Twenty die on Russian submarine

Twenty die on Russian submarine

news.bbc.co.uk

At least 20 people have died in an incident involving the failure of a fire extinguishing system on a Russian nuclear submarine, local media report.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Again, great Russian built quality as standard...

I don't understand how twenty people could be killed yet no actual damage to the submarine caused? Gas leak maybe? Do they use CO2 systems on submarines in order to starve the fire of oxygen or is it simply a water/foam based system? Very odd incident indeed.

news.bbc.co.uk
(visit the link for the full news article)

I found a article from a few years ago but may be relevant to this due to explaining methods of fire extingushing on submarines. It seems many of the methods involve either displacing oxygen or removing it all together, which in the event of humans within the area of concern it would result in asphyxiation. Although, this newer sub may employ different techniques to combat fire hazards, but until someone digs up some info on that I will assume they were using the following technologies.

As for the human factor... The crew must know perfectly all ways to extinguish a fire in a submarine. The first is to vacuumize the compartment, then the oxygen burns away and the fire ceases. The second is to use the fire-extinguishing foam, which cuts access for oxygen into the fire zone. The third is to supply a chemical noble gas into the compartment. And, finally, the fourth is to flood the compartment with water.

www.wps.ru...

[edit on 8-11-2008 by deadline527]

www.abovetopsecret.com...

More than a coincidence?

Yet at the same time we have tourists paying 20 million dollars to let these idiots blast them into space.

I'm just glad I'm claustrophobic and will never have to worry about getting on a sub, or a space ship

A sad accident.

Apparently she was on sea trials, I'd suspect they were testing the firefighting systems and something went wrong. It sounds like a lot of the people on board were shipyard workers rather than fully-trained submariners, so human error is a strong possibility.

If she was a nuke boat on sea trials, and with that sized crew, I'd guess it was the SSBN Yuriy Dolgorukiy, seen here:



[edit on 11/8/08 by xmotex]

If you are talking about Halon, that would kill the crew who were exposed to it. Maybe the Russians are dumb enough to use it on there subs.
From the article I just read on MSNBC, 21 others on board were injured.

The questions that I have are these:

1)Will we ever really have an answer for what happened?? I doubt it as Russia always hides the truth about everything.

2) This is more important.....What nuclear sub in the Russian inventory has a crew size of 208 people????? Not a typhoon, they were so automated that they had no where near that crew size.
A new class of sub maybe???? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

The article says only 81 of the 200+ on board were sailors, the rest were shipyard workers along for the sea trials. The USN does something similar on sea trials I believe, there tend to be a bunch of civilian contractor technicians on board.

I'm speculating here, but I think the timing is close enough to warrant at least a thought towards this. It may be that the boat was the Akula II being built for India. She was delivered for sea trials about a week ago, open press reporting from both Indian and Russian sources indicate at least 80 Indian Sailors were on their way to the boat for training, etc. Lots of Indian sailors, shipyard workers and Russian crew could account for the large number of people, and that could account for the incident as well, as unknowing or untrained people are messing about with things they know nothing about.

Just a thought.

reply to post by xmotex


I agree it is very sad that they had died in such a horrible way. I can think of no more painful way to die than burning to death aside from having your head sawed off for being from a particular country or religion. I as an American citizen would like to give their families and friends my condolences...as they gave their lives in the line of duty.

Here is the newest data on the tragic accident from Russian sources:

The submarine is believed to be an Akula Class submarine - NATO reporting name (Schuka-B Russian name). The name of the submarine is indeed Nerpa, as someone has guessed earlier. It is a nuclear submarine, but the Russian Navy reports no danger of nuclear leak.

This is not to be confused with Borei class nuclear submarine which is also currently undergoing preliminary trials.


The good thing is that the submarine did not sink, and according to reports is on the surface. It is currently being evacuated, and 21 people have already beenar evacuated to a ship. The surface ship taking on evacuees is named "Admiral Tribuc".

The accident took place in the nose section of the ship. The nuclear reactors used for propulsion were not affected. Reports indicate that there was no structural damage, and that the submarine can be repaired and will likely remain operational.


lenta.ru...

[edit on 8-11-2008 by maloy]

[edit on 8-11-2008 by maloy]

reply to post by xmotex


According to preliminary reports it is not Yuriy Dolgorukiy - Borei Class submarine. I think Yuriy Dolgorukiy is still at port, but at this time I cannot find confirmation. This is like Akula class sub.


Very sad turn of events of course - especially given the still cicdly remembered Kursk tragedy. This will deal major damage to the shaky reputation of the Russian Navy.

In my opinion, the Russian Navy is in urgent need of restructuring. The recent accidents are unacceptable, and somebody from command must take blame. I think the navy must build much more focus on safety and training, and stop rushing half-baked technology into production.

The Russian submarine history shows ample evidence of using submarines that were not well tested, in order to get them into the active fleet as soon as possible. Same appears to be happening now. The experts and engineers have recently criticized the navy for starting trials on Borei protype too early, before all vital systems have been tested. While this is not the Borei submarine, it shows the general flawed procedures of the Russian navy.

Originally posted by mrwupy
Yet at the same time we have tourists paying 20 million dollars to let these idiots blast them into space.

These idiots? Are you aware that Russian manned space program is far more reliable than that of NASA, and has been for the last two decades. Russians haven't had a single fatality in their space program for decades, while NASA was blessed with Challenger and Columbia.

Don't base your opinion of reliability of Russian technology on these submarine accidents. It is not technology which is to blame. It is the operating procedures and safety measures of respectable agencies.


The Russian space agency and airforce for example have a very good safety record. The Russian navy however has a bad record, due to lax safety training and improper supervision and command structure. Alternatively the accident could have been caused by some freak accident. It is too early to make conclusions and start calling people idiots.

wow I am so not surprised that there was yet again another tragety on a russian/soviet submarine.

it's a problem with the financing to keep these boats running, problem with training and readyness, problem with their actual tech etc... the russian navy has always been a little rough around the edges.

Not surprisd their boat caught on fire again. at least it didn't expload or sink this time, Only catching on fire and having a 5th of their crew killed this time. thats an improvement in their safety record.

PS in regards to the borei. give it time. one of those will fall apart in some tragic way sooner or later too. Its the borei not the virgina. hell i'd bet that if you took a submariner from some sturgeon or permit class put him in a time machine and took him inside the new borei he would be bored and very unwowed by whats most likely inside the new borie boats.

unimpressive would be the word to describe russian subs.

[edit on 8-11-2008 by BASSPLYR]

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Not surprisd their boat caught on fire again.

Again? If you are referring to Kursk - it didn't catch fire, it suffered from a torpedo tube explosion and resulting structural damage.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Only catching on fire and having a 5th of their crew killed this time.

It wasn't the "crew" in the traditional sense. The sub was undergoing sea trials mostly with engineers, mechanics, and some military personel on board, not the full time naval crew.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
PS in regards to the borei. give it time. one of those will fall apart in some tragic way sooner or later too.

Just like another NASA space shuttle or its replacement will suffer an accident killing everyone on board sooner of later?

Are you any kind of expert to speak and speculate on safety measures of Russian submarines? Do you know about the systems on board of Borei? Please enlighten everyone how you reached your conclusion?

One can make predictions of the future based on the past only so long as the same factors and contingencies remain in place. Borei is very different from Akula, and has been designed more than a decade after Akula. Akula is a Soviet-era design, while Borei is a Russian-era design.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Its the borei not the virgina. hell i'd bet that if you took a submariner from some sturgeon or permit class put him in a time machine and took him inside the new borei he would be bored and very unwowed by whats most likely inside the new borie boats.

Damn you must be some sort of submarine engineering and technology expert. Bored and unwowed? WTF is this an XBox game or an action movie?

Who designs military submarines for the purposes of being entertaining or pretty?

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
unimpressive would be the word to describe russian subs.

I have a strong feeling that Russians are not designing military submarines in order to impress you. If fact I don't think your level of excitement is even factored into the planning stages of Russian submarine design.

[edit on 8-11-2008 by maloy]

dude don't take my word for it. research the safety record for soviet/russian subs. not too good.

and no i'm still not impressed with any of the soviet/russian subs.

Youre right maybe they should start building subs to actually try and impress americans. that would be something. quality ahead of quantity.

wait actually no. bad idea. keep building subs to impress third world nations. we should keep the edge other contires boats already have.

[edit on 8-11-2008 by BASSPLYR]

most likely its akula II class, but there is possibilty that they are evaluating older subs to see if they are fit to resume service, possibly victor III or maybu some older sierra II, I found this article:

The SSN K-534 "Nizhniy Novgorod" left the waters of the "Nerpa" ship repair facility, the Snezhnogorsk affiliate of the "Zvezdochka" shipyard. The shipyard workers of "Nerpa" brought the nuclear powered ship back to life, having restored the technical readiness and extended the service life of the vessel. The Project 945A SSN moored at "Nerpa" in 2001 after an emergency situation in the reactor compartment. The fate of the vessel was unclear for a long time. The possibility of full repair was as likely as scrapping. The design institute looked for a resolution to save the boat from scrapping and prepared project specifications to restore the technical readiness of the SSN. Only after four years after the start of the repair work was the future of the vessel finally determined in favor of continued service.

This dates may. 13. 2008

name of the shipyard could be easely confused with the name of the new boat!!!

redbannernorthernfleet.blogspot.com...

As far as blaming machinary or human error, I would go for human error since it allways turn out to be the case! I read congressional report on russian ssn dated 1998 where improved akula I has lower noise signature then los angeles flight II......According to new data on akula II its signature is same as Seawolf, sensors on russian subs are less capable but only limt/difference is spherical sonar, and again its according to them?!?! I sicerily do not think its a fault of design or construction....But careless behavior of individuals...Also to not is that russia convicted two dock workers for steealing special charcol out of the air filtretion system of ex gepard/begogorod and replacing it with regular chacol, which could have very well caused a major disaster!

I guess will have to wait to find out a bit more!

Very sad,20 people lost their lives due to whatever reason technical or human error.And now we want to debate how each countries subs look *cooler* than others...please.Lets just hope the problem is known and dealt with.

Would have to disagree with wolf241e regarding halon.

The original post says that the fire extinguishing system failed.

Two failure modes:

The first mode is that the extinguishing system didn't do its job. Hence the people died from the affects of the fire: exposure of toxic byproducts, exposure to heat, lack of oxygen.

The second mode is that the extinguishing system activated even though there was no fire. Presuming they used Halon (for room flooding 1301 was used pre-Montreal protocol) the concentration level was probably less than 10%, more than likely 5-6%. At 5-6% you can stay in the room for up to about an hour and wind up with a real nice headache.

Now post-Montreal there are several alternative agents out there, all when properly deigned allow for the agent to be release with minimal short-term affects to humans. To have people die from the second failure mode assuming short term affects the room would either be through air evacuation or release of carbon dioxide and a total room agent.