Why does ATS shut down drug conversations, but not those about suicide bombers?

Maybe there should be a section where these discussions are allowed, after-all they use personal use stories in AA right?

Umm... ATS is not a drug treatment program. I really don't see where the AA comparison comes in.

I really don't get why this is such a sore point for people. It's one topic among thousands. The difference is that is causes major headaches for the folks who own this site – they risk getting censored, and I don't know if there's any legal risk.

I imagine that it might be possible for them to be subpoenaed for the IP address of a personal-use thread, which would really suck for everyone.

So sign up for RATS, and make a thread about the anti-hemp conspiracy, and let the OP monitor it for signs of deterioration. Prove that ATSers can be trusted on this. But don't hold your breath for the policy to change before the law does – after all, if there weren't laws against it, there wouldn't be an ATS policy about it

As for RATS costing points – what else are you going to use them for? There are only so many color changes you can put your mini-profile through before that becomes boring.

If you don't have the points, sign up for Twitter, subscribe to the ATS feed, and u2u asala for your 5000 points.

Or better yet, write an article or make a picture for TinWiki and let William_One_Sac know – he's very generous with the points.

You'd have to check this with him first, but it might even be possible to have a TinWiki article on the conspiracy to keep us all in cotton jeans.

reply to post by americandingbat


Yeh it's one topic that saturates our entire lives..

our entire lives revolve around drugs, you drink coffee, soda, alcohol?

get a headache.. boil some tree bark turned into take some aspirin...

It's stupid to deny ignorance oh. . except when it comes to "law" .. sorry that couldn't be ignorant at all..

I'm not saying we should all be doing drugs.. even though we all are.. and have television commercials for it CONSTANTLY!

I think the problem is.. We aren't allowed to talk about *SOME* drugs.. or rather *ANY* drug use.. but I bet they'd let taking 3-4 Tylenol slide by or they'd let the many accusations that I've seen one this website that the OP is on Crystal Meth, some excellent advertising for it I'd have to admit... ya'know don't think of blue.

Try to be a bit more logical with me when you respond because it would only benefit and enrich our lives if we were able to truly contribute our hearts and souls to each other without the barrier of a law that we aren't even breaking.

I've convinced some of the most hardcore drug users to stop taking drugs thru listening to their stories and showing them how things could be much better..... Maybe it's time to truly deny ignorance regardless of associates and partners and set the shining example that there isn't a topic under the sun that won't see the light of day, because maybe that person truly needs some much needed help that one of the esteemed members are capable of supplying, sure this isn't a therapy website, but I'm sure LOTS of people have reached some profound understanding of themselves thru this website.

Try to be a bit more logical with me when you respond because it would only benefit and enrich our lives if we were able to truly contribute our hearts and souls to each other without the barrier of a law that we aren't even breaking.

Would you mind telling me where I've been illogical in your opinion so I have a better chance to engage in discussion with you and abide by your guidelines?

I know that hundreds of thousands of alcoholics and addicts have shared their experience, strength, and hope in order to solve their common problem and help others to relieve their addictions.

I'm one of them.

Was there a particular problem with the suggestion to start up a thread discussing this conspiracy in the RATS forum, self-moderate it, and show the ATS administrators that it could be done?

Do you not see the problems that personal use discussions cause to ATS as a whole and the administrators in particular?

One thing about logic and fairness: it's like geometry.

You can talk all you want in the abstract, but it's never quite perfect in its application. It's just the nature of the beast.

Are plants with mind-expanding potential unfairly discriminated against by a society that allows use of alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, and pharmaceutics? Yes, absolutely.

But not by ATS, who didn't have much say in making those laws.

There are other places on the internet where you can talk about the conspiracy to keep us reliant on the cotton industry – it's one conspiracy that's really not hard to find like-minded people about. If it's the only conspiracy/alternative subject you're interested in, you should probably join one of those sites instead. Nothing says that you can't visit multiple conspiracy sites.

The owners of ATS have made their position on this topic clear many many times. This is at least the twentieth thread specifically addressing why we can't talk about it on the open boards that I've seen, and I haven't even been here half a year. What's the use?

reply to post by americandingbat

Are plants with mind-expanding potential unfairly discriminated against by a society that allows use of alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, and pharmaceutics? Yes, absolutely.

But not by ATS, who didn't have much say in making those laws.

So fine, ATS didn't have much say in making laws you acknowledge are unfair. But the whole basis for ATS is to challenge society/ government/ regulators; etc. to face up to the reality that is out there - be it UfO's, government conspiracies or whatever. Why should this issue be any different.
Here we have laws that are unfair; laws that are based on misinformation; laws that cause a lot of people to be punished in a way that is outrageously more severe than the alleged crime. Why is this subject so taboo?
Marijuana is not crack, or smack or like any other hard drug. There is a difference; yet we have our hands tied by the admins of this site to either acknowledge or work thru that understanding.
I know there are a lot of people who would veer off into unwanted territory; however there are means, as discussed above to deal with them.
I can't believe ATS would compromise their "mission" so to speak, just to avoid sensors and thus maintain "numbers" of users and so please advertisers. Or is there something more to this bias?
Now this is a conspiracy.

Originally posted by wayno
I can't believe ATS would compromise their "mission" so to speak, just to avoid sensors and thus maintain "numbers" of users and so please advertisers. Or is there something more to this bias?
Now this is a conspiracy.

That's not how I read it at all.

They are refusing to allow discussion of one conspiracy so that their mission of discussion of all other conspiracies can continue and can reach as many people as possible.

And yes, part of that is keeping the value of advertising space on ATS at a rate that will support the cost of running the site.

More important is making sure that ATS is reachable from offices and schools, so that the members (and moderators) can have access, and to provide the greatest effectiveness for the Google search optimization that's been done.

There's not much point in making sure that threads here end up at the top of a search if no one can read them.

__________________

All of this is threatened when discussions turn to members' personal involvement in illegal activity.

And what I've seen mods and admins say over and over again is that threads about the conspiracy aspect of the topic always end up turning to discussions of personal use.

My impression is that it used to be allowed (or at least not forbidden) back when ATS was just a hobby, but once the board grew to a certain size it no longer worked.

For the people who run the board, there are headaches caused by discussing illegal activity just because that activity is illegal – it has nothing to do with whether or not the law is right.

The ATS policy doesn't mean that the 3 Amigos agree with the drug laws of the U.S., which is what people seem to assume. It just means that they find the cost (financial and other) associated with allowing discussion of drugs to be higher than any possible benefit.

____________________________

It's funny that AA was mentioned earlier in this thread, because I keep being reminded of one of AA's traditions (which happens also to be an ATS tradition). As AA puts it: "A.A. is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor opposes any causes."

The reason that they put that tradition into effect in AA is that earlier sobriety movements had directly affiliated themselves with political drives to outlaw alcohol, and had fallen apart because of that politicization.

In early AA, many members felt that bringing back prohibition should be part of the AA cause – that they were doing less to combat alcoholism if they stayed out of that battle.

Luckily, some people were wise enough to see that the battle to get alcoholics sober one at a time was plenty big, and there were other places and other organizations that could fight for prohibition.

I don't know what exactly it is about prohibition laws that turns them into a distraction from the primary purpose of a group, but there seems to be something. And just like AA had to give up the idea of fighting to illegalize alcohol (and now, very few AAs believe it should be illegal), ATS has had to accept that discussing the legalization of hemp ends up as a distraction from maintaining the site as a place for discussing everything else.

reply to post by americandingbat


So the ends justify the means? Like Bush & Co have told you, losing some rights is not a problem cuz now you are safe.
This sounds like the MSM business model to me. Homogenize, pasteurize and filter the news so as not to offend the mudane masses.
Why don't you just admit, however ATS might have started, it is now a (big?) business, and the profit margin is the bottom line.
I should think that if there are bots out there preventing some people from accessing ATS, the solution is not to sanitize ATS but deal with the bots. If I worked at such an institution I would be screaming to get rid of the bots.
I will in future not look upon this site with such innocence and naivete, but understand it is not so far from the mainstream as the admins would have us believe. Perhaps it is under the thumb of the PTB as well.

I have had soooooo many of my Cannabis threads moved to RATS that they should rename it (Really Against Tone's Science)


But seriously though....

I have tried repeatedly to help educate people on the misconceptions of cannabis and the outright lunacy of the laws regarding it.

But even in my quest for enlightenment I have "slipped" up a couple times in term of personal references. The problem being is that it is hard to describe to people the effects and societal conditions without some sort of experience.. and since almost none of us here are actual scientists the ONLY factual data many of us have is personal experiences (either personal use or witnessing of others).


The fact that we can talk about hypothetical terrorist plots( even people coming up with hypothetical possibilities for future events) on this site but not a plant that HAS NEVER CAUSED A SINGLE DEATH IN ALL OF HISTORY... is , to me, beyond absurd!



I know the reasons why ATS does what it does with regards to the drug topics here at ATS.... but it doesnt mean I have to like it....
so much so that I have given up on trying to educate the masses... screw it let em rot in their own ignorance.... Let big pharma make Marinol(the ONLY fatality even remotely linked to pot) and you people can have your ignorcake and eat it too....


I love ATS... but this is one topic that I firmly have disagreed with for years now... BUT... I will continue to respectfully challenge it at every turn... because how can ATS deny ignorance when it promotes it..... '


Nopt for anything but there are TONS of 911 threads under close scrutiny... so why not the Drug related threads.... just delete and ban offending posts and posters....why is that so tough? when you guys do it for the other topics all the time? If you guys need to do so, then just get a couple special MODS for a DRUG RESEARCH SECTION......and keep it under close scrutiny. This topic is TOO BIG to continue to sweep under the carpet... IMO.


I have spent countless hours and weeks doing research for this site on this topic only to have it placed away where NO ONE reads it! it gets a tad bit frustrating..


Thanks for your time,


Tone

ATS has a significant portion of members who are minors - drug threads may or may not influence them. It is something the owners do not want on their conscience.

A few years ago, a disturbing amount of suicide discussions occurred in chat - which shocked the very fabric of our community. One of the owners, who I will not name, was considerably concerned after a member confessed to jumping out a window (days after the discussion). A mature member, openly discussed and gave methods on how to commit suicide to younger members.

She was rightly banned.

reply to post by infinite



Suicide may not be the best example here......but I see what you were trying to imply.

But the point I think many are missing here; that I am trying to make is: this topic does not get the same deserved moderation that it should... it is merely swept under the carpet...

I am NOT saying make a drug section so people can talk about getting "messed up"....

I am merely requesting a more mature way of moderating the suggested section so that mature conversation and debate can take place in a properly moderated arena.

As I am sure EVERYONE can agree.... this problem here at ATS is NEVER going to go away...just like the War on Drugs will never go away.... its time for us all to stop burying our collective heads in the sand and start to address this issue head on, rather than, keep trying to hide it.....


If minors get a PROPER education about drugs... instead of this taboo BS then maybe we can get less people out there abusing these substances.. and maybe we can educate people as to a better way to address these HUGE problems in our society.


Thanks again,


Tone

[edit on 12/30/2008 by TONE23]

[edit on 12/30/2008 by TONE23]

[edit on 12/30/2008 by TONE23]

reply to post by TONE23

If minors get a PROPER education about drugs... instead of this taboo BS then maybe we can get less people out there abusing these substances.. and maybe we can educate people as to a better way to address these HUGE problems in our society.

Right on. I agree 100%. Its no different than the condom issue. The religious groups ban condoms and "sex ed" while the kids, kept ignorant, make babies. Come to think of it these guys don't like sex talk on here either.

This is a privately owned site, and I guess the squeemishness of the ones in charge will prevail over reason -- after all their might is their right.
But I agree with you.

reply to post by TONE23


I appreciate your comments and I do agree with your premise too.

Drug threads on ATS are a taboo, even though a few are very scientific and articulating. The problem occurs when members provide their own experiences as examples - it becomes stimulating for the wrong reasons.

You can argue very strongly, with justification, that ATS allows threads on Magick and Occult practices - which certain individuals think is dangerous to minors too.

However, the administration wishes not to allow drug topics and I think we have to respect that.

I think "they don't want it" and that is all there is to it. In earlier posts it was suggested that they didn't want ATS getting barred by bots. I don't understand how that would work? You apparently can list the names of all sorts of drugs and not get caught by the bots, (or at least you don't get reprimanded by mods) but the bots will pick it up if you talk about personal use? That just doesn't make sense.
Interesting to note that some of the mods on here are apparently moderating while on other jobs by the looks of it.
If only we understood the bowels of the org. Oh come to think of it, I don't want to. Far too complicated.

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by americandingbat

 

So the ends justify the means? Like Bush & Co have told you, losing some rights is not a problem cuz now you are safe.

Bush & Co have been systematically stripping my constitutionally guaranteed rights from me in real life – where I have no choice but to participate.

ATS has given me rights to post almost anything I want on their web site, using their bandwidth, with their optimization making my thoughts on whatever subject turn up on Google searches for the entire world to read. They just haven't given me the right to discuss a few topics. But they also do not interfere with my right to talk about those topics on other web sites.

The comparison is specious.

This sounds like the MSM business model to me. Homogenize, pasteurize and filter the news so as not to offend the mudane masses.

If ATS looks like the main stream media to you, stop hanging out in the news and politics forums and check out the Gray Area and Skunk Works.

Why don't you just admit, however ATS might have started, it is now a (big?) business, and the profit margin is the bottom line.

Have you read through the corporate website? Here's the info on advertising. I admit I haven't watched the video presentation for people interested in advertising, since I'm not that concerned, but it's there if you're worried about how ATS gets advertising.

Notice, by the way, that this "big" organization looks big in part because it has three locations – New York, Oklahoma, UK. But that would in reality be: New York (Buffalo – SkepticOverlord; NYC – Crakeur), Oklahoma – Springer, UK – Simon.

Yes, ATS is a business. And yes, they would like to make as much money off the site as they can without compromising their vision. They've been very clear about that.

Of course, I'm taking SkepticOverlord's and Springer's word that they are describing the site accurately in all that material. I see no reason not to – all their actions and policies are in accord with what they describe as their vision for the site and with the described structure of the organization. And if they're lying then they're opening themselves up to getting the pants sued off of them, and I think they're too smart for that.

I should think that if there are bots out there preventing some people from accessing ATS, the solution is not to sanitize ATS but deal with the bots. If I worked at such an institution I would be screaming to get rid of the bots.

Ever heard of "tilting at windmills"?

ATS has no power over other people's bots. And private companies have the right to censor their employees' internet browsing while they're at work and using work computers.

Some of those programs even provide valuable services, like screening out porn sites so that schools can provide internet access to kids.

I will in future not look upon this site with such innocence and naivete, but understand it is not so far from the mainstream as the admins would have us believe. Perhaps it is under the thumb of the PTB as well.

If this site is dangerously close to mainstream, it's our own fault. Guess who provides the content? And there is content that is outside the mainstream but not related to illegal drug use.

And yes, ATS is under the thumb of the PTB, insofar as they must abide by the laws of the countries where they're located or risk being penalized or even shut down.

And the bigger they get, the more important it is to toe the line that keeps them safe so that we can continue to point out the many ways the PTB control society.

There are activist groups for your cause; ATS is not one of them. It can't be all things to all people, so it focuses on being the one thing it always was – a bulletin board style forum for people who don't trust authority.

Originally posted by wayno
I think "they don't want it" and that is all there is to it. In earlier posts it was suggested that they didn't want ATS getting barred by bots. I don't understand how that would work? You apparently can list the names of all sorts of drugs and not get caught by the bots, (or at least you don't get reprimanded by mods) but the bots will pick it up if you talk about personal use? That just doesn't make sense.
Interesting to note that some of the mods on here are apparently moderating while on other jobs by the looks of it.
If only we understood the bowels of the org. Oh come to think of it, I don't want to. Far too complicated.

The bots can pick up numbers of references and put sites on a list. So a few references won't trip the sensors, but a lot (or a high percent) would.

It's not implausible that there are multiple reasons to keep these discussions off the public areas of the boards, either.

As for having moderators assigned to drug threads to keep extra-tight watch on them – the moderators seem to be pretty overworked as is, especially for an all-volunteer staff. Being a moderator here is not a "job" – it carries no paycheck or benefits. They do it because they care about ATS and want it to stay great.

Also, I suspect that people are especially reluctant to flag posts that stray into personal use, compared to flame posts. So moderators couldn't rely on members to report violations – they'd have to read every post carefully to make sure they caught everything. I don't think it would be practical.

As for understanding the bowels of the organization, I really don't think there's all that much to it. Read the info on this site and on the parent company site, follow the Board Business forum, and you'll figure it out pretty quickly.

[edit on 12/31/08 by americandingbat]

reply to post by americandingbat


Without a doubt, there is a lot to be admired and appreciated in the way ATS is operated.
That does not make their stance on this subject right no matter how large and wet a towel you try and throw on my opinions.
And no, my "cause" isn't "the plant".

reply to post by wayno


It's not a question of right or wrong, though.

And I'm not trying to make you or anyone else agree with their position on the matter.

It just bugs me that people ask why their position is what it is, even though they've given their reasons repeatedly. And then insinuate that there's some sort of direct corporate control being exercised behind the scenes that is hidden from the members. It gets uncomfortably close to the inane rumors circulating the web based off the old April Fools Joke that the ATS servers are registered to the CIA.

ATS (Simon Gray, Springer, and SkepticOverlord, that is) don't want drug conversations on their forum because:

1) they are worried about exposing minors to irresponsible glorification of drug abuse
2) they are worried about giving people excuses to censor their site
3) they are worried about the legal repercussions of "personal use" threads, and have not found a way to prevent personal use from intruding into threads about drugs.

There's no secret there. Maybe you don't think those are good enough reasons, but the guys who own the site do. As it happens, I agree with them, and I think probably most ATSers agree. But I can certainly see why you wouldn't agree and you're welcome to that opinion.

Where I strongly disagree is that there is some conspiracy directly involved in keeping them off, or that the owners have been anything less than forthright about the matter. Just because they don't want new threads popping up every two weeks asking what's wrong with talking about drugs here and who's controlling the boards and forcing them to keep those threads off, doesn't negate the many times the issue has been addressed.

reply to post by americandingbat


I want to thank you for the link to the advertising and "business" pages. What an eye opener. The information there, yes I watched the video, confirms that this is a business first and foremost. The view we get from the ATS site is very different from the reality behind the scenes.
Boy have we been duped and used for financial gain of the "masters".
I am more disillusioned than ever.
But clarity is a good thing.

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by americandingbat

 

I want to thank you for the link to the advertising and "business" pages. What an eye opener. The information there, yes I watched the video, confirms that this is a business first and foremost. The view we get from the ATS site is very different from the reality behind the scenes.
Boy have we been duped and used for financial gain of the "masters".
I am more disillusioned than ever.
But clarity is a good thing.

Since I took the link from where it sits on the bottom of every page of the ATS site, I don't quite understand why you think they tell us anything different that what's there.

If you want to know about ATS, go to the "About AboveTopSecret" link at the bottom of the page. It's that simple – no duping involved.

I don't mind not being exposed on my daily visits to the nitty-gritty of advertising sales – I'm glad they have someone else doing that so that I don't have to pay a fee to post here. Or I guess they could go the "Public Radio/TV" route and have periodic "membership drives"

Every so often you'd surf over to ATS and instead of a bunch of thread titles, you'd get an over-the-hill folksinger urging you to sign up now and get the free tote bag

No thanks, I'll take the banner ads as long as they stay as unobtrusive as they generally are here, and as long as SkepticOverlord keeps reacting as quickly as he has in the past to problems with popups, noisy ads, etcetera.


By the way, since you were so offended I did go ahead and watch the video ad sales pitch. I thought SO did a pretty good job selling our strong points – large member base, responsible staff, and tight guidelines about insults and profanity.

reply to post by americandingbat

I understand the need for a very large site like this to have some sort of operating revenue. That is not an issue for me.
I am not sure that is what is going on here tho. Have you ever been to another site, no matter how blatantly commercial it is, that dares to tell you to not use Ad block programs? I am sure they all would like to, but I personally have never experienced that -- just here. That plus the way ATS'ers are so blatantly represented as a commodity for "sale" or exploitation on their add video just suggests something less than innocent.
To me, the focus really is about making $$ - above and beyond just keeping things going. Does that not seem antithetical to the purpose of a site that is purportedly to expose concerns about the PTB?
I don't think you can extricate $ from the equation as just being irrelevant. There are lots of issues discussed here, and sooner or later many of them boil down to who is getting the $ and by what deceit?
Well, ATS is all about $ apparently as well, and they have not been forthright about that. In the year I have been here, I don't think I've ever had reason to pay attention to whats at the very bottom of pages. An intentional positioning of the links obviously, because its not a place many people go.
And please, no tired folk singers with giveaways. I do so hate that stuff!

reply to post by wayno


Every once in a while I'm reminded that I probably belong here more than I think I do.

I checked out all the "About ATS" links before I signed up as a member. Of course I did – I didn't want to give anything, even my IP address and the most anonymous of my email addresses to an organization without checking them out first. They could be a CIA front, or a Disney tentacle, or just about anything! I often check out the bottom of new sites that I visit – it's like reading the small print in a mail offer. That's where the truth often lurks. It's just that it usually takes more digging than it did here.

Maybe I'm just more resigned than you. So far I've been impressed at how coherent the policy here is. Yes, money is involved, and I doubt that the owners would object if they started making loads of it. But we have direct access to the owners, we are allowed to express or to question almost any idea we want (yes, drugs are the big exception here, but as I've said before they have explained that exception to my satisfaction).

If I ever start writing stuff here that I could actually be making money off myself, I might think about starting my own site. In the meantime, it's kind of nice to have a ready-made audience, along with a great archive of source material. Until then, I don't see how they're exploiting me.

this is ats's only flaw.

they let people post and link to pics of dead babys but anything drug reated gets removed...

fact is they activly force ignorrance onto their users when drug conspiricys are mentioned.... which is ironic, as drugs are probably the biggest conspiricy and the money that funds a hell of a lot more...three (unrelated)words for everyone to ponder... cotton, contra's and afganistan.