UK to cut JSF numbers!

www.timesonline.co.uk...

just found it


apparantly the UK is actually considering pulling OUT of JSF completely

if they go - then i can see most export orders going tbh - many countries are allready hosting competitions which include a value for money option.

can`t provide a link but apparantly BAE Systems has said that navalising the Typhoon isn`t quite as hard as certain parties want to make out ; the airframe is allready strong enough and changing the the undercarraige isn`t really that bad - so in theory they could do it

If they could navalize the Hawk, then the Typhoon should be a doddle and the navalized Hawk was designed and published before Boeing (MDD)teamed up on the programme.

However I would be against withdrawal from the F-35. Rightly or wrongly the RAF has stated that it wants to retain the STOVL capability it led the world in, there is no other option than the F-35 for this.

The F-35 is going to be a better tactical aircraft than the Typhoon due to its LO. The only viable alternative I can imagine is BAE's Taranis UCAV lead from a Typhoon 2 seater hanging back a bit, as the FOAS studies and current ongoing flight tests are busily validating.

If the F-35 pull out was to allow this to be fully funded then hmmmm, maybe not so bad. BUT the British habit is to pull out of a programme and then do nothing.

Where are our Jaguar GR.3's? Where are our Sea Harrier FA.2's? Still-new aircraft with cutting edge technology on board (and in the case of the Jaguar, the RAF's most versatile attack platform bar none) all consigned to the scrapheap with the promise of replacements 'eventually, maybe'.

Which brings me to my final point. The (UK) F-35 scrapped will not guarantee funding for a fully developed Taranis, nor will it prolong the life of the Harrier or Tornado and will most likely see an RAF front line equipped exclusively with Typhoons by 2022 (hey, justification for tranche 3 guys!).

The Typhoon is a marvellous aeroplane and is the first proper fighter we have built since the Lightning (the real one), but the saying 'don't put all your eggs in one basket' springs to mind.

Oh, and Lee. Please stop being embarrassing. There is so much rubbish in your posts that the grains of truth are totally overwhelmed, and they are just grains. The reason we are in the F-35 at all is because when BAE wanted to build it themselves (effectively) 15 years earlier the Govt had no intention of supporting the programme whatsoever and when we did go into JSF as very much the junior partners it was the final realisation of a prophecy printed in Flight magazine over 30 years ago, in an article about the Harrier and Britains unique world lead in V/STOL combat aircraft technology. And it makes one want to puke.

[edit on 3-11-2008 by waynos]

Originally posted by Harlequin
anything russian is a no no - would not ever happen; the Gripen would need a redesign similar to , but more extensive , than a proposed `Sea Typhoon`; The F-16 has never been used from a carrier and even though it has a hook , its designed for the emergency `cable,cable cable` call rather than the thump on a deck - whilst the cable could stop the plane , the rest of the parts wouldn`t take it kindly , undercarraige collapsing being one.

F/A-18 or Rafale-M then - and the Royal Navy have been spending quite a while over at NAS Landivisiau

[edit on 3/11/08 by Harlequin]

I do quite understand that buying Russian is an unnessecary taboo in the west but i just presented alternatives. Fine one's too i must say.

Offcourse those "fantasy" variations on excisting planes would be difficult to make but i came up with those to give viewers off this thread a taste off what for alternatives there could be.

My choice would be the Rafale-M looking from western perspective but i would love to see the UK finaly buying some good stuff from Russia.

Originally posted by C0bzz
Vertical stabs on the F-35 would ruin planar alignment. Sorry if I did not make that clear enough.

It would only ruin planar alignment with the rest of the aircraft designed as it is.




Having 1 single vertical fin does not automatically mean a high RCS aircraft.

That is the bit I want to make clear to everyone.

The carrier version of the typhoon is already happening....

It's off the drawing board


I offered you guy's the opputunity to speak with an engineer and you'd all rather live in cloud cuckoo land.

The JSF is a nice peice of engineering.
The Typhoon Is an excellent peice of engineering.
BAE also have other concept Aircraft and other planes being built
The MOD has/will cut the orders of JSF especially if the eurofighter is going to be on a carrier....

One of the most intresting peices of information about the typhoon is already they have increased the payload capabilities.

We won't and never will put all our eggs in one basket.

The carrier version of the typhoon is already happening....

No, it is not. There is no funding for either naval Typhoon or CATOBAR.

It's off the drawing board

Even if that was true, it's irrelevant.

IF there are problems with JSF then they MIGHT fund naval Typhoon and CATOBAR. Presently? There is no funding for either. JSF remains, as quoted in my first post, the aircraft they are seeking - not anything else.

I offered you guy's the opputunity to speak with an engineer and you'd all rather live in cloud cuckoo land.

And I tried to take up your opportunity. I said...:

SURE! I have VENTRILLO and TEAMSPEAK 2. Come on, post the server details and time here. My microphone broke but I can still type it.


Infact, get him to register on ATS. Does he have MSN? What about an email?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

But YOU never posted any details. Right, cookoo land? Can't read? Or, was there never was an engineer?

The JSF is a nice peice of engineering.
The Typhoon Is an excellent peice of engineering.

They are both good aircraft.

The MOD has/will cut the orders of JSF especially if the eurofighter is going to be on a carrier....

IF the F-35 is not going on a carrier, THEN the MoD MAY buy the Eurofighter, or one of the alternatives.

[edit on 4/11/2008 by C0bzz]

reply to post by ian990003100


There is 1 problem with BAE Systems and there `word` over how easy something is


Nimrod MR4

an `easy` conversion thats 8 years late and way over budget;

so i will say that when BAE say its eay , a tub of salt should be applied.

edit:

also another thing; the HMS QE is designed around STOVL ops , the second ship Price onf Wales does have a CATOBAR back fit - but neither were designed with Sea Typhoon in mind.

[edit on 4/11/08 by Harlequin]

Originally posted by C0bzz
Ever even launched a single rocket that's launched a satellite?

Yes actually Just the one succesful launch , Black arrow rocket delivered prospero x-3 in 1971.
please see here for more details.

en.wikipedia.org...

Not exactly Apollo standard but it has been done by Britain ,and i would imagine that this would make us the only country to have had this capability then discarded or cancalled it?

Originally posted by Harlequin
reply to post by ian990003100

 

There is 1 problem with BAE Systems and there `word` over how easy something is


Nimrod MR4

an `easy` conversion thats 8 years late and way over budget;

so i will say that when BAE say its eay , a tub of salt should be applied.

The vast majority of the issues with the MRA.4 are not BAEs fault, and this has been recognised several times by sequential governments.

also another thing; the HMS QE is designed around STOVL ops , the second ship Price onf Wales does have a CATOBAR back fit - but neither were designed with Sea Typhoon in mind.

[edit on 4/11/08 by Harlequin]

Both of the new carriers are designed to be converted to cat standard at any point in their operational lives, and that standard is not designed with any particular aircraft in mind.

reply to post by buckaroo


Actually, Australia is with you on that one. In fact, Australia was the fourth country to get a satellite in orbit, behind the USSR, USA and France.

WRESAT

Sorry for the diversion, thought it was interesting though. Back to the JSF/BAE shennanigans!

www.janes.com...

UK procurement officials are considering options to push back the first purchase of Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) aircraft, amid growing speculation that funding shortfalls are threatening UK participation in the programme.

Jane's has learnt that UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) officials have raised the possibility of not buying three low-rate initial production (LRIP) aircraft over the next two years at a cost of some GBP450 million (USD742 million) and delaying purchases until production-standard aircraft are available in the middle of the next decade. A decision not to acquire LRIP JSFs was recently taken by Italy, Lockheed Martin announced on 10 October.

The ministry's highest procurement planning group, the Investment Appraisals Board (IAD), is due to make recommendations on the LRIP JSF purchase at its January meeting. However, some ministry sources suggest a delay might be used as a mechanism to save UK participation in the US-led programme by pushing back the JSF spending 'bow wave' until well into the next decade, easing the ministry's 'funding gap' in the near term.

The UK MoD was not able to respond to Jane's ahead of publication.

reply to post by RichardPrice


what ever the `issues` with the MR4 - BAE systems are the lead and thus take the blame - the aircraft IS late and WILL cost more than BAE said they would - at £292 million each, thats 3 times what BAE quoted the cost as; - which is one of the reasons the entire programme likely will be cancelled as a `bad job`; another is quite simpy - in this day and age - do the RAF really need 12 dedicated sub hunters.

as for the cats;

Alstom (now Converteam) won the DERA competition for the EMCAT for use on the QE2 ships - although BAE Systems are in talks to General Atomics for proposal of using there EMALS system (the one for the ford class) so a bit of competition there

navy-matters.beedall.com...

and they will be fitted with mag cat backfit from the start - 2 reasons really , france have come on board for the design for their new carrier and it needs to be CATOBAR for rafale (so will likely use the french mag cat system ) and the UK will want CTOL operations at some point: sooner rather than later if there are issues with the F35

so i stand corrected

As a matter of fact, french involvement is becoming almost irrelevant as Sarkozy has pulled them out of the agreement and they will not make a decision until 2012/14.

But yes, it does seem that they will be built as hybrid carriers, capable of both ski-jump take off and vertical landing as well as operating conventional take off and landing aircraft like the E-2 hawkeye.

Jensy

WOW I think you guys need to get a boxing ring and fight this out.

Before I say anything. I will say I have no contacts in BAE when it concerns fighters. Only submarine engineers in Barrow. Not as cool so I aint going there.

All of what you have both said are both correct and flawed. First off I am British and I have a huge amount of respect for both US and UK armed forces.

The Eurofighter is a cool craft and I have been following its development for many years. There is no and there is unlikely to be any kind of naval version. It will cost too much to add to a project that has already cost way too much. The F-18 are designed for carrier landing and even they have got cracks in their airframes from carrier landings

The typhoon would require extensive reinforcement of the whole airframe. trach 1 may not be as much of an issue as they are lighter anyway, But not as advanced and dont have as far as I know air-ground capability.

As for the F35-c variant well rumour has it the navy will buy 3 at first to see if it meets requirements. I am sure I have read somewhere that due to its design it has to fire its missiles evenly to prevent unbalance and possibly drop its load before it lands Crazy considering the Harrier doesnt. citation needed on that its what I read dont know how true.

Regarding the Raptor. This is like the Typhoon. Awesome plane but like the Typhoon it was designed for a cold war that no longer exists. It is likely neither will get the chance to do what they were built for Air-Air combat. The Raptor can not hold as many armaments as the Typhoon unless it externally loads missiles. Consequently it would no longer be stealth. Who would win in a fight. Hmm pilot skill. Whilst US and UK pilots are arsing about seeing who can win a hyperthetical battle the Russians may send an SU-37 and kill us both

Regarding is following stealth aircraft over lakes with Tornado jets. I never heard of this. I heard it was a chance dummy combat where by 2 f-15s or f-16s cant remember which engaged a single typhoon and the typhoon got away and locked onto both of them. So it should they are very old planes.

Who cares about the benefit or lack of benfit to two tails. It looks cooler!!

I dont know why Britain wants f-35c. The carriers are being designed with the option of catapults or even the unproven but developed magnetic launcher. This is system that can be added to the carriers at a later date

Oh one final thing. The Raf has twice intercepted TU-95s. I know the first incident was detected by Norway who contacted the British to tell us. Tornadoes made the first intercept and the Russians turned around. It was not 20 miles off of the coast it was alot further.

2 Typhoons went on th second incident. Thats all I know about it, not sure how close they got. OhI have seen a few Eurofighters flying over my hometown, Usually in groups of 4. Not sure why as I live 4 miles from RAF Woodvale and they train there. Cant imagine why Typhoons are up here.