Believer vs. Skeptic, page 1

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 10:09 PM

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This thread is my opinion based solely from observations of this website.

It seems there are 3 distinctive camps here at A&U...

The Believers.. who believe..

The Skeptics.. who aren't buying it..

and those On the Fence.. who just aren't sure..

When the truth of the matter is we only have 2 camps..

The Believers.. who believe..

The Skeptics.. who just aren't sure..

Before you begin the "OMG WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT" threads, let me finish.

There seems to be a thought pattern that only Believers are the ones that believe anything around here, but from what I have seen.. the ones that some label "Skeptic" seem to have their own set of beliefs as well..

Which begs the question..

What is a Believer?

A believer, in short, is someone who believes. If you have a belief, you are a BELIEVER. A belief is solid. There isn't any room for error. This is what you know to be true, and as such, you will defend it to the bitter end.

Kind of sounds like both sides of any given argument here, doesnt it?

The Believer saying "THIS IS THE REAL DEAL!! PROOF INSIDE!!" and when you get inside everyone that isn't a believer in the thread starters world view quickly charges in with his OWN belief and rants.. if he has one.

Which is where the TRUE skeptic comes in.

The true skeptic isn't sure. He doesn't believe. It's not the same as A Believer who simply has a different world view, because the true skeptic isn't sure of that guy either.

I'm not trying to change the way we talk around here, merely trying to simplify the way you think about it.

The guy you are arguing with is probably NOT a skeptic, he probably just believes in a different set of 'The Truth' than you do.

Hope this was insightful.. actually, I hope it was coherant enough to read.. I haven't slept in a while and it's been rattling around in my head and wouldn't let me sleep until I commited it to bits and bytes.

justgeneric

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 10:16 PM

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reply to post by HankMcCoy

Pretty much sums it up for me. Hank I dunno if you remember me at all LOL but I am a bit of a fan - most "skeptics" really don't heed their own advice but you set the bar pretty high IMO. Starred and flagged

From my response to this thread here

When I first came to ATS I shared some very similar experiences and well...I dare say the "gimmee proof crowd" has gotten somewhat more belligerent and demanding.

Missing time, ending up in places not remembering how you got there, miscarriages and a "fluke" pregnancy with twins one aborted spontaneously while the other survived (and turns 20 on the 6th BTW)...there are more.

Ultimately I welcomed the additional insight from the skeptics as they were echoing my own thoughts and questions. To this day however, the explanations still do not fit as "neatly" as I require them to.

Proof goes both ways, and for me the conventional and "rational" explanations were exhausted - I researched fanatically looking for the perfect and most scietific/rational explanation(s)...some had merit to such a degree that I should have been satisfied.

Still I am not satisfied.
Still I research.
Still I look for the perfect explanation.

As someone who has experienced these things, I found that researching mental illnesses, sleep paralysis, sleep disturbances, etc etc to be more convincing that they were NOT the perfect explanations.

So what is? Was I abducted? Who the heck knows with 100% certainty?

As far as the issues of mental health are concerned.

It HAS to be considered before it can dispelled. Has anyone in your family taken psychological testing to rule it out? If not why? I took a series of tests and I can happily report that aside from Panic and Anxiety and some interesting OCD and germ issues I am clear and free of any "mental health issue" that may dilute my awareness to the here and now. Even reporting a belief in UFO's or aliens in these reports does not conclude one to be "mentally ill".

Hell I had my eyes checked, ears checked, head examined and a full physical when I was researching heavily into what I may have experienced. it's the right thing to do IMO.

I cannot say I was not abducted or visited with 100% certainty nor can I say I was, but I have at least ruled out many (MANY) of the typical physiological and psychological explanations for my experiences. And yes it is an insult of sorts to be accused of being a nut job (PC term is Psychologically unstable yes?), nobody wants to think that others think "less" of them or their capacity to grip reality. rather than get angry at the skeptics for their natural question of mental health...thank them for the input and maybe do some checking into it.

The worst that could come of researching it is you add more skill and knowledge to your belief "IN" yourself and your experiences. I am a skeptic BTW and a good one I figure.

Rule nothing out is my motto. Learn, experience and educate. In the end I lean more toward my having had experiences. For my own peace of mind I have looked at all aspects and continue to do so.

The skeptic in me demands it.

We have no idea the full capabilities of the human brain and even the full experiences of "being human" elude modern sciences. We can't rule out what we don't know THAT is a fact and truthfully there is NO PROOF that alien lifeforms 1) do not exist 2) are not visiting us.

In fact I would venture to say that there is more proof that they do and are.

Really...you are the only one who needs to feel confident and satisfied in what you believe to be true, but please don't be afraid to explore the multitudes of scientific and psychological facts and theories that "may" lead to explanations.

The worst kind of believer is one who is afraid to explore their beliefs for fear that there may be conventional/scientific/physiological or psychological explanations for what they believe to be real or true.

Likewise the same can be said of the skeptics.

Personally I think everyone should have their heads examined routinely. It's very educational.

Sorry I'm too lazy to type out the whole thing again and to remove some parts...it all applies I figger.

edit for typo

[edit on 11/2/2008 by justgeneric]

silver6ix

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 10:33 PM

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Originally posted by HankMcCoy
This thread is my opinion based solely from observations of this website.

It seems there are 3 distinctive camps here at A&U...

The Believers.. who believe..

The Skeptics.. who aren't buying it..

and those On the Fence.. who just aren't sure..

When the truth of the matter is we only have 2 camps..

The Believers.. who believe..

The Skeptics.. who just aren't sure..

Before you begin the "OMG WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT" threads, let me finish.

Didnt you miss a group? The people who willfully, knowingly and actively muddy the waters to suit their own agenda. The ones who seed disinformation, discredit and twist based to whom truth itself has little meaning.

Some people call them deniers, but im sure theres plenty of other names they could be given and im sure they arent as clandestine and clever as they imagine themselves to be. Personally I find them in the main fairly transparent and simplistic to deal with, but they do provide a great deal of amusement and you can learn so much from knowing what they dont seem to want you to know.

In all honesty I think the model would be better placed as:

Believers who made a leap or two in logic.

Believers who know 100% that something isnt right and something IS being covered up but havent decided exactly what.

Believers who can see things and know that they havent been explained and that mainstream "credible" organisations seem unwilling to explain them.

Skeptics who see but just cant accept anything outside D Cheyneys signed letter telling them its real.

Skeptics who need national TV and 80% of the population to say "this exists" before they will accept it.

Deniers who just wont accept anything.

Agents of disinformation who actively debunk and muddy as much as possible.

Personally, I find my model far more expansive and credible.

ohh and maybe Aliens who like to point out the truth to humans

Mozzy

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 10:41 PM

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are you saying that a believer, even throughout daily life and when he considers hiself in doubt, is still different from a skeptic?

i know i believe in about any damn thing that stimulates my mind. then all i have to do is bounce it off of my wife and she tells me how stupid it is.

Faiol

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 10:48 PM

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there are two groups

insanes and want to believe guys

insanes are the ones that just dont question things posted here, they just accept it as the truth

want to believe, are the guys who believe that must be something going on, sense it, but they just dont believe in every single one post, they think about it before and they cant made their minds, because there are no 100% proof of ANYTHING ... you may want to believe, but u aint sure ...

this is about posts, not about alien life ... this is about cases

theory...there are a lot out there, we can either considerer it or not ...

third group? guys who just want to create disinfo ...they may exist here

[edit on 2-11-2008 by Faiol]

TH3ON3

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 10:48 PM

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Originally posted by HankMcCoyA believer, in short, is someone who believes. If you have a belief, you are a BELIEVER. A belief is solid. There isn't any room for error. This is what you know to be true, and as such, you will defend it to the bitter end.

You presume way too much. Many believers are also scientists, and if and when evidence comes forth that could mean something different than what I believe, I would give it great thought and if proven valid change my belief based on the proven evidence.

caterpillage

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 10:49 PM

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i know i believe in about any damn thing that stimulates my mind. then all i have to do is bounce it off of my wife and she tells me how stupid it is.

LOL! My wife is about to send me to the looney bin! Glad to see I'm not alone.

[edit on 2-11-2008 by caterpillage]

justgeneric

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 10:51 PM
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LOL Mozzy - maybe you should rent out your wife to the politicians!

I think everyone of us at some point or on some level is a skeptic.

I think we ALL need to be able and willing to investigate either side of a fence before setting up camp. I just wish I could find a camp to set up in...this fence is hard on the butt. But I can see for mile and miles and miles.....

Majorion

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 11:08 PM
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Actually Hank, I consider myself in a third category.

I'm a believer, but at the same time I'm also a skeptic.

For example, I believe that et's exist and have visited Earth, probably still do. And as much as I want to believe that such a reality will be disclosed publicly by our governments... that's where I draw the line.

When it comes to disclosure.. I have read many threads on ATS with an attempt to prove that disclosure is at hand, that disclosure is gradually occuring.. that disclosure is near. However, even though I believe in the secret being hidden, I absolutely refuse to believe that this secret will ever be revealed in any of our lifetimes by our governments no matter how much evidence is presented in a particular thread.

Do you still think that I'm part of one of your two categories?

HankMcCoy

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 11:11 PM
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Originally posted by TH3ON3

Originally posted by HankMcCoyA believer, in short, is someone who believes. If you have a belief, you are a BELIEVER. A belief is solid. There isn't any room for error. This is what you know to be true, and as such, you will defend it to the bitter end.

You presume way too much. Many believers are also scientists, and if and when evidence comes forth that could mean something different than what I believe, I would give it great thought and if proven valid change my belief based on the proven evidence.

All that proves is that you and other scientists are BELIEVERS in the scientific method. Are you someone that is going to give up the Scientific Method because you see something fantastic happen in front of your eyes, or are you going to analyze it and try to figure out just what exactly happened?

HankMcCoy

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by Majorion
Actually Hank, I consider myself in a third category.

I'm a believer, but at the same time I'm also a skeptic.

For example, I believe that et's exist and have visited Earth, probably still do. And as much as I want to believe that such a reality will be disclosed publicly by our governments... that's where I draw the line.

When it comes to disclosure.. I have read many threads on ATS with an attempt to prove that disclosure is at hand, that disclosure is gradually occuring.. that disclosure is near. However, even though I believe in the secret being hidden, I absolutely refuse to believe that this secret will ever be revealed in any of our lifetimes by our governments no matter how much evidence is presented in a particular thread.

Do you still think that I'm part of one of your two categories?

Totally. You are a believer.

You BELIEVE in aliens and a vast conspiracy to keep the knowledge of their existence secret.

silver6ix

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by HankMcCoy
All that proves is that you and other scientists are BELIEVERS in the scientific method. Are you someone that is going to give up the Scientific Method because you see something fantastic happen in front of your eyes, or are you going to analyze it and try to figure out just what exactly happened?

What is the scientific method? Cover up and ignore?

Im not sure that quite fits with the scientific methodology that real scientists have. So by that rational anyone talking about scientific method and putting credence in NASA information is very much tretching their own boundaries.

There ARE phenomenon in space. NASAs answer? Hide the footage and pretend nothings happening. Now that doesnt sound like science to me, that sounds like NSA regulated garbage.

HankMcCoy

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by justgeneric
LOL Mozzy - maybe you should rent out your wife to the politicians!

I think everyone of us at some point or on some level is a skeptic.

I think we ALL need to be able and willing to investigate either side of a fence before setting up camp. I just wish I could find a camp to set up in...this fence is hard on the butt. But I can see for mile and miles and miles.....

I agree. This isn't cut and dried. Everyone flips from one side to the other depending on the issue, and in some cases depending on the thread.

If everyone was a little more skeptical of their OWN beliefs, I think it would make for a more honest world.

silver6ix

posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 11:26 PM
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What we have is information war, the last great frontier on Earth: The Internet.

I have a simple solution people should try. Believe nobody, figure things out for yourself, dont base it on any single incident, any single film, any single footage.

Even as we speak the CIA and Spooks of the world are happily uploading hoaxes and CGI footage onto youtube and various other sites and are pumping out reams of confusing facts, discrediting information and garbage. (thats right you are paying you tax dollars to wage a psyche war against yourself)

My way of thinking is simple:

Instant debunkers work for the CIA.

Debunkers who produce dodgy debunk footage every two seconds might well work for the CIA.

Any "explanatory footage" might have been CGI touched in Langley by the CIA.

If someone tell yous someone else isnt credible, they might work for the CIA.

Whats the end result? Well you realise you cant trust anyone and have to just rely on your own wits and guile to figure things through.

Dont assume any one video or any one documentary or any one conspiracy theory is absolute truth, most likely they all have elements of truth, this is the effect of compartmentalised data and willful misinformation.

However when you go through enough things, read enough, watch enough, some things can be cross verified, some things stand out as valid in many cases, some things make sense.

Overall you will at least be left with the comfortable position that you know the truth is being held from you in someway, and you wont be allowing anyone to play mind games with you in your pursuit of it.

PS it doesnt matter who does or doesnt work for the CIA, like I said, its really all about negating the side effects and making a nice clear passage of thinking for yourself. Dont let ANYONE fool you on ANYTHING becuase in this digial world, you really dont know who you are dealign with or what their motives are.

[edit on 2-11-2008 by silver6ix]

InfaRedMan

posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by HankMcCoy

The differences between the two camps are obvious.

A believer uses a large amount of faith and feelings to validate.

A skeptic requires tangible data and high probability to validate.

One is a belief system, the other is not!

IRM

anonamousantichrist

posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 03:08 AM
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I do not consider myself a believer.
Having a belief is too concrete for me personally. Beliefs can be hard/tricky to change at times. So I personally find it beneficial to avoid that word and all it implies when possible.

Does that make me a skeptic? I would like to think that avoiding one label would not automatically shove me into another.

damagedoor

posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 04:31 AM
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I agree to an extent. In our everyday lives we are all believers and skeptics about different things.

One important point is that 'skeptic' has a double-meaning here.

Firstly, there is being skeptical in general, which I think all intelligent people are. It's a lack of belief about a subject until evidence is presented and sways us one way or another. I have no belief about there being a dog in my garden right now. If my wife tells me there is, I will probably believe it. If she told me a tiger was in the garden, I may well not believe it until I open the curtains to check. And so on.

A general skeptic approaches the UFO phenomenon in such a way, whereas the term skeptic is often used on this site to denote an active disbeliever. But even believers are generally skeptical. They ask "is there evidence this photo is genuine?" and sometimes decide there isn't.

The difference is our background assumptions: the individual baggage we bring to each thread. The degree, I suppose, to which we find the idea of the tiger in our garden unlikely when we can't personally open the curtains to see.

Gaderel

posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 05:06 AM
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Its some interesting delineation, but personally, but I dont subscribe.

Everyone is a believer. Everyone is a skeptic. The only variable is the topic.

There are things in this world we take at face value and dont question, and there are things we do. I dont question the microwaves that cooked the pasta tonight, so I am a microwave believer. I question the honesty of politicians. I am a political skeptic. I believe UFO's exist, so therefore I am a UFO believer. I dont believe Ronald McDonald was ever a real clown, I am a McSkeptic.

Seriously people, stop trying to catagorize yourselves, its pointless and rhetorical. What can you possibly achieve by doing so.

Be a human, its far better than being a skeptic or a believer.

[edit on 3/11/2008 by Gaderel]

anonamousantichrist

posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by Gaderel

stop trying to catagorize yourselves

[edit on 3/11/2008 by Gaderel]

I will not speak for others in the discussion.
That said, I'm not so sure I was putting myself into any catagory. Rather, I was stating my point of view in relation to the 2 catagories presented.

cutiepie

posted on Nov, 3 2008 @ 05:17 AM
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Hank - I'm with you sceptics are believers just on something different and usually pretty opposite if looking in black and white terms to the believers.
Same thing,just people trying to reinforce thier own belief systems under whatever guises!

gaderel - totally with you on this about the catagorisation thing hehehehe,however it can be interesting to see spot the people who are genuinely open to new experiences/ideas and things or the people who are looking for evidence to support thier personal belief system whatever that maybe.

To me there are only believers who seek to validify thier belief systems and believers who are willing and open to experience anything as with little slant as possible.
everyone is sceptical about certain things as we all question stuff and rightly so!
Seems to me that a lot of the 'sceptics' are coming from a physicsal 3-D science based perception especially in regards to evidence etc. This to me says it all.