PRUFOS -´Police Report UFO Sightings´Organisation.

Good interview with Nick Redfern and Gary Heseltine from PRUFOS:

EPIC Voyages Radio Assigns Retired Police Detective Gary Heseltine to File Multiple UFO Sightings into the PRUFOs Database.

Nick Redfern jumps into the captain's chair of E.P.I.C. Voyage's mother-ship to roundup an A-list line-up of the most capable UFO field investigators recruited by former British police detective Gary Heseltine.

Part 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6

karl 12:

Police encounter UFO -England 1978.

What a credible witness this ex-policeman is. He doesn't confabulate his experience and cautions against doing so, but simply reports the facts. I live in the area where he had his experience, and funnily enough, it is around the same time period I had my UFO encounter, which I relate here...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The area this policeman had his encounter is a large expanse of desolate moorland like an offset inverted triangle with its points being the towns of Burnley and Skipton and Bradford. The area is part of the Pennine Spine that runs centrally down the centre of England for a couple of hundred miles. You do not want to get caught up there during the night in the winter months! Further north of Burnley and Skipton are the North Yorkshire moors, which are far larger and just as desolate and dangerous at night during the winter months. Even in the summer months you need to be off those hills when night falls, unless of course, you are camping and have all the right equipment.

In his interview, the ex-policeman talks about abductions and contact between aliens and humans. For the sake of argument, let us suppose that what he says is indeed true. Would it not fit the scenario if it was true?

If you are of a race of advanced technological species exploring this planet, would you not abduct one or two species for examination, not just animal, but especially of the more sentient intelligent and dominant species...man? Once you had examined samples of the human species, and having observed the level of its technology, would you not try to seek to make contact, providing you were interested enough to do so? Or, maybe, if you are one of a number of alien species exploring the planet, and having experienced difficulties with the human species, you may be forced to make contact in order to warn mankind of its actions towards those visiting the planet, some which may not have our best intentions at heart?

Contact would have to be in such a way as to not bring about a collapse of social and belief systems, so 'disclosure' would have to come from mankind's own governments, through a process of acclimatisation leading eventually to full admittance of alien presence on our planet. Those alien species who don't have our best intentions cannot reveal themselves due to the presence of other alien species, and would have to contend with them if they did. So, no advanced alien species is going to land on the White house lawn or in Trafalgar Square. For all our technology and science, we are still a primitive species holding on to anachronistic beliefs like religion and so forth. What you wouldn't want to do during your exploration of planet Earth is to bring about the dominant species collapse.

Before full disclosure could be made, our species would have to undergo a vast change in mindset and beliefs. It would have to mature to a level where disclosure could be safely made.

a reply to: elysiumfire


Elysiumfire, thanks for sharing your account mate and nice job on the thread - it's not the first time I've heard reports like yours and it certainly sounds like a freaky one. I know the general area around Burnley, Blackburn, Bacup, Todmorden etc. and it really has had its fair share of very strange UFO reports (DrHammondStoat's post on your thread here even mentions over 800 reports in Burnley and Coyne between 1993 and 1996 alone).

Also some pretty bizarre UFO testimony submitted by Police Officers to PRUFOS in that year and it really does make a person wonder WTF is going on.

0050 hours 21/10/77. Location - Bodmorgen, Anglesey. PC JOHN OWEN observed a dome shaped UFO whilst off duty at home with his wife. The object appeared to have portholes and be part of a structured aerial craft. He described the colour of the object as that of the setting sun. He made checks with RAF Valley who confirmed there were no night flights. The incident was reported to his police HQ at Colwyn Bay. Duration of sighting - 7 minutes.

UFO CLASSIFICATION – CE1 (CLOSE ENCOUNTER 1ST KIND)
Off Duty sighting. 1 Officer. Source - BUFORA Magazine Jan/Feb 1978 Volume 6 Number 5.




0030 hours. Location - Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire. An off duty uniformed police officer observed a huge cross shaped UFO above the M5 motorway at the rear of his home in Tewkesbury having just completed a 2-10 late shift at Cheltenham Police Station. He heard a swishing noise outside his home which attracted his attention. Going into the garden he saw the object slowly rotating above the quiet motorway. He described it as the size of a civil airliner and watched as it began to move across fields towards his home. It was moving at a low altitude of 50 feet above the fields and he observed that there was a red light at the centre of four cross arms. At one point the object turned on its side to reveal that it was very thin in depth when viewed side on. For reasons he doesn’t understand he rushed inside to get a torch. Once back outside he used it to flash once at it. The UFO appeared to react and moved slowly back over the motorway where it performed an extraordinary manoeuvre. He watched at one arm of the cross remained in a stationary position whilst the rest of the craft rotated around its axis. A short time later the object moved into the distance and out of site. Forms part of a series of four sightings made by the officer.

UFO CLASSIFICATION – CE1/INT (CLOSE ENCOUNTER 1ST KIND/INTERACTION)
Off Duty sighting. 1 Officer. Source - Confidential (PRUFOS) Database.




1315 hours. Prior to a 2-10 shift. Location - A38 Tewkesbury to Coombe Hill, Gloucestershire. The off duty uniformed officer was on his way to work at Cheltenham Police station driving along the A38 when he heard a ‘clanking’ noise outside. From his left he saw a three pronged UFO which appeared to have a ‘barbell’ on the end of one of its arms. The object was described as the size of a civil airliner and was moving slowly at a low altitude. The craft came to a hover above the village of Deerhurst. The barbell appendage appeared to be transparent and as he watched it his mind filled with the image of a humanoid figure. For reasons he can’t explain he flashed the car headlights at the object and the figure disappeared as did the craft. The duration of the sighting was two minutes. This forms part of a series of four sightings by the officer who is now retired from the Gloucestershire Force. Weather - dry, fine and clear.

UFO CLASSIFICATION – CE3/INT (CLOSE ENCOUNTER 3RD KIND/INTERACTION)
Off Duty sighting. 1 Officer. Source - Confidential (PRUFOS) Database.




1720 hours. Autumn. Location - Isfield near Lewes, Sussex.
Whilst waiting at bus stop a female off duty uniformed officer observed a dome shaped UFO at a low altitude of 300 feet. She described the object as having the appearance of a light or green coloured metal with a moderately reflective surface. On top of the dome protruded a blue/green light whilst underneath there was an area of intense black. For reasons she doesn’t understand she waved at the object and it passed to within 50 feet of her position. The next thing she remembers was the bus arriving and that when she tried to move her limbs felt numb. She also noticed that she had developed an acute headache. Over the next week she developed other ailments including thirst and conjunctivitis. For a time afterwards she suffered with recurring bouts of gastric problems. She cannot account for a period of 20 minutes of time whilst stood at the bus stop. She has not had any form of hypnotic regression. She was a former member of the Royal Observer Corp.

UFO CLASSIFICATION – CE1 (CLOSE ENCOUNTER 1ST KIND/SYMPTONS Off Duty sighting. 1 Officer. Source - Pat Grant (independent UFO researcher) as outlined in Beyond Top Secret by Tim Good, Pan Books 1996. Pages 78-79.




Evening. Location - Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. An off duty uniformed Gloucestershire officer observed a large UFO in the vicinity of Orchard Road and Hesters Way, Cheltenham whilst out with his then wife. He described the object as a flying cross which was the size of a jumbo jet aircraft and that it came to a stationary position above a Catholic church. The object was seen at a low altitude of 50/100 feet. On one of the four arms he observed a red light that flashed four times before disappearing from view. The weather at the time was dark, fine and clear. Forms part of a series of four sightings reported by the officer.
UFO CLASSIFICATION – CE1 (CLOSE ENCOUNTER 1ST KIND)
Off Duty sighting. 1 Officer. Source - Confidential (PRUFOS) Database.




November 1977. Location – Earlsfield, London. Inspector DESMOND CONDON reported seeing a hovering UFO over Earlsfield, south-west London at an approximate altitude of 3000 feet. He said, “It was a perfect pillar, it glowed with a bluish haze and stayed motionless for 30 minutes. I’ve never seen anything like it!”.

UFO CLASSIFICATION – NL (NOCTURNAL LIGHT)
Off Duty sighting. 1 Officer....

Off Duty Sightings / On Duty Sightings

Cheers.

originally posted by: karl 12
...Gary Heseltine, the editor of the popular UFO Monthly magazine, has taken possession of several items of unidentified debris collected by a former British soldier who claims to have witnessed a UFO fall to earth in 1973. In his detailed account, Corporal Tom Clarke, who was part of a six man British Army unit on a late night patrol recalled what happened when spotted strange lights in the sky. “We were all awoken at about 2am by a brilliant bluish dazzling bright light in the sky, what happened next is hard to explain. There was not an explosion, but we were all hit by a shockwave and fell flat to the ground. The light just disappeared or went out,” Clarke recalled. The team of dazed soldiers quickly found the crash site which was located some 200 metres down the mountain and additional military personal were called in to investigate. The soldiers were ordered to collect debris and place it into black plastic bags; Corporal Clarke managed to conceal some small pieces of golden tinted foil from amongst the wreckage – which is now in the hands of UFO Magazine.

Any word on lab testing of the above mentioned material?

originally posted by: The GUT

Any word on lab testing of the above mentioned material?

Hola Gut mate and couldn't find any info on the lab testing but there are pics of the debris at the Patrick Gross link below -could be wrong but it looks distinctly terrestrial to me.


ALLEGED UFO CRASH IN CYPRUS IN 1973


The Cypriot Troodos mountain range certain has featured in one or two strange UFO incidents though - there's an account here from David Cayton of three separate radar stations tracking a UFO travelling at 12,000mph and making right angle turns in 1958 - none other than infamous spoonbender Uri Geller also mentions that one year later (1959) he saw a disc shaped object execute a zig-zag manoeuvre which then 'shot off at a speed no human craft could ever achieve' (pinch of salt with Uri though).

Cheers!

originally posted by: karl 12
The Cypriot Troodos mountain range certain has featured in one or two strange UFO incidents though - there's an account here from David Cayton of three separate radar stations tracking a UFO travelling at 12,000mph and making right angle turns in 1958...

That sounds amazing. Will check that out now!

- none other than infamous spoonbender Uri Geller also mentions that one year later (1959) he saw a disc shaped object execute a zig-zag manoeuvre which then 'shot off at a speed no human craft could ever achieve' (pinch of salt with Uri though).

Cheers!

Having researched Uri (mostly because of his involvement with SRI, the Aviary, etc.) I'm on the fence still but leaning towards there being something that sometimes works...through(?) him. There's that "Trickster" phenomena maybe. I do believe other folk have reported seeing UAP-type phenomena when in his presence. That aspect--if there's anything to it--would bring up that area where UFOs and the seemingly paraphysical sometimes commingle.

What do you think of Jenny Randles work, btw? What other of your countrymen would you recommend? I know you generally stick to more academic/scientific material, but I only really discovered the Brits a few years ago and have been fascinated at the quality of ufologists y'all have produced compared to our paltry offerings & hucksters here with a few exceptions. 70's through the 90's seemed really exceptional. Maybe you can recommend me some good reads?

I couldn't find this one in the OP's Prufos report..
PC Probed in Todmorden

The closest i could find was this report from roughly the same year and area..

Early hours. Late 70’s or early 80’s. Location – Todmorden, West Yorkshire. Five on duty uniformed officers, which included a police sergeant and two police vehicles, attended an alarm activation at a warehouse outside the above town. As they awaited a keyholder to arrive, several of the officers observed a bright light hovering stationary above a nearby railway line. Initially the officers thought the light was from railway workers doing maintenance. However they soon realized that they could not hear any sound coming from it. The object was no more than 200 yards from their location at the time of the incident. Curious several of the officers begin to approach its location only for the UFO to rise into the sky and move away. On police vehicle set off in pursuit of the object but in vain. The incident lasted 30 minutes in duration. UFO CLASSIFICATION – CE1 (CLOSE ENCOUNTER 1ST KIND) On Duty sighting. 5 Officers. Source – PRUFOS/CONFIDENTIAL.

Maybe PC Godfrey Heard about the Todmorden sighting and kinda added his part. or maybe PC Godfrey doesn't exist. Who knows..Another Mystery for ATS to investigate. ??

originally posted by: The GUT

Having researched Uri (mostly because of his involvement with SRI, the Aviary, etc.) I'm on the fence still but leaning towards there being something that sometimes works...through(?) him. There's that "Trickster" phenomena maybe. I do believe other folk have reported seeing UAP-type phenomena when in his presence. That aspect--if there's anything to it--would bring up that area where UFOs and the seemingly paraphysical sometimes commingle.

Have actually never looked into Uri's background mate but I do know you've conducted some mighty fine deep research into the Aviary and psy op shenanigans so who on earth knows what's going on -back in the UK I think it's fair to say he hasn't got the best reputation and he does mention in this interview that he also witnessed another UFO in the Israeli desert (the bio does state though that he was living in Cyprus at the time of the sighting mentioned above).

originally posted by: The GUT

What do you think of Jenny Randles work, btw? What other of your countrymen would you recommend?

Lots of colourful characters in British UFO research and I've got a great deal of time and respect for Jenny Randles - some free Ebooks of hers here if you've not read them already but I think when it comes to one of the first UFO researchers to become a genuine pain in the ass to the British establishment then Julian J.A. Hennessey is definitely up there.

"If one accepts the above as the only "true" picture, which is how the public now sees it, then the Ministry's investigation is one of gross incompetence that endangers National security. However, my observations lead me to believe that it is not the only investigation."

link

I don't necessarily agree with his conclusions later on in life but I always had a sneaky respect for Gordon Creighton as well and this interview is a classic -would also say 'black triangle' researcher Omar Fowler deserves a mention (link), as does Mac Tonnies (link).

originally posted by: The GUT

I know you generally stick to more academic/scientific material, but I only really discovered the Brits a few years ago and have been fascinated at the quality of ufologists y'all have produced compared to our paltry offerings & hucksters here with a few exceptions.

Few exceptions indeed, think there's some truly excellent Americans involved in UFO research mate and if it was a Ryder Cup kind of affair you'd probably win.

Brad Sparks, Robert Gribble, Carl Feindt, Michael Swords, James Mcdonald, Peter Sturrock, Francis Ridge, Kenny Young, Ted Bloecher, Richard Dolan, Willy Smith, John Greenewald Junior, Grant Cameron, Richard Hall, Ronald Story, Barry Greenwood, John G. Fuller, James M. McCampbell, George Fawcett, Ted Phillips, Jerome Clarke, Loren Gross, Robert Powell, Terry Hansen, Paul Hill, Tom Tullien, Martin Shough, Daniel Ropkin, Jan Aldrich..

Cheers!

More details on British Police Constable Colin Perk's sighting on the morning of January 7th, 1966 (with report of possible physical trace evidence).

Thanks to the terms of the Freedom of Information Acts of a wide and varied body of countries (including the US, the UK, Australia, and Canada), we now have access to literally tens of thousands of pages of official files on UFOs. As with reports that reach UFO researchers, the official documents vary in degrees of quality and clarity. But, one report amongst many that – for me – really stands out concerns a man named Colin Perks, a British police constable.

Early on the morning of January 6, 1966, PC Perks had an extraordinary experience in Wilmslow, England. Such was the nature of the encounter, it became the subject of both a police file and an official, Ministry of Defence investigation. Since Perks’ report is profound in the extreme, I’m presenting it without interruption. It reads as follows:

Excerpt:


“About 4am on the 7th I was checking property at the rear of a large block of shops which are situated off the main A34 road (Alderley Road) Wilmslow. At 4.10am I was still checking property and facing the back of the shops when I heard a high pitched whine, for a moment I couldn’t place the noise as it was most unfamiliar to the normal surroundings. I turned around and saw a Greenish/Grey glow in the sky about 100 yards from me and about 35 feet up in the air.

“I stopped in my tracks and was unable to believe what I could see. However I gathered myself together after a couple of seconds and made the following observations. The object was about the length of a bus (30 feet) and estimated at being 20 feet wide. It was elliptic in shape and emanated a greenish grey glow which I can only describe as an eerie greeny colour. It appeared to be motionless of itself, that is there was no impression of rotation. The object was about 15 feet in height. The object had a flat bottom.

“At this time it was very bright and there was an East wind. Although it was cold there was no frost. No cloud formation was anywhere near ground level. The object remained stationary for about five seconds then without any change in the whine it started moving at a very fast rate in an East-South-East direction.

“It disappeared from view very quickly. When it started moving it did not appear to rotate but moved off sideways with the 30 foot length to the front and rear. It is possible the short side given as 20 feet may in fact be longer as I was looking underneath the object and may have been deceived..

UFOs, the Police, and a Secret File

Police Officer Perk's eye-witness sketch of the object:





Poss trace evidence and MOD conclusion:

On arriving at the location where PC Perks had seen the UFO, the DI61 team noted that on the morning following the incident "some glass like substance" was found on the ground below where the UFO had been seen. Whilst DI61 felt that there was not enough firm evidence in hand to make a definite connection, it is worth noting that their investigation was extremely meticulous.

Having interviewed the P.C. at length, scrutinized his report and visited the area of the sighting, DI61 stated in their final analysis of the case that while "...it is not possible to arrive at any concrete conclusion, there is no reason to doubt the fact that this constable saw something completely foreign to his previous experience."

A British Socorro?

Freaky one from Poland in 2013 involving police officers witnessing a luminous disc-shaped object ejecting 'balls of light'.

To their amazement, after a while UFO began to move in parallel with their car, staying in the constant distance of about a kilometer. Despite strong concerns and unnatural fear, Mr. M. stopped the car in the next village trying to record the object with his cell phone camera.

“The UFO was in shape of a disc, with a kind of small ‘dome’ on the top. It was emitting blinding, yellow light (occasionally turning orange). At the bottom, three smaller white-bluish ‘balls’ could be seen. In my opinion they were ‘engines’ but there were no sounds at all”

Disc-Shaped Craft 'Escorted' a Police Car in Poland

--


Hudson valley, October, 1976 - Police UFO witnessess ‘all describe exactly the same things’

OF THE NINE UFO sightings in Stony Point attested to by police officers, (Bill) Patrick said he had been on the scene of five. Each object, he said, ‘first appeared to be a star, but when I looked through a telescope, I could see red or green lights rotating.’ They were observed by seven other Stony Point police officers, he added, who ‘all described exactly the same things.’ ”

News Archive

UFO follows 2 Polish Police Officers in squad car for 2 hours:



www.mirror.co.uk...


Edit - sorry this was a repost

Gendarmes witness UFO - Belgium, 1989/1990 (sourced by 111DPKING111).

See 2:20

originally posted by: karl 12
Article examining the credibility and reliability of Police witnesses:

The Police Officer UFO Witness

Why is the police officer considered a special witness to UFOs? Why are police officers important to the investigation of UFOs?

Nowhere else in the UFO phenomenon is more attention given than to that of the UFO witness. The witness lies at the core of the phenomena, if indeed it isn’t the core itself.
In classic UFOlogy the witness is the sole source of data on the topic, providing the raw descriptions of sightings and experiences. Of all the studies and literature on the topic of UFOs, no subject dominates like reports from witnesses. Not all detailed witness reports are considered worthwhile however. More often than not the weight of the report will rest upon the credibility of the witness and the reliability of the witness to observe. Enter the police.

This section provides a review of what makes the officer such a critical observer at the core of UFO phenomenon, an introduction to the police witness/sighting saga, and touches on what progress has been made in providing a system to afford the officer-witness to come forward in order to contribute to the subject. As good a place to start as any, the witness experience provides a practical foundation on which to gradually expand.



1. THE WITNESS PROFILE

It cannot be stressed enough that police rank as amongst the highest of credible and reliable witnesses in the UFO field, in literature being compared to astronauts, pilots, and engineer-scientists. Dr J Allen Hynek, in his 1975 FBI briefing, goes so far as to suggest his belief that police are the best witnesses, when he states:

“Experience definitely shows that the best reports, those with the greatest information content, come from technically trained, professional people, especially law enforcement personnel.”

Bill Birnes, chief editor of UFO Magazine, makes the case explicitly in the television show “UFO Hunters – Cops vs UFOs”, that “Police officers are the most credible witnesses who are trained to observed.”

In terms of rating our witness sources, when we talk of the ‘police witness’ we are profiling. Like law enforcement agencies, UFOlogist have long known the importance of witness profiling, but reports, reviews and catalogues on the subject are difficult to obtain because of the security involved in protecting the witness.

However the casual assertion that police are the best UFO witnesses has become so prevalent that it has almost assumed a sense of cliché amongst the UFO research community. Questions and discussion do arise, and since the police witness is so critical to our inquiry, it seems fitting to elaborate on those two basic assumptions: That the police officer is credible, and that the police officer is a reliable observer.



2. Credibility

The public will admit the obvious authority that comes with the uniform, and also in a court of law. Many have argued that should the UFO debate ever make it to a fair court of law, the issue would have been resolved long ago. There are obviously those who do not agree that authority in itself is enough to consider the officer to be a credible witness.

What comes with the authority however, is a deep requirement for responsibility and accountability. Experienced officers have a lot to loose in coming forth with their amazing stories, or as Hynek calls, “credible people with incredible stories”, in the eye of the public, professionally and in the eyes their peers. We have mentioned earlier the culture of policing in general, and so it is not lightly that the officer makes a report. Outside of formal research, this credibility quickly comes into question. Bill Birnes, in the same UFO Hunters episode, makes the case that, "These are the people whose eyewitness testimony we trust is credible, 'except' when it comes to UFOs, and that's what's so frightening to me."

And yet their stories continue to go on record, and this in itself leads one to consider that something extraordinary is going on. What profound and very real experiences are these officers having?

And it is for this reason more than any other, one might ultimately confess, that the officer does, albeit in general, make a rather credible witness.



3.The Reliable Observer

Does the officer make a good UFO observer? The police officer is definitely a trainer observer, and many police can rightly claim also to be experienced observers, so we are half way there. But does this qualify the officer as the best observer, and more remarkably, a good observer of unusual aerial phenomena? The answer is not straightforward.

We must take into account the experience of the particular officer. For example an officer with many years of night surveillance, maybe near an airport, or perhaps even a previous history in avionics, would certainly make the case for a good UFO observer.

The public has not considered all the avenues, if it has assumed that the officer is not a special observer of unusual aerial phenomena. There is another characteristic of the officer that makes the case for a strong observer. When Hynek was referring to his list of good observers, including law enforcement personnel, the point he was making was that the experienced professional mind was most capable of articulating the observation in detail. And therefore, it is the ability and experience of the officer to reliably report the observation that makes the reliable observer.

There is, further, yet another important aspect that must be considered. If by “reliable observer” we were to interpret that the officer is in a position that is fortunate for the observation of UFO phenomena, then this too clearly suits our nocturnal police patrols, or fits the bill, one might say. It must be acknowledged that the night-shift officer on the beat is certainly at a statistical advantage for witnessing strange nocturnal happenings.

policeufo.com...

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

In my view, Police officers are no more reliable than ordinary members of the public.

Plus, the majority of Police officers only receive a small amount of training regarding the standard requirement for good witness testimony.
In other words the training received is actually pretty basic and certainly not as high as I think most people would expect.

Although. most officers have high credibility, just as in any other role in life, Police Officers can and do lie and exaggerate.
Hence, I see no real reason that they should be raised upon any witness pedestal during in relation to Ufology.

Nerveless, cool thread and thank you for your time and input in sharing these events.

a reply to: studio500

Thanks for the post mate and below is a pretty intriguing in depth interview with PC Alan Godrey which I hadn"t seen before · he goes into detail about the separately located police and civilian witnesses to a UFO in the same area (and timeframe) and also describes the harrasment (and possible frame up) he experienced from his superior officers.




Cheers.

Gary Heseltine on Coast to Coast describing specific Police UFO incidents:

Relevant article from Brent Swancer describing the very strange UFO experiences of officers Goode, McCoy, Schirmer, Amparano, Johnson etc..


Some Intense And Frightening Police Encounters With UFOs

the Wales sighting in the bristol channel was from the 1950s, an excellent sighting considering a high ranking officer witnessed it, there have been lots of ufos spotted in and over the Bristol channel over the past 70 years.reply to: karl 12

a reply to: wobbs62

Appreciate the reply mate can you post the info/link to that specific incident (too many diferent police cases to go through)?

sorry Karl , my computer skills are not up to posting link, I will look it up, also Gary has done an excellent job with the database but unfortunately he has been very busy with other work but I know he is writing a book on the database and last time I spoke to him it was 70% finished. reply to: karl 12

a reply to: karl 12
Hi karl, Gary has a report from Sept, 57 of sighting in Bristol Channel of bright red object seen by 3 on duty officers but report I saw was a bit earlier in 50s by two officers from Wales side one a chief inspector I think, seeing the same type of ufo ( fiery red object ) leave the water and shoot off to the Atlantic, will try and find it.