate flat rates. Well, then we are back to where we are now with different rates. Same damn difference.

"Flat tax" is just a cozy phrase for politicians to calm down pesky voters when they start threatening tax revolt! Its just an easy way for politicians to say they are going to reform taxes while changing nothing.

With the Fair Tax, they don't get the wiggle room to continue fooling voters.

Go to the Fair Tax site and educate yourselves if you are unfamiliar with this legislation. This is legislation before our House and Senate now, and it'll still be there in 2 years if the Democrats won't support it.

So, you can complain, b#tch and moan all you want here, while the solution you are asking for is right under your nose. Obviously if you can write a post here, you can also write your Representatives and Senators and demand they support the Fair Tax and let them know you'll vote them out if they won't.

I've seen all the arguments against the Fair Tax, so if you feel compelled to argue, save your breath and continue b!tching and moaning here as normal. But if you really want to change things, you know what to do.

Who was it who said democracy is doomed to fail because people will simply vote themselves more and more benefits until the system crashes? An old, semi-famous historical quote. It looks like he may have been correct in some regards. It's not necessarily the PEOPLE doing the voting here but the PEOPLE'S REPRESENTATIVES, eg., the government. They are simply going to print up/squeeze via taxes as much bailout money as possible, socializing everything, perhaps even including citizen debt. This madness will go on until the system utterly collapses and we have some form of socialism.

Not by any means saying this is a good thing, but it seems to be happening. Perhaps Democracy is ultimately a flawed, inherently unsustainable system (blasphemy to many, I know, but I'm just kicking around ideas here). The US is the world's oldest democracy, at a little mosre than 200 years old. That's not a very long time from a historical perspective. Most other democracies like in Europe, etc. are basically socialist to a greater or lesser degree. Before the example of the US, you have to go back to ancient, pre-empire Rome to find another democracy/republic, and that one didn't last very long either.

Perhaps all democracies and republics are doomed to collapse into either imperials/fascist states or socsialist/communist states. Disturbing to think about, but the evidence all around us makes me wonder.

Originally posted by swinggal


One of the friends I travelled with in the US is an asthmatic and needs ventalin puffers when he has attacks. He ran out of them in the US and was told it would be $120 for new one!!!! Here in Australia they are around $10!!!

What the hell does your tax money go towards?????

[edit on 21-11-2008 by swinggal]

The unfortunate reality here in North America is the insatiable ruling couple. In other words, "government inc." and his lovely wife lady "big business."

free health care and other services sponsored by a government who has chosen to ally with business in forms through labor is far from communism.socialism like the nazi party isnt even like what u speak of.

reply to post by givemeliberty or beer


You might as well become socialist as soon as something happens like Katrina everyone rushes to the government for help and is angry if they don't get it. Americans aren't smart enough to see the difference between socialism and communism so it scares them but they are already at a degree of socialism.

Americans have the whole self-entitlement thing going on and then there are the ones who have theirs so screw the rest. The country needs to grow up and stop pretending to follow noble ideals of 300 years ago that are based on the failed Roman empire.

Originally posted by LittlePinky82

Originally posted by givemeliberty or beer
reply to post by andy1033

 

Looks like you're correct, nothing we can do about it. I do believe that if the government tries something really radical, you will see a taxpayer revolt.

LOL. I'd love you to say all that # to the people of Latin America who have gone through all this before. You know what direction they're going to now? Socialism. So centuries after capitalist like what we've had these last eight years the people finally had enough and are rising up to take care of themselves. If you want more of the same of the last eight years that'll be #.

Do you really think socialism has worked for Venezuela? Lets review. Under H. Chaves nearly all of the Western corporations and investors have been driven out, or are in the process of leaving. The wealthy have pretty much left the country. Since the state took over the telecom industry, phone and internet work a couple hours a week- at best, the nation's most popular tv channel is off the air, there are rolling blackouts throughout the country, and the people are starving, as inflation has made even basic foodstuffs too expensive for most. What a socialist utopia!

reply to post by CVTman


I read through the fair tax site, and its pretty interesting. Do away with income tax, the IRS, paperwork and complexity. Institute a 23-30% sales tax that everyone would pay, as the only source of tax income. Supposedly, everyone pays their fair share.

They make a good point about markets at a average citizens level. You wouldn't want to go across the border to buy your milk and eggs, as everyday products would still cost about the same, even with the sales tax, since your paying about the same as now with the income tax system, you keep more of your paycheck, and just spend more at the counter. However this only applies at the average citizens level.

The CEO buying a 10-million dollar yacht would never buy one from America. You seriously expect him to pay 2.5 million in taxes on one purchase? In this era of globalization the average CEO or politician has access to markets average people don't even know about. And with no paperwork or IRS oversight to keep track of them, they would get away with it. They would buy their yachts for 10 million in another country, and sail it over to the U.S.

This system more effectively taxes the common man, yet uniquely benefits those in control, with broader market access. I think a flat income tax would be far more effective on taxing everybody, including the rich and elite, as with a flat income tax you still have to do paperwork and have oversight.

reply to post by peskyhumans


Fine, you can have your socialism if it allows you to think you are keeping a lid on the rich. How foolish are you? Duh!!! We've got billionaire CEO's running rampant NOW!!! But go ahead with your little ideas that somehow you can personally control how they spend there money by not supporting the Fair Tax. Lets say just for a second that you are right; A billionaire decides he is going to screw us ALL by avoiding consumption tax on buying a yacht. He gets on his private jet (that he also bought overseas, and his pilot flies him to, say Greece, where the yacht has just been boxed-up, and put on the shelf at the yacht store. Hmmm...wait a minute. He just paid sales tax on the Limo that drove him to the airport before he even gets on the plane. Oh, and what? Sales tax on the fuel for the limo too. Not to mention that there is Sales tax on the fuel for the plane, and also there was sales tax on the materials used when he constructed his private hanger at the airport. Or, failing that, he pays sales tax on the rent he pays at the airport to keep his plane. Sales tax is also paid on the services he contracts to maintain his private jet. Airport fees? Sales tax.

Okay, so probably after paying several hundred thousand dollars in Sales tax on the things that allow that billionaire to even leave the country in the first place he heads to Greece. But let's say for a second that he avoids most of those taxes by purchasing a "Coach" ticket on Delta, and only pays maybe $50.00 in Sales Tax on that ticket to escape the tax and screw us all. Let's say he does that and steps off the plane in Greece, and takes a cab to the Yacht store. (I mean if he is cheap enough to fly coach, he is sure not going to spend money on a limo, even when the Fair Tax no longer applies to him on foreign soil.)

Yep, so, he walks into the Yacht store and the door-greeter says, "Can I help you?"

"I want a Yacht" he says.

30 minutes later, he writes a check for $40,000,000.00, and denies the United States Federal Government about 9.2 million dollars in revenue. He gets on the yacht, sails home, and parks his new Yacht in the harbor conveniently nestled up behind his mansion.

When he gets home, there is a message on his answering machine. It's his buddy, who owns a boatyard down the street. His buddy says, "why'd you spend all that money and time going to Greece, when you could have just bought a Yacht from me FOR THE SAME PRICE?"

You see, the world is not a vacuum. When the Fair Tax is enacted, the embedded taxes will disappear out of our products. These taxes account for about 23% of the purchase prices of everything we produce and buy today. The Fair Tax will eliminate those taxes, and add them back in on the tail end. NOTHING CHANGES! The Gov't gets the same amount of revenue. You pay the same amount of tax. The price of everything remains the same. The Yacht in Greece still costs forty million, and the yacht produced in America still costs 40 million. YES the stupid billionaire can AVOID THE FAIR TAX by going to Greece. BUT WHY? He still pays 40 million over there, just as he will pay 40 million over here.

reply to post by givemeliberty or beer


First all, the national healthcare is not going to be like national healthcare in other countries. It is going to be an option, especially for businesses, small businesses, who can't afford private, can get government. It is supplemental to those companies who cost us staggering amounts of money for sub standard care. This way you get the best of both worlds, choice. You can choose private or you can choose public. That is not socialism.


This is extremely helpful to small companies, who can't compete with the bigger companies because they cannot offer healthcare.

I'm getting flashbacks here.....

You should start a discussion with Frankidealist35 'cause i'm not gonna start another 17 page thread on the same subject....

I want socialism.

You don't seem to want it and he does....should make for an interesting conversation.

Peace

Our representative republic ended with "social security", any with eyes can see how that worked.
The government still steals this money from your every paycheck and spends it decades in the future.
Any that wish for socialized medical, well, I hope that you are worth more than the average citizen, have no bad habits, are mostly young and otherwise healthy, get nothing chronic, and can survive for a long time on a list for anything even remotely complicated.
I hope you only need medications on the short list of "approved therapies", get a doctor that still isn't in training before leaving for a better paying job in another country, and pray that he doesn't operate on the wrong part leaving you disabled with no recourse.
Best of all, I hope you are wealthy and live near the southern border so you can seek the treatment you really need as the wealthy Canadians have done for decades.
You may wish the total control socialism provides----like some Scandinavian countries where you are sheltered from "germ to worm", your life and occupation mapped out for you from earliest primary school, and you forever follow the path chosen by committee from before you could even formulate the slightest idea of where you would wish your life to go.

Your choice, and if you want such, move to a country that provides it, if they will even let you in.
MY country is not going that way if there is anything I have a say in preventing it.

Originally posted by CVTman
reply to post by peskyhumans

 

Fine, you can have your socialism if it allows you to think you are keeping a lid on the rich. How foolish are you? Duh!!! We've got billionaire CEO's running rampant NOW!!! But go ahead with your little ideas that somehow you can personally control how they spend there money by not supporting the Fair Tax. Lets say just for a second that you are right; A billionaire decides he is going to screw us ALL by avoiding consumption tax on buying a yacht. He gets on his private jet (that he also bought overseas, and his pilot flies him to, say Greece, where the yacht has just been boxed-up, and put on the shelf at the yacht store. Hmmm...wait a minute. He just paid sales tax on the Limo that drove him to the airport before he even gets on the plane. Oh, and what? Sales tax on the fuel for the limo too. Not to mention that there is Sales tax on the fuel for the plane, and also there was sales tax on the materials used when he constructed his private hanger at the airport. Or, failing that, he pays sales tax on the rent he pays at the airport to keep his plane. Sales tax is also paid on the services he contracts to maintain his private jet. Airport fees? Sales tax.

Okay, so probably after paying several hundred thousand dollars in Sales tax on the things that allow that billionaire to even leave the country in the first place he heads to Greece. But let's say for a second that he avoids most of those taxes by purchasing a "Coach" ticket on Delta, and only pays maybe $50.00 in Sales Tax on that ticket to escape the tax and screw us all. Let's say he does that and steps off the plane in Greece, and takes a cab to the Yacht store. (I mean if he is cheap enough to fly coach, he is sure not going to spend money on a limo, even when the Fair Tax no longer applies to him on foreign soil.)

Yep, so, he walks into the Yacht store and the door-greeter says, "Can I help you?"

"I want a Yacht" he says.

30 minutes later, he writes a check for $40,000,000.00, and denies the United States Federal Government about 9.2 million dollars in revenue. He gets on the yacht, sails home, and parks his new Yacht in the harbor conveniently nestled up behind his mansion.

When he gets home, there is a message on his answering machine. It's his buddy, who owns a boatyard down the street. His buddy says, "why'd you spend all that money and time going to Greece, when you could have just bought a Yacht from me FOR THE SAME PRICE?"

You see, the world is not a vacuum. When the Fair Tax is enacted, the embedded taxes will disappear out of our products. These taxes account for about 23% of the purchase prices of everything we produce and buy today. The Fair Tax will eliminate those taxes, and add them back in on the tail end. NOTHING CHANGES! The Gov't gets the same amount of revenue. You pay the same amount of tax. The price of everything remains the same. The Yacht in Greece still costs forty million, and the yacht produced in America still costs 40 million. YES the stupid billionaire can AVOID THE FAIR TAX by going to Greece. BUT WHY? He still pays 40 million over there, just as he will pay 40 million over here.

How about the rich guy just buys plane ticket to Greece for under $1000? I imagine he could also buy his private jet and limo in Canada. They have jets and limos over there, don't they? I think its ridiculous you're reaching this far to support this "fair tax". A flat tax on income would actually work, as he would be paying his share before he had a chance to go someplace else and evade the sales tax. Its simpler, more efficient.