Why can't we just take a stand against those we don't want to have nukes?

The greatest threat to the continuation of life on Earth is America.

America has interfered in other countries politics for at least a hundred years, assassinating people, arming rebels, blackmailing countries into doing what the US wants.

America has gone along with the Bush Doctrine of attacking other countries, and done this on the basis of lies in order to steal oil and opium, and prop up the dollar.

America has made plans to create false flag events, (see the Nothwoods Report,) and created these all around the world.

America has even killed over 3000 of her own people to create an excuse to invade other countries.

America has wrecked Iraqi society and left the country coated in depleted uranium dust, knowing that just one particle of that can slowly kill.

For some time America has been wanting to attack Iran, with even Hillary Clinton refusing to rule out the use of nuclear weapons in doing so.

America has accidentally dropped/ditched nukes. Luckily they did not explode, but the plutonium will contaminate the environment forever.

America has even lost a nuclear missile!


So by the OP's logic it should be fine to incinerate America and turn it to a slab of glass to prevent this.

I for one would rather die than allow my country to take part in that. Most of the citizens of any country are innocent, having no clue what their government and unelected centres of power are doing.

We each have a duty to research and to work to influence our own country to do what is right, and many ATS members from America are doing just that. However even the ones who cling to their ignorance do not deserve to die to make the world a safer place, not if they are American, and not if they are Iranians, Iraqis or North Koreans.

Wow, so many people to respond to.

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl13
why do so many people think America should be trusted with this power. This country has actually used atomic bombs against another nation. Forget all the hypothetical they might they might not nuke us, this country has actually pressed the button.

That ended a World War, and saved American lives. Do we use them to get our way in the world? No. Having nuclear weapons merely keeps nations who have nukes form using them against us. In the case of Iran, should they obtain nukes, I don't believe that they directly would use them on US soil. I do think they would use them against Israel, or sell/give them to terrorist organizations that would use them against the US or US interest/allies.

Nuclear power, besides the obvious safety concerns, is a viable and practical source of energy. There are countries all over the world that can barely feed their citizens, and its selfish to say that they shouldnt have the same resources as us. The building of a nuclear bomb is not as simple as some may believe, there is a huge difference between nuclear power plants and nuclear weapons. For Iran specifically, even if they started developing nukes now it would take at least ten years, and they would have to get a launching system from another country or take the time to develop one themselves.

Nations who have trouble feeding their citizens shouldn't be wasting money trying to develop nuclear tech. I don't believe it would take as long for Iran to develop nuclear weaponry. If they receive parts or supplies from other nations, i.e. N.Korea, Syria, etc. They have been hard at work developing launch systems that have the capabilities of reaching Europe and Israel. It wouldn't take much to make them nuclear capable.

By the way if you still truly believe that the U.S. invaded Iraq because of human rights or anything similar, then you are mistaken. There were plenty of parts in Africa where genocide was occuring and the U.S. sat back and did nothing. That invasion was about establishing a puppet government, pure and simple.

I don't think I made any argument about Human Rights being a cause for invasion in Iraq. I agree, there were and are far worse humanitarian crises in the world that the US could avail themselves to if they wanted to play Good Cop.

As for the U.N. being mismanaged and corrupt; maybe they are, but surely not as mismanaged and corrupt as this nation has been. I mean, really, how can you call them corrupt in one breath and defend this nations record in the next?

I disagree. I think the UN is more corrupt than the US and many other nations. The US is not corrupt on everything. I have yet to see any branch of the UN that hasn't been plagued with corruption.

Originally posted by nj2day
Trade agreements, diplomatic support for our war of terror, and nuclear proliferation agreements aren't progress? pretty much a declared state of neutrality on the United States stance against North Korea? Loans to our government to support our disgusting overspending habit?

And the result: American jobs lost, toxic toys and food brought into the US and other nations, technology stolen, and more ownership of the US than the people of the US have. What good has come from this pseudo-alliance?

Whoa, thats some heavy opinion... Did you forget that the CIA assisted in placing Saddam's political party in power? Or that our government paid him to assasinate the previous leader of Iraq? Perhaps the U.N. said "screw you, you made the mess, now fix it yourself".

I don't think I supported that in my initial or any subsequent posts. The first gulf war ended and the UN never enforced the terms of the end of that conflict.

The U.N is tenfold more successful than the league of nations. Just because their decisions don't match what our country wants to do 100% of the time does not make them a failure... The U.N. is in place to protect the world from countries like us.

What peace has the UN brought about in the last 50 years? What country has been protected by the UN? You can read about rape by UN troops almost regularly. Wasted funds, the most recent being $23 million for spit-wad art on the ceiling of a new building.

Originally posted by Kailassa
America has interfered in other countries politics for at least a hundred years, assassinating people, arming rebels, blackmailing countries into doing what the US wants.

It has. I don't agree with those actions.

America has gone along with the Bush Doctrine of attacking other countries, and done this on the basis of lies in order to steal oil and opium, and prop up the dollar.

Um.. where is our oil, opium and improved dollar then? You cannot prove that the evidence presented on WMD materials was a lie.

America has accidentally dropped/ditched nukes. Luckily they did not explode, but the plutonium will contaminate the environment forever.

America has even lost a nuclear missile!

I am only aware of 11 bombs being lost, unrecoverable. Basically, if we can't get them, no one else is likely able to. I have not seen anything on a lost missile. I have heard of lost missile components though.


What I wanted from people, is a discussion on how the US should best handle nations, specifically Iran (but other considerations welcome,) when it comes to their obtainment of nuclear material/weaponry. Any thoughts on that?

Like it or not, the US has a very poor standing in the international community with just this type of agressive tactics fuelling the anger, sure its not a reflection on the community within more a reflection of some just plain dangerous foreign policy. It is not one countries job to police the world especially when said country has many flaws itself. By the OP's reckoning the rest of the world could take that stance with the US, surely you cant believe all the recent use of nuclear warheads have been made from sound decisions. Although when it comes to the larger Nuclear weapons that are meant by the OP sure there should be some regulations, but to wipe out a society because they dont conform is just plain ridiculous and invites similar treatment in response. Really its always going to be the never ending viscious circle that we call life. I dont know what the answer is (short of superman throwing all nukes into the sun), but one thing i am sure of is that the USA is not the answer.

Originally posted by pazcat
but to wipe out a society because they dont conform is just plain ridiculous and invites similar treatment in response.

My conceptual quote was meant to suggest two things. First, that if they did acquire nukes, we would either by nuclear or other missile based means, attack and destroy their military assets as well as government facilities. No need to send in ground forces or rebuilding forces. Second, if other nations knew exactly what we would do, they would have a greater interest in insuring Iran would not develop nukes. It would get them involved and put some responsibility on them if it comes to an attack.

[edit on 20-11-2008 by Wolf321]

I mean i do get your point, i really do, but from an outsider point of view im left thinking why? It is awful and arrogant foreign policy. Especially if said country has not even made and act of war. I believe its that kind of thinking that will push the world ever closer to the brink of destruction. And again from an outsiders view both Iran and the US are just making the same extremist statements, the only difference is one has the ability to back it up. You have raised a very interesting debate one im afraid there is not an easy answer too. I guess my stance is clear as some others posted before, it is not America's job to police the world. But the world we live in today maybe doesnt afford us such luxury's.

reply to post by Kailassa


Funny, I thought it was a number of European governments that started it and still commit to what you call crimes against humanity. I can almost guarantee that things will still occur on multiple sides.

Are we forgetting the Stalin USSR?
Nazi Germany?
The Taliban?
Iran?
Saddam's Iraq?
Imperial Britain?
Modern China?
Armenian Genocide?
Cambodia?
Rwanda?
Darfur?
The list goes on and on.

reply to post by Kailassa

America has accidentally dropped/ditched nukes. Luckily they did not explode, but the plutonium will contaminate the environment forever.

America has even lost a nuclear missile!

And how many former Soviet nukes are still missing and likely on the black market?

Originally posted by nj2day
The United States has absolutely no authority to impose tyrannical rule over the entire globe. Although we try...

What gives us the power to say who can and who can't have nuclear weapons? Do we get this ability because we have nuclear weapons?

Doesn't that mean that other countries should be entitled to impose their will on us because they have nuclear weapons as well?

Children shouldn't play with knifes, and countries shouldn't play with nuclear weapons. Someone has to stop the little ones from stabbing themselves, or someone else.

Knifes shouldn't be around children any more than nuclear weapons should be around children. The one who has already stabbed themselves (or someone else [Japan]) already knows this.

You know what gives the us the right?

Because the U.S has been there. The U.S. is like a recovering meth addict speaking to a newbie and telling them to quit. These other countries - and people like you - are the newbies naively saying "What gives you the right to tell me to stop?!"...

Only an idiot would flip a coin: heads they get nuclear power, tails they get nuclear weapons.

This reminds me of the parent child relationship. Any any resemblance. I think yes, but in this case, America is no role model nor in any position to act like a parent, when it behaves inappriorately given the fact there is an Nuclear bomb under their carpet. America is not the parent. America is not the saviour. America does represent the whole planet. America does not behave appropriately as it's supposed too, so less judging and learn to look at your own backyard first. It's called growing up. This thread is a perfect example of yet alot American's need to snap out of their inferiority complex.

It's the highest degree of hypocrisy, this thread is. I hope the thread poster, learns a valuable lesson today.


The father is the man of the house, he has the power, authority and control. The kids should be kids and not let make decisions. Natural, the kid needs to grow. The kid then grows up to be an adult, he/she want's own authorty their place in the world. An adult want's to be responsible for him or herself. Who has the right to impose this from them? The Parent, will come to terms with their child growin up, and knows they are adults and have to make thier own decisions. What you see now, is not one parent and one child. What you see is two grown adults.

America as a country. Needs to grow up and have respect for itself.It pleads certain wants or questions to the world. If they want other countries to give up something, then America should give up something of their own. If America judges the world, then the World shall judge America.

America is very unbalanced, even still after 8 years. I'm sick and tired of these ignorant threads to be quite honest. Will people ever learn to be aware of what's happening with themselves, rather than focusing on other's all the time. The American media is just utter poison to the American people.


Shouldn't America learn to respect its self, and learn to respect other nation's. The only day America has any given right to say or judge to another country - to give up their weapons etc -, If then, America gives up their own also. It's called balancing the weighing scale. Can't ask other's give up their needs and desires, if while you keep yours. It doesn't work like that.


SIMPLE as that. Now, I'm saying this to certain people here, Grow up hypocrites.


[edit on 20-11-2008 by mind is the universe]

Originally posted by logician magician

Originally posted by nj2day
The United States has absolutely no authority to impose tyrannical rule over the entire globe. Although we try...

What gives us the power to say who can and who can't have nuclear weapons? Do we get this ability because we have nuclear weapons?

Doesn't that mean that other countries should be entitled to impose their will on us because they have nuclear weapons as well?

Children shouldn't play with knifes, and countries shouldn't play with nuclear weapons. Someone has to stop the little ones from stabbing themselves, or someone else.

Knifes shouldn't be around children any more than nuclear weapons should be around children. The one who has already stabbed themselves (or someone else [Japan]) already knows this.

You know what gives the us the right?

Because the U.S has been there. The U.S. is like a recovering meth addict speaking to a newbie and telling them to quit. These other countries - and people like you - are the newbies naively saying "What gives you the right to tell me to stop?!"...

Only an idiot would flip a coin: heads they get nuclear power, tails they get nuclear weapons.

But the funny thing is, if you want to put it your way.


It's a big spoilt child tellin other children to stop playing with knives.

When the big spoilt brat has a knive set in the kitchen.......................


Explain to me about the "been there" I don't get what your specifically saying, can you elaborate more on this. It's rather a significant thing to say, yet you haven't explained your reasoning behind it.

Why can't humanity just grow up to the point there is no need for weapons of ANY kind....FIGHTING of ANY kind!

Why can't we just all have a few acres and grow our OWN food for ourselves etc?????

We need to be released from being governed and take back our friggin reality.

this world is a rediculous, immature pathetic joke at this time.

I am soooooooo sick of it all!

Part of me is starting to think mabey it would be okay if 1/3 of the population....(all the controll freaks, bullies, murderers, chaters, liers, slanderers, thiefs etc) WOULD just dissapear.

I spent years trying to help people and love them better, but enough is enough! They have hqad enough time to grow up and stop opressing the rest of us.

They need to wake up and get a life.