HUNTING: Is it really justifiable anymore?

I put this in fragile earth, it might belong better in another forum, move at discretion, mods.

So, I've been wanting to put these ideas together for some time. I just decided I might as well share, as they don't seem to be changing regardless of the argument I have for people.

First off, I am a meat eater.. I've been a pescaterian for around 5 years (awhile back), but since then I've eaten pretty much any meat laid out in front of me....I am still against hunting.

Let me explain where I grew up. In central PA. I grew up amongst kids who got days off school to hunt. I tried it myself a few times, and I never really felt the need to pull the trigger, which is why I suppose this thread is being started. Why do people pull that trigger?

I will present arguments that many hunters present to me and attempt to give some of my own opinion on each.

1. Population control!

- No, I truly don't believe in this unless we're talking locust or some sort of freak accident (by humans). I grew up in one of the few protected areas in my town. Believe me, we never went short of food for the thousands of deer in our area. In fact, I often see the GIANT 15-18 point buck hanging out about a hundred yards from my house.

2. You eat meat, you're no better than the person who kills it!!

-Yes, I am. I would happily be vegetarian if I was the one who had to kill the animal. We are an advanced species right? We realize we are on top of the food chain SIMPLY because of our ability to shelter ourselves. That's it. When you bring weapons in, are you really protecting or killing?

I realize there are societal options for me to eat meat. I just don't understand the mentality. What makes you want to shoot your meat when you have it so available to you via markets? And don't say its because its treated, there are other more healthier options. So might it be that you just want to kill??

3. I see this as my quiet time, to get in touch with nature...

-This one might be unfair, but I hear it. You're in touch with nature and destroying it with buckshot at the same time? Right...

If you like the woods, CAMP! You might actually find some creatures you were killing earlier might be quite close in personality to your dogs and cats at home.

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So basically, I ask, what is the mentality???

And if your only excuse is that you use all the animal, why do you have pictures of it?? Those are only for your own victory, that doesn't really exist. Why else do you post its head on your wall? Its pretty friggin barbaric, no?


** Note, if you TRULY live off ONLY the land, I will vouche for you. I understand what you're doing. You are providing, not killing for fun**


**Note, the rest of you really are just killing for fun. Its a sport that costs the life of God's creatures. I will still eat meat, because I'm not protesting, I only ask what the hell are you thinking? Do you have delusions that what you're doing is good for the environment or your family?? You're WRONG.**

So I willingly support the murders, I do. In all honesty, I am not really asking this in favor of the animals.. I'm just asking, why would you want to kill anything? The mentality is beyond me to a point where I think hunters are numb to the world.

Basically, its needed societally, not individually. Don't defend a murder just because you enjoy it.





[edit on 11/13/08 by SantaClaus]

One thing I've never really understood about hunting is the argument that's sometimes offered about how 'it's just me against him, in the wild, pitting our wits against each other'.

The reality of this is that the animal would rather be left alone than engage in some bizarre macho competition. A 'competition' that usually involves some kind of long range weapon that kills far beyond the actual reach and ability of the animal being hunted.

Where would man be without hunting? I'm not a hunter but we've gotta eat meat, it's when people go to say Africa and go on hunting trips to hunt wild animals for trophy's that gets me, but farming animals to eats is perfectly fine to me

Short answer is that it doesnt have to be justifiable.

If you dont like hunting, dont hunt. I dont think you have any right to stop others from hunting, regardless of their motives.

Some would say that eating meat without being able to kill an animal is rank hypocrisy. You just dont mind the murder, as long as you get to eat the animal and without the responsibility of being the one to end its life.

My religion actually has passages relevant to meat consumption which state that meat consumption is allowed, so long as you can look the animal in the eye when you kill it. Presumably this was to prevent frivolous killings; and so that only animals that would be used would be killed.

I strongly maintain that any animal that has been killed in a hunt MUST be utilized. Killing an animal and just leaving it there without using the produce is immoral.

Saying hunters murder… you don’t think that is a little extreme? Technically yes they kill, but it is not illegal for them to do so, do you think it should be? Why should people have to “defend” the “murder” in the first place? I’ve always thought hunting just seems like a part of some people, their predatory instinct coming out I guess, and I don’t see the harm in it.

I am an avid hunter. Some times I get trophies out of the deal sometimes I don't. Yes population control is an issue and we are the best at it. If you eat meat you are just as guilty for killing the animal as the butcher is that slaughtered the animal for you because of your inablity or weakness to do it yourself. You have no ground to critique my life style when yours is entangled in hypocritical values. The reason the animals you see in the wild are there is because of the multi billion dollar investments of hunters. How much have you done out of your pocket book to preserve wildlife. I would be willing to bet it isn't even close to that of the average hunter. Yes it is necessary and most will see why if the economy continues as is. You will starve without us an our skills. People like you are the ones that will get shot trying to raid a hunters food stash. Complain all you want or bait ire out of the hunters but we are the fittest of the species, we can survive when others can't. My last deer kill was Oct. 1st with my bow at 25 yards so last time I checked thats pobably closer to a deer or nature than most people like you who whine about hunters will ever be. Go find another group to pick on.. Oh... I hear it.. yaaa... its your WAAAAAAAMBULANCE.

P.S. I eat the meat. I also procure meat for the homeless and for friend or relatives that want it.

[edit on 13-11-2008 by LeaderOfProgress]

[edit on 13-11-2008 by LeaderOfProgress]

I kind of figured most of you would see this as a complaining thread rather than food for thought.. Which it is much more the latter

All I ask, is why kill?

And many of you responded with the same questions I answered.

Why DO YOU personally kill? I am talking person to person, WHY DO YOU HUNT?
I don't get it. Make me get it.
You are killing, no? Justify it. You cannot unless you live entirely off the land..

I can't justify it. I am guilty. But I don't find it fun to take a life.

Basically, why is it a sport?

reply to post by SantaClausHohohohows it goin' santa...this may seem off subject, but look at the advertisements attached to this thread...does anyone who's able to vacation in Cancun need to hunt...doubtful. There are some indiginous peoples here in Ak. who subsidize with hunting & I feel it's justifiable if you can't fully assimilate into the white man's world for whatever reasons...I'll write-up a comprehensive thread about that subject (Assimilation or Bust). I can't agree with the aireal hunting of wolves that's going on up here though...it's ironic. The sad thing about homosapiensapien is that justification isn't necessary simply because "might makes right". Remember emanresui? Read the 'Michael's Theory' thread by plainmike sometime soon.

Having grown up on a small ranch we always killed and butchered our own meat. Chickens and other birds are no brainers, just a pain to pluck. Pigs, sheep, goats and steers pop behind the ear and cut their throat so the meat isn't too bloody and messy when butchering. Fish, geese, ducks, doves, pheasant, quail, deer, rabbits, squirrels for variety. I would think the butchering bothers most people more that the shooting. You could buy meat at the store but there is the connection to Daisy Crockett and the frontier that does it me.

Because it is a part of your being and to deny it is to deny your basic ability to survive. By defending your position so vehemently you are showing the dependency on everyone and everything but your self. You are not self sustaining and in the event that you don't have others to help you survive, you will perish. I lose no sleep over killing animals. After all they are just animals, not people, but believe me if a person were to hinder my ability to survive, I can and will use my honed skills to eliminate them out of the equation. Besides even the military as a whole knows that the people like me are the most skilled shots and can hide and blend into nature when others can't. I can survive in the event of any catastrophe that leaves me standing on my feet. Can you say that? People with your mentality are weak.

I would bet that this question would become mute and irrelevant if all the grocery store shelves suddenly became empty and no sign of the re-stocking truck!!!!

Hunting has been a part of human nature since humans first realized that a growling stomach meant they needed to eat!!

Hunting in my state is something people here take very seriously. They would rather hunt their meat products than go buy processed meats from the store.

Oh heaven forbid someone tell a Wyoming native that their right to hunt is going to be taken away!!!!

Again, when all the prediction of total economic collapse happens and all the grocery stores are bare and no food is to be found, everyone, I do mean EVERYONE will be out there hunting to stay alive.

So with that in mind, just because there are stores with food on the shelves, doesnt mean that we should re-define hunting as murder of animals and take away everyone's basic ability to survive when and if the store shelves become empty.


Cheers!!!!

reply to post by SantaClaus


This is why there are specific hunting seasons scheduled, and areas set aside for hunting. The majority who do hunt do not hunt for sport or for the desire to just kill an animal. They hunt for a reason, and take their hunting exremely seriously.

True there are some out there that go around and kill for sport, outside of the hunting seasons and outside of the designated hunting areas..more commonly known as "poachers".

But this is why there are severe laws against poachers and they do get caught and pay a hefty price for their crime.


Cheers!!!!

All I ask, is why kill?

Ever try to eat a live animal?

Seriously, anyone who hunts responsibly only kills what they will eat, or share with others to eat and eats what they kill. Plus, deer, rabbit, squirrel, etc., are not full of hormones and crap like the meat you buy in the store...much better tasting and better for you. And if you think about it, an instant death by arrow or bullet is much more humane than what pigs and cattle go through at slaughter houses.

Hey there Santa its been awhile...


I am a hunter. For a few very good reasons.
First, when you go into the woods and spend all day waiting around for a deer to come walking by you learn a lot. You learn their habits. What they eat, where they sleep, and the routes that they travel on. This will come in handy one day for me and my family when we are no longer able to pay for food.

Second, it is the cheapest way to stockpile meat. For about $30 I can eat for several months. ($25 license, $5 worth of bullet to take out a deer)

Third, there is nothing tastier to me than a big ole hunk of venison. Around here I can't go to the store and purchase venison.

I can see your points and I respect them. I am strongly against hunting just for the sake of killing. That is a waste of nature, and quite honestly just plain evil. Trophy hunting is nothing more than a bunch of rich people with guns having the ultimate penis envy fest. People that shoot an animal and do not eat it or make good use out of it should, in my opinion, in turn be shot themselves.


Just my two cents. Glad to see you again Santa.

Hunting is good for several reasons, when hunters buy a licence, they provide funding for the states department of natural recources. They also controll the population so I have less of a likeley chance of hitting a deer, or anything for that matter, on my way to work @ 5:30 am. At least if it is shot, it is going to be eaten. HOw many hunters just shoot a animal, and let it lay there? not very many i bet. So lets keep on hunting because its good for mother nature!

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I kind of figured most of you would see this as a complaining thread rather than food for thought.. Which it is much more the latter

All I ask, is why kill?

I hunt every year, so dose my wife. We both usualy get 2 deer tags, a elk tag and if we are very lucky a moose tag, although that one is hard to come by.
Fall we hunt grouse, and other bird as well.

Why do i hunt, to fill the freezer.

1. I know i have a supply of meat for many months to come.
(from taking the shot to putting in the freezer i process all our own game.)

2. I know where my meat came from. I dont have to worry about what deadly disease it got illegal crossing the border. (no offense to anyone.. but only 1 in 10 trucks are actually checked coming in from mexico)

3. For the price of tags. $75 each, we can get around 350 pounds of meat.
Meat that is low in fat, and much healthier for you than anything cut of cow.

4. Bonding.. weither you get anything or not, its a great time to spend with family without all the distractions.. good exercise and one on one time.

5. Survival skill. Hunting while popular is dropping down over the years, fewer and fewer are doing it, most look at it as a barbaric thing to do. yet the same people will gladly run to the store and purchase steak.. someone had to kill that cow, sad part is what ever you eat, meat, vegetable or fish, it was living once.


Sure, we have a nice elk rack (6x5) on the wall and a nice mulie buck on the wall.. (24" inside to narrowest point) a moose rack, 2 bobcat hides, beaver pelt and other stuff. But thats not why i hunt.
I hunt for the Meat, I fully agree there should be 2 sets of tags, Trophy hunting and meat hunting.
Nothing ticks me off more to see people who just hunt for the horns..
I have seen Elk with horns cut off and back strap cut out and the rest left there to rott. Trophy hunters should not be allowed in my book. But at least they should be regulated. Most of the animals we have taken over the years were either cow's and does or had horns small enough not to mention.(but legal)



[edit on 13-11-2008 by severdsoul]

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I kind of figured most of you would see this as a complaining thread rather than food for thought.. Which it is much more the latter

All I ask, is why kill?

And many of you responded with the same questions I answered.

Why DO YOU personally kill? I am talking person to person, WHY DO YOU HUNT?
I don't get it. Make me get it.
You are killing, no? Justify it. You cannot unless you live entirely off the land..

I can't justify it. I am guilty. But I don't find it fun to take a life.

Basically, why is it a sport?

Look, hunting is something that predates human history. In fact, it is a trait present in every meat eating animal from which we evolved. It is something that is in you, or is not.

Personally, I am an animal lover. I have a connection with animals, one that I and many others have observed. I have raised many wild animals from infancy to maturity (squirrels, raccoons, groundhogs, just to name a few). I would definitely consider myself to be an environmentalist. That being said, I am also a hunter. I have killed every species I mentioned. It is a true dichotomy. One I would be happy to hypothesize if you wish.

However, to answer your question; You are either a hunter or you are not. It is that simple. Just like some people can paint, or cook, or solve complex mathematical theorems, some people, can hunt. In fact, we have the desire to hunt. It is an animalistic desire, one that IMO is a hold over from our evolution. That is really the best way I can explain it.

To further blow your mind, I only hunt small game and never, never eat what I hunt. Some would, and have, called this wrong. I counter this by stating that something always eats what I kill. I have never shot a bird, or squirrel, or rabbit and left it in the field and not seen it missing from where I left it the day before. Since, like you said, I don't need to eat these animals to survive, I have no problem leaving a free meal for some coyote or feral cat or what ever other scavenger happens upon my prey.

Originally posted by SantaClaus


I will present arguments that many hunters present to me and attempt to give some of my own opinion on each.

1. Population control!

- No, I truly don't believe in this unless we're talking locust or some sort of freak accident (by humans). I grew up in one of the few protected areas in my town. Believe me, we never went short of food for the thousands of deer in our area. In fact, I often see the GIANT 15-18 point buck hanging out about a hundred yards from my house.

2. You eat meat, you're no better than the person who kills it!!

-Yes, I am. I would happily be vegetarian if I was the one who had to kill the animal. We are an advanced species right? We realize we are on top of the food chain SIMPLY because of our ability to shelter ourselves. That's it. When you bring weapons in, are you really protecting or killing?

I realize there are societal options for me to eat meat. I just don't understand the mentality. What makes you want to shoot your meat when you have it so available to you via markets? And don't say its because its treated, there are other more healthier options. So might it be that you just want to kill??

3. I see this as my quiet time, to get in touch with nature...

-This one might be unfair, but I hear it. You're in touch with nature and destroying it with buckshot at the same time? Right...

If you like the woods, CAMP! You might actually find some creatures you were killing earlier might be quite close in personality to your dogs and cats at home.

.........

I was quite distressed to read your post. I hope the mods do not make the determination that this reply is a personal attack.

You discount animal population control as a reason to hunt. Are you aware that over one hundred people die every year in deer-car or deer-motorcycle wrecks? What that tells me is that the herds are not being thinned enough to compensate for human encroachment into their habitate. It indicates that we need to encourage *far more* hunting.

Then you bring up a straw-man comparison about a meat eater being no better than the individual that killed the animal. Eating meat while decrying the killing of the animal is hypocritical behavior. Nothing more.

The last straw-man issue you bring up is that hunters defend this as being their "quiet time" and "getting in touch with nature". I'm lost. Don't even know where to begin.

You're obviously educated and intelligent but I think one of two things is going on here. Either you've lost connection to your food supply ...... or you're simply "anti-gun" and slinging >SNIP< in all directions in an attempt to justify your position.

For purposes of discussion, I'm assuming that you've had a disconnect with your food supply. I would guess that you mentally connect your food supply as a product of the grocery store -- instead of realizing that the grocery stores are just warehouses for farm and factory-made consumable products. Kinda like the kids who think that milk comes from a cartoon.

Have you ever spent a day on a working farm in your life? I would suggest you spend a few months doing hard physical work on a real working farm. In our community, we raised chickens for meat and eggs. And yes, we killed them. We raised pigs and cattle for meat. And yes, we killed them. We planted corn, soybeans, cotton, beans, and other crops. We harvested deer, squirrel, rabbit, doves and quail. And yes, harvesting means killing.

I would also strongly suggest you turn off the TV. Watching the idiot box for hours on end is perhaps the worst violence you can do to your mind and body.

[Mod note -please don't circumvent the censors. Review this link, please]
















[edit on 11/13/2008 by yeahright]

The deer population is out of control in many areas. The natural predators are gone from most areas and the deer are taking over. I live in the burbs and the deer raid our neighborhoods every night. So much for my landscaping.

Deer/car accidents take many lives. I was almost struck while riding my bicycle in broad daylight. I have read reports about deer getting spooked by their own reflection and jumping through picture windows and patio doors. How would you like to have that mess in your house.

Many hunters donate venison to local families in need or can feed their own families for the better part of a year.

Hunters also help control the varmint population as well.

Originally posted by ChilledVoodoo
...They also controll the population so I have less of a likeley chance of hitting a deer, or anything for that matter, on my way to work @ 5:30 am....

Herd management is a part of our state's plan but I do not believe that it makes that big a difference with crashes. I see deer hit quite often out here despite the management.

I agree with some of the pro hunting opinions but there are many hunters who are just doing it for a 'trophy' or a reason to shot an animal. May be it is an instinct in man and it is better to shot an animal then a person.

Gotta love the folks who bait a spot for months with corn then sit in a stand 100 feet or so away and shot a deer when it makes it's daily trek to the feeding spot to eat. At least make it a bit more of a sport with some stalking or learning the trails and waiting for one in passage.