To All Those Members Complaining About Skeptics

Get it right will you!!!

None of you seem to have any idea about what you are going on about anymore

A scientific (or empirical) skeptic is one who questions the reliability of certain kinds of claims by subjecting them to a systematic investigation

Consider the above quote. It describes who a skeptic REALLY is perfectly. Notice the words "systematic investigation", meaning that skeptics go out to disprove a theory using different methodologies in order to prove their view point

True Skeptics do not (DO NOT)

- Go onto threads suggesting that people are on drugs or mentally ill

- Assume that they are right without investigating or researching the topic at hand

- Act like children sledging other members for having a differentiating view point

I dont know if its just assumption or anger of being challenged/ abused, but please stop putting skeptics in the same group as these members that feel the need to post immature remarks.

And also, just because people are skeptical in one topic, doesn't mean they are skeptical in another. In explanation, a skeptic will try to disprove every theory, while someone with a skeptical view point may only try to disprove one topic, instead of all of them

And to those members that think they are doing skeptics a favour, please stop it. There is nothing worse than being put in the same group as you, and it damages the credibility for the rest of us that are doing proper research.

Finally....

Stop engaging the trolls. If someone writes something derogatory or something that offends you, or someone is trying to bait you into enagaging in an immature flaming match, click the report button to alert the mods...or if you feel the need to, click the ignore button. These buttons were put there to be used. Hell, even go to BTS and talk about off topic stuff.....all these options worked for me when things got heated

Now everyone calm down, accept that there will be people that try to disprove your point, and accept that there will be people who come on to simply derail a thread (and no challenging someones point of view rationally is not derailing)

From someone with skeptical views on some things, but not others





[edit on 3/11/2008 by OzWeatherman]

I love the sceptics on ATS - it's one of the reasons I am here, because I need the balanced views. I'm an emotional person, I've read stuff on here that made my heart beat faster, and then a few posts down I read a scpetics response and the rational part of me surfaces.

But.........

I'm not an idiot and I don't appreciate the insinuation that some people make that reading and participating in certain threads make me ignorant. Just because I am reading and participating and asking questions doesn't mean I am believing, make your point, point out the fallacies but please keep your mean spirited opinions to yourself! I see to many threads derailed and ruined by certain posters who post every other post screaming how the OP is a hoaxer and if you beleive anything they write you're an idiot. Blah Blah Blah...I'm old enough to make my own mind up.

But still, I wouldn't be here if it weren't for the balanced views and they outweigh the drama.

Couldn't have put it any better myself. Obligatory S&F for you.

It seems since the GFL debacle the "battle" has stepped up another notch, like I mentioned briefly in another thread, there is never going to be a clear cut winner, the ones who realise that are going to sleep much better at night.

It's the ones who want to force everyone else into to their belief - be it skeptic, believer or whatever in between - they are the ones who seem to turn the threads into shouting matches and make people want to pull their hair out.
I think we've all been guilty of it at some stage, we are only human after all.




(eye rolling moment)
So lets just all get along and enjoy each others point of view...huh??

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
True Skeptics do not (DO NOT)

- Go onto threads suggesting that people are on drugs or mentally ill

- Assume that they are right without investigating or researching the topic at hand

- Act like children sledging other members for having a differentiating view point

WELL put Oz! I think this site NEEDS true skeptics. It cannot be a forward-moving site with only believers. But, the tactics used by a lot of the "hardcore" skeptics is very much like you describe and only serve as a starting line for the trolls and kids to start posting with a 3-year-old menality.
I see well thought out skeptical posts ruined by a phrase such as: "This is the most insert derogitory phrase I have ever seen".

Again well said, Oz.
S&F
Cuhail

Originally posted by Merigold

I'm not an idiot and I don't appreciate the insinuation that some people make that reading and participating in certain threads make me ignorant. Just because I am reading and participating and asking questions doesn't mean I am believing, make your point, point out the fallacies but please keep your mean spirited opinions to yourself!

Exactly

Thats another point I was trying to highlight. The quality of ATS plummets when we have muppets like those posting. Like you say, its great to have a constructive discussion/ debate, but there isnt any need to insult someone due to having an opposite point of view

[edit on 3/11/2008 by OzWeatherman]

Skeptics are needed in order to float the boat, as are true believers.

Skeptics remind us to be intellectually honest while true believers lead us into new and interesting venues.

I love both.

I know, sceptics has a c not a k but I like the k.

Thank you very much for posting this thread Weatherman, I could not agree with you more. I have been off of ATS for a little over a year now and I can safely say that it is the balance of believers and skeptics that has not only kept ATS alive and growing, it has also made it the best "Alternate" website out there in my opinion, and is what brought me back. Was just going to say that just because one is a, "Skeptic", does not mean, per se, that one does not believe or that one does not want to believe. A skeptical mind should still be able to be persuaded by solid evidence and rational debate.

reply to post by OzWeatherman


You have hit on a point I have been working with for quite a while. There are the 'True' skeptics that come forward with proof of their own (reliable) or simply do what many of the non-skeptics refuse to do, ask for reliable proof. That is the true skeptic. Yes, I have been baited into some arguments by the phony skeptics on this site. The ones that simply are their to try and create conflict by name calling and such.

I like this post a lot. It describes what a real skeptic is about and that their job is NOT to start a violent conflict but to discuss the topic rationally. Now, there is the other side where once challenged, they begin to berate, rant and rave. I have seen this happen and then the 'skeptic' in this case will begin to defend their initial challenge with like rhetoric. Well, we are still human after all. (At least, most of us are...ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh!)

You have to acknowledge that there is another faction of skeptics who are equally dogmatic in their establishment beliefs. These people cannot be classed as scientists or empirical scientists, because they are as bad as the ones making baseless claims.

Pointing out the inherent fallacies in a theory is fine; but claiming total academic superiority and knowledge (as Michael Shermer does) is rather against the empirical spirit of science.

I agree, skeptics were born for a reason. While I would "LOVE" for most of the stuff that is stated to happen... It doesn't, at least to me anyway. Skeptics are almost what ATS is all about... Hoax's here and there, and they need to be debunked.

Yes I want aliens to come to earth, yes I want to believe im a slave or some genetically modified monkey....

I want to believe yet all I am getting/seeing from these forums is alot of talk. I am still clueless about most things I read about....

However saying that, I also wonder why Christians (I used to be one, I still call upon the almighty and talk to him... despite), that I am reading a book which has been hugely manipulated many times in order to favor certain people...

I once was asked by an atheist, that if there was an invisible dog near me... Would I worship it, since it could be a mighty god like dog. Yes I know it sounds stupid and all, but the real factor is that this invisible dog that I cannot see, touch, smell, taste and etc ... Is just like God. This invisible dog, which is brown and pants alot, that I cannot see, feel or touch... Could be as real as God is!...

Also, another thing is how Christians can believe in an entity that creates life, and I guess overseers it all at once (Yes im pretty certain for a godlike being, such a thing would be as easy as ABC)... Yet they cannot fathom the fact that there could be other life in the universe, which seems so vast, that it could border on the unlimited, well almost. Its so vast and planets upon planets exist and we have only just seen the tip of the iceberg.

Yes Christians are funny people. I am one, yet honestly I am still amazed at their general lack of thinking in certain areas.

Where is this brown invisible dog that my senses cannot take in? Where is this god I worship who seems to busy to take my personnel requests for life? Do I need to shout? Why can some certain people get everything/whatever they desire.... Yet others get short changed and suffer (OR WORSE).

Yes its life, lifes a piece of BEEP, but hey... Who cares!

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
Pointing out the inherent fallacies in a theory is fine; but claiming total academic superiority and knowledge (as Michael Shermer does) is rather against the empirical spirit of science.

Agreed, while I am classified as a scientist, due to my field of work.....I would hate to be compared to an egotistical **** like Shermer.

He just likes to boost his ego

If our membership were composed of ladies and gentlemen of above average intelligence we would not have to have this discussion.

We are a discussion board with a broad spectrum of individuals that include the rude, unintelligent, defiant, mean spirited, and generally offensive malcontents.

Why can't a person be both a skeptic and a believer? I like to think that I am very skeptical on some issues and then a believer on others.

Being an untrusting soul I question everything. After much research and discussion I may or may not become a believer. If I find what I believe to be positive proof I am no longer the skeptic I am then a believer.

As far as the insults and rantings well............I just consider the source and move on.
P.S
I know untrusting isn't a real word but it works for me.

Another P.S
A bit of spice makes everything nice.

Personally I find this rank and file division between Skeptics, and everyone else a little ridiculous. We're all both, depending on how we relate personally to the material we have in front of us.

I find skepticism, in the form the OP has wisely stated, to be the first step towards any evidence and/or allegation. Either publicly or privately. Unfortunately, a systemic process is largely viewed in a negative fashion because it is ill-applied, or not applied at all by many who consider themselves skeptics.

Skepticism, is not a position in my mind. And should not be treated as such.

Great Post OzWeatherman

It doesn't matter how much I want to believe UFO's are intelligently controlled spacecraft belonging to species beyond our own. It doesn't matter how much I want to believe our government's technology is far more advanced than we're made to believe. It doesn't matter how badly I want to see Mars colonized or the invention of FTL travel.

I need to know. Reality to me is far more beautiful and exciting, it's amazing knowing the truth through scientific skepticism. When abstract thought and imagination are applied to science, it's even more wondrous. The mere joy I receive from realizing how tiny and young we are as a species in comparison to all that there is, was, and will be is unexplainable. The process of increasing our understanding and knowledge only makes life better and worth participating in.

The connection I feel when I ponder physics, especially astrophysics, is near spiritual. It's beyond comprehension and rationalization. You can't help but feel apart of it all if you understand that we are all star stuff.

The motto "Deny Ignorance" implies skepticism of all forms. It implies an everlasting search for truth.

Originally posted by Oscitate
I find skepticism, in the form the OP has wisely stated, to be the first step towards any evidence and/or allegation.

I actually believe that holding something in a skeptical manner until proven otherwise, only does topics such as the existence of UFO's good. The problem with some is that they are so blinded by their belief, that some facts aren't taken into account. Skepticism is actually a useful tool in determining the authenticity of some things.....providing it is used fairly of course.

I appreciate this thread!!! Thank you!!

I am a believer in a higher power, not a believer in religion.

I guess you could say that I am a realist. To be a realist you also need to be skeptical!

Make sense?

reply to post by OzWeatherman


A healthy level of skepticism is necessary. Without skeptics we'd all be going around believing fairies, trolls and unicorns are real, we'd have no ability or desire to find the truth because the first answer to emerge would immediately be accepted without skepticism. That said, I think there are some extremely closed-minded people out there who despite mountains of evidence will still scoff at some of the phenomenon we discuss here on ATS... We need people who will seek the truth without jumping to conclusions but without dismissing the conclusion hands down because it doesn't fit into their paradigm...

Oz, most people complain about debunkers not skeptics, I am skeptic in nature but I will treat any thread as something that is possibly true and I will not try to debunk their claims unless I have a 100% proof to support my counter-claims.

Most GOOD researchers are skeptical, Jim Marrs, Stanton Friedman and some others are good examples of true skeptics.

Debunkers are often mislabled skeptics as well.

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
Debunkers are often mislabled skeptics as well.

Thats the main point Im trying to make

Skeptics and debunkers are not the same

Dont forget James Randi...he has exposed a few con artists in his time

Yes, which is why I mentioned "both privately and publicly right after that sentence.