Ponderings/questions about Life after death

Originally posted by Ghost147

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

that said, in fairness to you would you please expand further on the things you said previously?

[edit on 19-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

what do you need clarification on?

Well There was nothing I needed clarification on. I was just wondering if youd be willing to expand on the points you have made already. I asked you that because I had the impression that You thought that I was ignoring your posts. I didnt want you to think I didnt care. Because I do.

That said, lets take this quote from you for example The question from me was, Is death an inevitabilty?

you said "Its called inevitability. Good and bad aren't a element in this world capable of choice. Good and Bad are opinions based off of a human mind. I personally have had friends murdered in front of me, family commit suicide, or something as simple as failing on a math test. Yes, they are tragic. but you cannot change what has happened. However! you can in fact learn from it. and as sick as this sounds, i wouldn't have it any other way. Why? how is it at all possible to think this way? because i dont think so negatively. because i take every event as a learning possibility. Sure i morn and feel, but why should that stop me from living my life? Taking everything as a possibility to further your own being is beautiful.

The happiest person in the world can still have the worst of all things happen to them and still feel happy. Yet even the most depressive people can have everything that anyone could ever want and still be un-happy. How? because of perspectives and opinion.

Good and bad. Joy and rage. Good guys and bad guys are all based on perspective and opinion. "

Lots of people if given the chance would turn back time and stop those murders and suicides from happening. I am given the impression that you wouldnt do that with the ones who have died in front of you.

You call it a learning experience but in all honesty having never seen someone killed im not sure what there is to learn from seeing it. Perhaps humility? Thankfulness for your own life and blessings thereof?

would you expand on what there is to learn from death, or more specificly what you learned?

I have read your posts and you have great insight. I just felt you deserved more attention then you were recieving and I was trying to give you your moment in the sun, so to say.

So yes would you be willingto expand on the above?





[edit on 20-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

reply to post by LoftyElim


Hey I have to say I agree with you as far as the lyrics being some what prophetic.

I would interject to say, perhaps it was not re-incarnation, but just simply taking the life forward naturally.

This is why Jesus dieing was so epic and why he talked about the "outside". He knew he had no heir. "Father why have you forsaken me?"

He was scattered to the wind and this was the load he had to bear. He knew that if you die without an heir, "in my fathers house (the living God) are many mansions (people), I go to prepare a place for you..." "therefore a man must leave his father and mother and cling inside of the woman of him, and the two become one flesh"....a baby. It has been this way since the beginning of the world.

A thousand years(spirit) is as a day(flesh) and a day(flesh) is as a thousand years(spirit)...

How long has the spirit of your family been carried forward. If you were the last in your family, do you realize your blood generates no more life having no heir?

The judgment is Gehenna. People are mislead in this as it is not hell, but Genesis...Generations.

In the bible people were "gathered unto there people". People mourned for 30 days....to seal it neurologically...the memory which is all of the good usually of the decreased person, drawn by the iron of the blood to the memory of those mourning. This is the wonder, the memory is in the blood. Memory is a magnet of sorts. It draws information from the Ionosphere in static charge. Yet we build the memory slots for a certain fit neurologically, by habits. If we think good things we are building slots fitted for good things.
If we don't remember loved ones or have no one to remember us...we are scattered to the wind.

I too have been "lost" not aware of what happens after physical death, and you may not realize that this "missing" knowledge is somewhat a void
that needs to be filled.

I learned alot and can tell you a great deal, but I'll give you something better, a link to a website that will answer all your questions better than I could ever, and provide scientific proof for which in itself golden.
www.victorzammit.com...

like one great soul said "We are not humans who sometimes have a spiritrual experience, We are Spirits having a human experience"

Good and Evil

So much has been made of this concept of Good and Evil. Why does God allow Evil to exist, Satan is the source of evil, etc. This is making a simple matter very complicated.

First, let me say that in nature, there is no “good” and there is no “evil”. These are constructs of the human mind trying to explain man’s instinctual nature. Humans still retain all the basic instincts provided for survival as a species. We have the instinct for fight or flight, we instinctively search out a mate, females have the maternal instinct. All of these we view as good.

We also have other instincts that are viewed by society as evil to degrees, for instance, the leader of the pack, or alpha instinct versus the follower instinct. The family group has an Alpha and a pecking order of authority. This same instinct is present in just about everything we do, all day long, think about it. The social order of any civilization is built upon the pecking order instinct present in all social animals. It is also reflected in or economics, capitalism is “dog eat dog”. Corporations gobbling up other corporations, etc. And then there is war that is nothing more than the holographic projection of man’s natural instinct for dominance (Alpha) and tribal or pack defense (survival of the pack). God and Satan, or whatever label one wishes, have nothing to do with it.

We humans love to consider ourselves “outside” of nature, or above it, but everything we do is nothing more or less than that that can be observed in nature, just to a larger and more technological degree.

What was once accepted and considered “good” in some civilizations is now considered “evil” by our “evolved” sense of society. It was once acceptable to kill an offspring if it was deformed, or if it would present a burden on the survival of those older and healthier, today, that concept is considered evil, even though we can observe this very behavior in animals all the time.

If you think about it, there is a multitude of “evils” today that were “good” in times past. So, to say that God “lets” evil exist, or that a supreme being “created” evil to counter or confuse us mere human mortals, is to place blame. There is no blame because it is nothing more or less than nature itself. If Satan is responsible for evil, then nature is Satan. If God is responsible for good, then nature is God.

Controlling those instincts that might offend or threaten the tranquility of the pack is what civilization does. The more advanced the civilization the more conflict there is between instinctive action the good of the “pack”. Deviance from the pack rules becomes evil and compliance becomes good. This is simply a matter of cooperation of the individuals for the well being of the pack.

This is why, in my opinion, there will never be a “utopia”, or anarchy that succeeds because there will never be a time that all humans can overcome the basic instincts of nature. It is a beautiful dream with a very boring outcome. Civilizations have always tried to provide an outlet for the more threatening instincts of man. The Romans had the coliseum and gladiators and we have football, hockey, soccer, basketball and politics. When that fails, we can always have a war.

Some of this may seem off topic, but so much of what we expect in a “life after death” experience is based on “good” versus “evil” that I felt an examination of what these concepts really are was in order.

It is the individual’s journey through life that presents the opportunity for overcoming the natural instincts and allowing the “mind” to achieve a higher state of existence. This is the struggle that leads to the evolution of the soul, or ascent to a higher state of being (not necessarily in this material plane).



[edit on 21-11-2008 by Hopup Dave]

reply to post by Hopup Dave

continuation of post above:

You can easily pick out the “souls” around you that are making progress in their spiritual evolution, and you can find those who have a long way to go. Is there re-incarnation? I believe it makes sense. It is the process of spiritual evolution. How many times one must repeat life in a mortal body depends on the energy expended to achieve a higher state of mind. The individual’s progress is the determining factor in whether or not that individual reincarnates and is not a free choice, nor is it directed by some other being. It is the “spiritual nature” that drives the need.

The gazelle probably considers the lion as evil. The gazelle certainly avoids the lion. If God were to rid the world of “evil”, he would be ridding the world of life itself.

Freewill simply means you have a choice in whether you do “good” by society or you do “evil” by society.

Anyway, that is how I view it.

reply to post by Hopup Dave


Yeah, and we'll continue to do "good" and punish "evil", as society so deems it, as long as we continue to enjoy our hobbies, studies, and our comfortable existence. Those are all things we strive for, all things we passionately desire. So we can't have that unless we have a subjective system of measuring what is harmful (evil) or what is beneficial (good). Just because good and evil is intrinsically irrelevant, doesn't mean it's we should ignore those definitions. You are free to make such abstractions, but then once doing so you lose the license to apply those theories onto humanity in a practical sense. Even though what you say is "true", it is beyond the scope of our limited physical existence. It's good to keep in mind; it makes you a better person. But under no circumstances should we apply these greater "truths". I'm not saying you suggest that, I'm just saying there's no reason to be depressed about it.

I live my life as a human, subject to all the psychological irrationalities of those around me; I tend to do things to others that make them happy because it provides a positive neurological response. Sure, it's all irrelevant. But I don't care, because I'm just flesh and bones. I'm not even me, really.


[edit on 21-11-2008 by cognoscente]

I was just thinking about something else.

as you all know, the debate of creationism and evolution is a very strong one.

Well, I wonder if its not possible that some how the way things work is a combonation of both.

In other words, if we were created perhaps we were created with the ability to evolve.

But is there really a way to know for sure how it is?

Does the universe evolve? Can it evolve?

Is god capable of evolving? or is god perect and unable to evolve? If so how can god, which is widley believed by many people to be able to do anything not be able to evolve?

[edit on 22-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


I read a book awhile back called " many lives many masters" I think that was the name at least. It was very good and covered this stuff pretty well.

reply to post by cognoscente


Ta dow....I like what you've said.

I've studied the bible most of my life. First part I preached as a Christian, in this second edition, I'm learning as Christ.

Don't jump to any crazy conclusions you all just yet. I did just say, learning as Christ.

Some things I never understood, but believed blindly. They never made any sense, but as a Christian perhaps I just couldn't possibly comprehend...anyway I didn't need to....God would explain it all. I didn't need to know details...God would never let bad details go by unchecked...not for the Christians he wouldn't...Still I never understood things like...God Killing, God allowing Evil, God being Omni present, even God being perfect. Made no sense, yet as a Christian, I would of died with those "Truths" then have someone challenge Jesus or God.

I was so righteous, you could see it reflect off of me from mountain tops and light the whole world....I was so Glorious....Ah So Loved of God...in the perfect blood of Jesus.....RECORD SCRATCH...that is till I was thrown to the earth and the real God I never knew before, spoke.

I've heard his voice though there are not enough words to describe it. I've seen a glimpse of his face, but I can not behold it for very long...It is to powerful. I've felt his Love and burned in his wrath.

God has answered all of my super tough questions. I would like to share them. The last thing he has taught me, that is dire to people knowing him is the word "True". I thought, if God is true then he is verifiable. True has no error. Some thing is either verified (True) or not (Untrue).

If God is true, I thought then I can see him....Nothing is different since the beginning of the world. If God is Just then I will know justice.....eye for and eye....wait.

If you take an eye and I take an eye....that's both eyes which means....God is the God of all. The living are Gods and the Gods or Of God are living"...

Q.
God, why do you allow evil?
A.
That it is fully canceled in the body, my image...that is dirt and red clay Adumah. Evil is death and is the only evil there ever was. Live and Evil those are the only two states before, now and forever. I said "be fruitful and multiply" and told my body to heal itself, so it did momentarily...when every one does right...you will see my upgrade building material...Not dirt but Light....molten light...Just wait.

I am with every last soul. What evil is there not being done to me? Show me the evil you yourself don't commit against me...who is your very life and for your sake, I shall cut the world off now in flames.

.....Forgive us, we don't know what we do father, we have done wrong, we are as children lost looking for our parent. Please help our unbelieving hearts. In the power of your sons name "Self existent is Salvation"...God with us.

Q.
God why do you kill?

A.
My immune system does that. When I have a sickness, my body cast's out those things which are hurting it. I made you in my exact image, mankind, all mine...the image of me.

I made each cell in your body a duplicate of mine. I am the body, that you are a cell of. Some times cells have random defects...attitudes really and want to not be cool with the others...I even named the cell that starts the problems the same name as it's counter part Cain. That counter part is Cancer.

You don't think about how many cells die just with loud music alone? It took me generations of building to make you, thought one picture to me, a seperate life to you...Enjoy it...."Ye are Gods"

Q.
Last one God. How can you be everywhere at all times and Know everything and be perfect if you "know evil"?

A.
I am everywhere my image is. Look around, say hi to me when i pass you on the street. I am living as you are living. Say hi to me, pull the phones out of your ears and the ipods and the radio's and just say hi. I'm around you everyday everywhere you go. I look really old, or really in a hury or really tired, or really late to work, but I will always make time for a friendly hello. If you really want to know if it's me....wink....you'll know.

I am perfect because I am writing to you from the end of Judgment yet you are hearing my voice in the beginning. I am perfect, because I am the sick, I am the dying, I am the humble, but I am the Greedy and I am the Killer and I am the diseased. I am pleased, having known all...men and actions, having been the life they would not see equal in everyone.

I judge all, being all

No one cast a stone. The words I wrote into rock on the mountain, is the very sand I wrote in before the whore and her captors. I scribed the commandments in the dirt. Not one could full fill, because only ALL could full fill. All of the Sons of Men, cancel out sin by all dying. It was brought in by man, it leaves by man but the spirit still remain....forever.

Blind Faith....the ultimate weapon in leading people into a ditch...the kind you bury people in.

Real Faith produces. It is the size of Semen...being the smallest of all the seeds of the field, blooms into humanity.

You loved catching tadpoles for a reason...LOL Peace

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


I think your misinterpreting my implications. What i was trying to get at is that the people that died taught me so much that i didn't realize until they died unfortunately. I did not wish for them to die and I am not so selfish to have thanked a magical being that it wasn't me that was taking it was someone else. The worst thing is that you don't reflect upon the dead's lessons and teachings until they are in fact dead.

i think that was the main thing you wanted me to continue on with so ill end my post there. by all means question again.

Originally posted by Ghost147
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

I think your misinterpreting my implications. What i was trying to get at is that the people that died taught me so much that i didn't realize until they died unfortunately. I did not wish for them to die and I am not so selfish to have thanked a magical being that it wasn't me that was taking it was someone else. The worst thing is that you don't reflect upon the dead's lessons and teachings until they are in fact dead.

i think that was the main thing you wanted me to continue on with so ill end my post there. by all means question again.

Thanks, I want to say though I didnt mean to come across as saying that you some how wanted or wished for them to die. I can tell that for the most part you are a selfless person. I hope I didnt give anyone the idea that you are anything but caring. If that is so i want to clear that up right now.

That is not how I meant it to sound. I just wanted to hear more about it.

Thank you for being patient enough to explain it to me further by the way.

That said, here is a question, it may be personal so I dont expect you to answer if you arent comfortable answering it.

Would you be willing to share what you have learned from the deaths of your loved ones? Wait that doesnt sound quite right.

umm let me see if I can ask that in a different way.

Could you share what each person has taught you in their life or in their death?

have any lessons been learned by you about anything after the death of a loved one?

Does that make sense? I can tell you that I had no idea how much I loved my grandma untill she died. I wish I had spent more time with her when she was living. She really was a great person. So I guess one could say that I learned that I should visit and be with my loved ones more.

So what have you learned?

[edit on 22-11-2008 by gimme_some_truth]

Unfortunately i cant explain. You cant teach someone the entirety of what you learned from the death of someone close to you because they will never be able to fully comprehend the effects of that person or their death. so, sorry, but i cant explain.

Originally posted by Ghost147
Unfortunately i cant explain. You cant teach someone the entirety of what you learned from the death of someone close to you because they will never be able to fully comprehend the effects of that person or their death. so, sorry, but i cant explain.

Yeah I guess that is true. I didnt think of that. Thank you though for listening and being willing to do what you could. It means alot to me and to all of ATS.

please, dont be sorry. There is no need to be sorry.

you have made a great contribution to this thread.

If there is any thing about anything that you would like to add, or if you want to ask some questions for others to contemplate, please feel free.

I friended you, by the way.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Re LIFE AFTER DEATH. Kindly search joe jussac, jr. or tjoaginsing at google, or better, at www.scribd.com. There, a Muslim, u can read my understanding of DEATH and beyond. Enjoy. Click, there, the WHEN SATAN et al RULE..... and feel free to email me everyone. No FOUL statements pls.
Peace, and thanks.

Great question to the guy who started it. I am religious but I am recently starting to find things wrong with Christianity for which I've been taught as opposed to what God's word says in the bible. Example: I learned that Sunday Mass is not the correct day and goes against one of the ten commandments that commands to observe all weekly and annual sabbaths (day of worship). God ended his creation on the 7th day, which is actually Saturday but Christians (Catholics) changed this to Sunday when they were trying to convert gentiles, who worshiped their Sun god on Sunday's. They wouldn't give up the worship, so Catholics changed the day to Sunday, in order to "convert" them. That's just one of many different things.

Now to stay on topic, there is one more I found and can answer your question in a religious belief...

In the bible, it clearly states that to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord. The fiery hell that man has imagined (does not describe hell like this in the bible. Hell in hebrew means shal and shal in greek means grave. Scripture has said Jesus was in hell for 3 days before he was resurrected). Heaven (Kingdom of God) is a place where NO MAN can enter until AFTER Judgement Day (proven by word from Jesus stating this, and clarification from Paul, describing that David was still in hell [grave], even though he was aprophet). So, when one dies, he does not go to "hell" (fiery hell) or heaven (Kingdom of God). When you die, you simply "wait" until Judgement Day, when ALL life from creation to end, will be judged. On Judgement Day, everyone that has ever existed will be resurrected in a spiritual form, not physical as the physical body is dead. From there, if your name is in the book of life, you live in eternity in the Kingdom of God. If your name IS NOT there, your soul will be destroyed and, as Atheist believe, you will cease to exist into nothingness.

It's clear as day but at some point, man has made up this fiery hell and the chance to go to heaven right after death but the idea of that is refusing the promise of a Judgement Day. How can you go to heaven or "hell" if when you die, Judgement Day has not happened? Plus, if to be absent from the body it so be present with the Lord, then how does this work??

Easy answer to this is for those who have experienced surgeory and even some dreams but I'll use surgeory. When you go under and are out cold, it feels almost instantly that you are awake and the surgeory is over- right?? This is exactly what happens to you when you die. If a man died a 1000 years ago and today the world ends and it's Judgement Day, it would feel the same exact length of time as to someone who died yesterday when that person would awake today for Judgement Day.

Hope that helps in the real religious believe from the bible as it's the only one to make sense while keeping the word of God intact... but then again, there's always a possibility that this is wrong as no one knows for sure, without faith.

Originally posted by tommylabelt
I am religious but I am recently starting to find things wrong with Christianity for which I've been taught as opposed to what God's word says in the bible.

Great now you know their is a difference between the real Christians vs the Christian religion beliefs. Your still a Christian if you follow the bible. Just remember its about what the bible says other than what the preachers says or the religion says. But it sounds like you got a Jehovah witness as a friend. Which is not bad they have alot of right beliefs. Just remember its about God's word. The bible.

Nice to have a new Christian addition to the ATS and BTS.

God bless

The real question is, “Is there death after life?” to which my reply is of course not. For the best part of 32 years I have been in contact with people who are ‘dead’, both through intermediaries and direct. The list of contacts includes many relatives, my spirit guide, a famous scientist and many others.

I have always demanded proof of who I was in contact with, and if adequate proof could not be provided, then I refused to accept the credibility of the contact. I do not intend to go into detail here about the ‘hows’, 'whys’ and ‘wherefores’ of my various contacts, for these are only relevant to me and I do not seek to persuade anyone of the truth of ‘Life After Death’. It is not something I ‘believe in’, but something I know to be true from personal experience and proof.

What I will say is that I know of a book that clearly sets out how the afterlife and reincarnation works should anyone be sufficiently interested to pursue the subject. The book is in no way related to any religion, it is modestly priced, and I must say that I have no financial or other interest in the book or the organisation selling it.

A Course in Spiritual Philosophy by Madam Amanda Valiant can be obtained from:

www.sphere8.com...

Originally posted by Tallsorts

The real question is, “Is there death after life?” to which my reply is of course not.

Isnt that more or less a tomato/tomoto type of thing? In other words just a different way to say the same thing? I mean I see what your saying but It seems like more or less the same thing I am saying, just worded different

For the best part of 32 years I have been in contact with people who are ‘dead’, both through intermediaries and direct. The list of contacts includes many relatives, my spirit guide, a famous scientist and many others.

Now thats interesting. I have had a visit from my grandmother once.

I have always demanded proof of who I was in contact with, and if adequate proof could not be provided, then I refused to accept the credibility of the contact. I do not intend to go into detail here about the ‘hows’, 'whys’ and ‘wherefores’ of my various contacts, for these are only relevant to me and I do not seek to persuade anyone of the truth of ‘Life After Death’. It is not something I ‘believe in’, but something I know to be true from personal experience and proof.

Now That is something I didnt do. I probably should have asked for proof but It just felt like it was her. I truly believe it was her and no one else.

What I will say is that I know of a book that clearly sets out how the afterlife and reincarnation works should anyone be sufficiently interested to pursue the subject. The book is in no way related to any religion, it is modestly priced, and I must say that I have no financial or other interest in the book or the organisation selling it.

I will check it out. It sounds intruiging. It really does

[edit on 21-1-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Now thats interesting. I have had a visit from my grandmother once.
I probably should have asked for proof but It just felt like it was her. I truly believe it was her and no one else.

I’m sure that it is your Grandmother, as only you would know that feeling between you and her. But, I’d like to give you an example of the sort of questions I used to ask, so that I could receive the appropriate evidence. Over the years each piece of evidence is like a pearl, and you collect them together and in time you will have a pearl necklace of proof, metaphorically speaking.

Some years ago while I was at work a colleague who was a gifted medium came up to my office and said that he had my uncle with him and wanted to give me a message. I asked him which uncle he meant, and he said that he was being shown a river, because he had lived by a river.

I told him that I’d had two uncles living by the river, so which one did he mean? He replied that he had a front garden which was perfection to look at. So, I then asked him if he had any roses in his garden, and he replied that he did. I then asked how many roses he had, and the reply was one.

I finally asked him what shape was the flower bed in which the rose bush was standing, and he said that it was in the shape of a star. How do you spell his first name, I asked? A_L_I_C_K, came the reply. Most people spell the name as Alec, but I understand that Alick is the Old English spelling.

At the time I’d had two uncles near the River Thames, in two different towns. One, named Bob, was alive and lived in a 4th floor flat (apartment) with no garden, but he did have a vegetable plot a mile away by the riverside. The other, named Alick, had passed over and used to live in a house with an immaculate front garden, and as befits an old soldier, the lawn, edges and flower beds were geometrically perfect, with a star shaped bed in the middle where the rose grew.

He then went on to give me a very personal message which I have kept confidential, as it is only relevant to me. I later became great friends with the medium, but at the time he knew nothing about my life and family outside of work.

That was one of a number of occasions in my life when I have received contact with the afterlife which has been of such quality as to prove to me that it is only our current body that dies, but the real ‘we’ lives on.

Not every contact has had that level of detail, but over the years you get the feel of who you are dealing with and don’t have the need to seek that detailed of proof anymore. You just get on with it and get the full benefits from the contact. You soon know if you’re dealing with a dark entity, as they have a horrible feeling about them, but the light souls radiate warmth and love. I know with whom I am communicating now, and they are just a very small and special group of people.

Ok so the last few posts of this thread have gravitated to the subject of being visited by loved ones after they have died.

So that has made me think. Are there some people who are able to communicate with the dead better than others?

I dont mean psychics neccasarily. I just mean is there some type of requirements that people must meet in order to be able to communicate?

Does our mind have to be open atleast a minumum level or can even teh most die hard non believer be visited.

Also It seems that if loved ones who had died could visit us it seems to me like there would be more instances of that. I mean there are alot of cases of people saying that a loved one visited them, but it seems like More dead people would want to visit there family, let them know they are ok and not to worry about them or feel bad.

Because it isnt all that common place it begs the question that I asked at the beggining of this post. Is there some sort of block or restriction that prevents some people from recieving visits from their loved ones?

Are they getting them but not accepting them as such?

Whats going on there?