Is the Rapture and Holy Trinity a hoax perpetuated by man?

I am very curious what people can give me on this because I've gone about as far as I am able and I am looking for ideas. I was raised a staunch Catholic who believed in the Holy Trinity and the Rapture. Now I am not so sure what I believe.

Let me tell you what I have found and I would like to hear from people, pro and con, about what you believe and where to find it.

First, the Rapture. I grew up believing in this whole hearted and even read the Left Behind books. Great books by the way, rapture or not. However, after doing some studying I have found out that, at least to me, it seems that the rapture is a man-made thing and isn't going to happen.

Whether you believe it was Darby, McDonald, or Irving who first thought it up, it is clear the first mention of this began in the 1830's. That much is fact. Little, if anything, is mentioned in the Bible about the Rapture except for an obscure verse in 1Th 4:17. No where else, that I have found, is there a mention of a pre-tribulation rapture.

As far as the Trinity goes there are so many obscure verses that go back and forth I don't know what to believe. This much I know for certain. When something is important to God he makes it clear. "Thou shalt not kill." Pretty straight forward, yes? So where does God, or anyone else for that matter, actually speak of a Trinity?

Again, it was created by man and started during Constantine's rule (or Nicea if you want to believe that). There are many references in the Bible to God, his son, and the holy spirit... but never anywhere does it ever say the three are one God. There are certain things people said in the Bible that can make one infer one way or the other... but that isn't good enough for me. I want to know what God wanted us to believe and if is was so important then I believe he would have included it in the Bible somewhere.

So my friends, can any of you shed some light on this for me one way or another. For the basis of this discussion we will assume that Jesus is the Son of God, so please don't write how Jesus never existed or anything like that. This thread is to show proof of, or against, the rapture and the trinity.

I am very confused on what to believe and I would like your help. Anything will be appreciated. Thanks all.

the goal of knowledge is for you to understand and gain a pure/holy spirit through which all wisdom is dicernable. That pure/holy spirit is the what connects us to infinity. The father, the son, and the holy spirit. They are all one in the same.

Hi Alienmojo
Yes, I believe in the holy trinity but not through what i read but through what i experience.
The way that i make it easy to understand is that the holy trinity is like water.
You can have water, ice and steam. Three things in one.

I pray to God and thank him for things in life, the world, nature and personal things.
I pray to Jesus when i am praying for healing for people or asking for a word of knowlege for example.
Now the holy spirit as it says in the bible, is like the wind, you know not from where it it coming or where it is going. (if i remember correctly). and i truly believe this as i can be at a prayer meeting and sence that the holy spirit is not with us so we pray for the holy spirit to join us and partisipate in the meeting. Then more often than not he will reveal his presence to us and it can take many forms but mainly by answering our prayers and just KNOWING he is there. When you are open to The holy spirit he will let his presence be known.

Originally posted by Alienmojo
...Whether you believe it was Darby, McDonald, or Irving who first thought it up, it is clear the first mention of this began in the 1830's. That much is fact. ...

No, that much is LIE. The first known mention of the rapture, if you leave out all biblical verses, is somewhere about 180-300 AD, if I remember correct.

Here is an excerpt from www.believersweb.org... (please note the footnotes at the end of that link)

...Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. ...

This is the quote in question:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

There are others, if you bother to do your homework.

[edit on 2-11-2008 by sir_chancealot]

Of course it was. In my opinion you should be questioning something else as well, the big pink elephant. How can one evolve spiritually If someone else has already allegedly figured it out and is shoving the manual down your throat? A manual that has earned them enough revenue to become a huge worldly power??? You are on the right track..... I would love to write more to an obvious intelligent & objective soul like yourself. However this thread is going to get sooo obscenely & perversely ugly. I am going to bail before another GOD loving soul burns me and perhaps you at the stake in GOD's name....



Amen,


~Hyp

reply to post by Alienmojo


You're in error on both points:

1. The Christians at Antioch compiled the first Bible in 120 A.D.

(Nowhere in the minutes of the Nicea Council does it even say they "made" the Bible, that's a popular myth.)

2. The pre-trib rapture dates to Paul, and it was most certainly taught looooooong before 1830, that is also a myth:

History of the Pre-Trib Rapture

reply to post by HypnoAsp

A manual that has earned them enough revenue to become a huge worldly power???

That's one of the reasons I use a King James Bible.


It has no copyright.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


the futurist version of the rapture?

what happened at the flood? Noah safe with family on earth whilst the world was destroyed.

passover Gods people safe in houses whilst the rest were punished/destroyed

slaughter of the guilty. Gods people marked and not touched whist the rest were slaughtered.

battle of jericho. one true beliver in her house whist everything else was destroyed.

Jesus' Parable of Wheat & Tares Matthew 13:30 KJV

Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:47-49 KJV

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

please note that in his parables jesus did not say such as

when the net was full it was sifted and thrown in again

there is no "pretrib" rapture

re the persecution from Satan and his lot

Jesus is our example, he was spat at lashed stabbed and crucified. was he raptured away out of it? no he endured as so we will have to or die just has the apostles died for their faith.

the get out of tribulation card is false.

david


Matthew 13: 24-30, 36-43

reply to post by drevill


That is at the end of the Tribulation.

The rapture is the "firstfruits", what you are describing is the actual harvest.

Jesus is our example, he was spat at lashed stabbed and crucified. was he raptured away out of it? no he endured as so we will have to or die just has the apostles died for their faith.

the get out of tribulation card is false.

You need to study the Jewish wedding tradition:


www.his-forever.com...

hello there

whist i give you thanks for the link i will stick with the Bible on this brother.

Col 2:8 KJV

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The Jewish wedding tradition is not an institution of God

Matt 24 KJV

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

david

reply to post by Alienmojo


i suggest reading a book called The Gods of Eden, by William Bramley! here's an excerpt from his chapter, The Jesus Ministry:

The story most people know of Jesus is told in the New Testament. The New Testament, like much of the Old Testament, is in many places a greatly altered version of the original accounts on which it is based. In addition, probably less than 5% of all that Jesus and his original followers taught is found in the Bible.

Many of the changes and deletions to the New Testament were made by special church councils. The editing process began as early as 325 A.D. during the First Council of Nicea, and continued well into the 12th century. For example, the Second Synod [church council] of Constantinople in 553 A.D. deleted from the Bible Jesus’s references to “reincarnation”—an important concept to Jesus and his early followers. Later, the Lateran Councils of the 12th century added a tenet to the Bible that was never taught by Jesus: the concept of the “Holy Trinity.”

The Christian church did not limit itself to changing a few ideas, it also rejected entire books. The church destroyed many documents and records which contradicted the radical changes that were made to Christian doctrine by these councils. Fortunately, the original writings which survived the editing process still offer valuable clues and insights into the life of Jesus.

Many writings rejected by the church councils found their way into a book known as the “Apocrypha” (“hidden writings”). The Apocrypha consists of writings which were adjudged to be of dubious origin or quality by the church.

Some of the material was rightfully rejected. Other Apocryphal works, however, were omitted simply because they contradicted the official church version of Jesus’s life on several crucial details. These are details which, if carefully researched, would offer a somewhat different outlook on the life of Jesus from the one presented in the authorized Bible.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...
(scroll down for the chapter)




go on and read the rest of the chapter!! it goes into much more detail!!

by the way, this book's cheap, so i recommend it to most people for that reason alone, especially for what it's worth with the volume of information that it covers! ...what a great history book!!

read on to see what it says about Jesus's "lost" years!!

peace!

[edit on 2-11-2008 by adrenochrome]

If you loved your brother you would prepare yourself to help him. When at the end you see and gain that holy intention all of those mistakes you made to get there where worth it. I may suffer because of your ignorance, but others have suffered because of mine. So this is why i love you even if you hurt me because the lesson is beautiful.

In john it says,
1
1 2 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. You have faith in God; have faith also in me.
2
In my Father's house there are many dwelling places. If there were not, would I have told you that I am going to prepare a place for you?
3
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back again and take you to myself, so that where I am you also may be.
4
Where (I) am going you know the way." 4
5
Thomas said to him, "Master, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
6
Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth 5 and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7
If you know me, then you will also know my Father. 6 From now on you do know him and have seen him."
8
Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us."
9
Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
10
Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.
11
Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else, believe because of the works themselves.
12
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I am going to the Father.
13
And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14
If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.
15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,
17
the Spirit of truth, 9 which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.
18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you. 10
19
In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live.
20
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you.
21
Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."
22
Judas, not the Iscariot, 11 said to him, "Master, (then) what happened that you will reveal yourself to us and not to the world?"
23
Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.
24
Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.
25
"I have told you this while I am with you.
26
The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name--he will teach you everything and remind you of all that (I) told you.
27
Peace 12 I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.
28
13 You heard me tell you, 'I am going away and I will come back to you.' If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.
29
And now I have told you this before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe.
30
I will no longer speak much with you, for the ruler of the world 14 is coming. He has no power over me,
31
but the world must know that I love the Father and that I do just as the Father has commanded me. Get up, let us go.

so right there it tells you that god and jesus are one

As far as the rapture that word is used by christian it is the latain word meaning caught up or snatched up and clearly in Thessalonians it says this
Thessalonians 4: 16-17 - "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
I am sorry i really dont see how this is so hard to get

reply to post by Alienmojo

Whether you believe it was Darby, McDonald, or Irving who first thought it up, it is clear the first mention of this began in the 1830's. That much is fact. Little, if anything, is mentioned in the Bible about the Rapture except for an obscure verse in 1Th 4:17. No where else, that I have found, is there a mention of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Again, it was created by man and started during Constantine's rule (or Nicea if you want to believe that). There are many references in the Bible to God, his son, and the holy spirit... but never anywhere does it ever say the three are one God. There are certain things people said in the Bible that can make one infer one way or the other... but that isn't good enough for me. I want to know what God wanted us to believe and if is was so important then I believe he would have included it in the Bible somewhere.

I read about what happened at the end of the first millennium and there was a big expectation of a rapture happening, then, so the basic concept is an old one.
The trinity is old, too and goes back to Jesus' commission to his Apostles. They were to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. It pre-dates Nicea, but that was when the Trinity doctrine was formalized. The Trinity as given over to dogma, is incorrect, in my opinion, but is based on an old underlying concept that is Biblical.

reply to post by jmdewey60


what do you think William Bramley's interpretation of the Holy Trinity, as shown in my post above??

read that chapter!!

[edit on 2-11-2008 by adrenochrome]

Originally posted by adrenochrome
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

what do you think William Bramley's interpretation of the Holy Trinity, as shown in my post above??

I did not find anything about the Trinity, other than what is in your post. I do not think he is right. The trinity was around for a long time before the 12th century.

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

Originally posted by Alienmojo
...Whether you believe it was Darby, McDonald, or Irving who first thought it up, it is clear the first mention of this began in the 1830's. That much is fact. ...

No, that much is LIE.

[edit on 2-11-2008 by sir_chancealot]

A lie? Seems a bit harsh. However, even if it was sooner it still doesn't make it bibical, but man-made. If it is purely man-made then it may be in error. Honestly the rapture problem doesn't bother me too much because if you believe in Christ and follow his teachings you are saved anyways. As long as I join him in heaven I don't care if there is a rapture or not.

Very interesting stuff though and I intend to read it. Thank you so much!

fall on our knees at your bedside and in all earnestness........

Ask him if he's real and make himself known to you.............


You'll receive your answer..

I just don't get how ppl can just say I can't find it .. and


I've never prayed about it..

GAH !! there's your problem .. have enough guts to ASK.............Ask Seek Knock .. on your knees..

how hard is that ????