The moronic tyranny of the "there´s no proof" crowd

Originally posted by seagrass
There is such a thing as middle ground. Grey areas, and balance, you know. Certain posters never show their "balance".

No, not with fact. Law, science, anything based on logic requires either a yes or no. It's irrational to believe in something even though you know fact states otherwise. This is why conspiracy theorists or people who believe UFO's are extraterrestrials are considered "nuts". Instead of actively searching for proof the notion is factual enough for them.

Originally posted by seagrass
It's a good example because they weren't spit on after evidence of flight, they were revered.

No, it's a terrible example because they were able to prove that flight is possible outside of nature. They were able to form a coherent hypothesis, test it, and prove it to peers. What does reverence have anything to do with fact? It doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, all that counts is what's provable.

Originally posted by seagrass
There are more discoveries yet to be made. We aren't done yet.

Just because something hasn't been discovered yet or proven to be what people claim it is, doesn't mean it will be ever discovered or proven to be what you want it to be. Facts are a finicky thing. The universe doesn't behave as you want it to.

Originally posted by Donoso

Originally posted by seagrass
There is such a thing as middle ground. Grey areas, and balance, you know. Certain posters never show their "balance".

No, not with fact. Law, science, anything based on logic requires either a yes or no. It's irrational to believe in something even though you know fact states otherwise. This is why conspiracy theorists or people who believe UFO's are extraterrestrials are considered "nuts". Instead of actively searching for proof the notion is factual enough for them.

No, facts are also like cars, they age, and deteriorate with new discovery. New technology. But someone had to think outside the box to get that new thing made. Someone needed help brainstorming. And then to get the information out there. It isn't an irrational process, but a creative inventive one. Fact, we have not enough fuel sources. Enter creative genius.....He invents a car fueled by water.... Fact was never true... we had enough fuel resources the whole time. Nuts? Many a genius was nuts.

Originally posted by seagrass
No, facts are also like cars, they age, and deteriorate with new discovery. New technology. But someone had to think outside the box to get that new thing made. Someone needed help brainstorming. And then to get the information out there. It isn't an irrational process, but a creative inventive one. Fact, we have not enough fuel sources. Enter creative genius.....He invents a car fueled by water.... Fact was never true... we had enough fuel resources the whole time. Nuts? Many a genius was nuts.

Those aren't scientific facts (laws). I'm sure you're well aware that the definition of fact, law, and theory in science have nothing to do with the layman's understanding of "fact".

For example:

The laws of gravity still apply to what they were meant to describe, Newtonian physics are still used in everyday physics. It doesn't matter if General Relativity is the more accurate description of the physics in question, the old model still does it's job.

What you're talking about is a believed fact that's proven false through time. It's hard to deny Aliens exist once they've been proven, right? We're not there yet. Most of the conspiracy subjects on these forums are nowhere near the mark of being even testable.

reply to post by Donoso

Just because something hasn't been discovered yet or proven to be what people claim it is, doesn't mean it will be ever discovered or proven to be what you want it to be. Facts are a finicky thing. The universe doesn't behave as you want it to.

Doesn't mean it won't either. You can predict the future? Your facts don't change? You aren't open for new discovery? You gonna sit on those facts and not let them evolve? Are you going to be OK if they do change? What if I believe the Universe does behave the way I want it to? Will you think I am nuts?

reply to post by Donoso


Yesterdays "facts" are todays superstitions.

And yet, they keep trying to wave the factsheet in front of our face.

Any fact is only so temporarily...and this has indeed been proven throughout our historicial timeline.

Amazing!

There's a difference between being open to change and being open to anything that comes by your plate. Why should I accept something that hasn't been proven yet? If that's the way our world worked, we'd convict people for murder before they'd even commit the supposed crime. If the information and research you've done is published in a peer reviewed journal, I'd gladly read it and accept it through proof.

That proof constitutes:

Data! Which you get from? Tests! Which can be repeated by third parties!

Also, theories in Science don't necessarily execute the previous mainstream theory. They usually expand, simplify, and better prove the subject to which the theory belongs. That doesn't change the underlying fact.

Now you are going to use the law of gravity as a roadblock to this discussion?
Albert Enstein~"Imagination is more important than knowledge." and "Gravitation is not responsible for people falling in love." This thread isn't about whether or not something is a fact, but that in seeking knowledge sometimes facts or "laws" need not block our way.
more from Albert~
"The only real valuable thing is intuition."
"A person starts to live when he can live outside himself."
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."
"The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking."
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
"The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe."
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain, as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." shall I go on?

reply to post by Skyfloating



Ok Sky, when the people get "SOLID PROOF" they still can't explain it so what the hell.
What's the proof??........CROP CIRCLES........ok, explain....

Who created them?
Why did they create them?
Do these patterns mean something?

I don't know the answers and I don't care what and why. I just provided the so called proof...and they are there for all to see and take pics of.
Why are they? You tell me I have no clue.

The point of this is if you have undeniable proof that something is there and the human still has questions.......unanswered.

Why do people say.....prove it. Because the "word" of the people has become worthless. Nobody believes anything anymore.

When the King wanted a person dead, he would say "bring me his head."
I think it's part of the human condition is "Seeing is beliving"/

the end..........chop!!!

reply to post by Donoso


Next thing someone will say the police officer should wait for publication in a peer-reviewed journal before following a lead he got by phone (with zero evidence)

Thought you guys might like this.
A "no-proofer" catching himself in his own lie.
He was trying so furiously to once again discredit my post, and derail the thread, that in his single-minded frenzy he proved my point FOR me...
enjoy...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 1-11-2008 by ashamedamerican]

reply to post by ashamedamerican


Thanks. Happens by the minute here.

Originally posted by ashamedamerican
Thought you guys might like this.
A "no-proofer" catching himself in his own lie.
He was trying so furiously to once again discredit my post, and derail the thread, that in his single-minded frenzy he proved my point FOR me...

enjoy...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 1-11-2008 by ashamedamerican]

Absolutly delightfull
A great moment indeed
Thx for sharing with us.

In topic, i think it is quite interesting how some members sudenly appear in this debate squizing, twisting and exagerating all the meaning of it, aparently just for the pleasure to be..."against".
Fanaticism is indeed a very bad thing!
But in the overoll, keep the exelent debate guys ! Always a interesting theme.

I do agree with the OP, however, I can also see what drives the other side.
You say that a conspiracy is not a fact but rather speculation.
The problem with some people is that they act as though whatever they're discussing is fact, which then causes the argument of proof.
At this stage, it's almost a religious debate.
The debate between someone who has complete faith in their theory, and someone else who believes the evidence does not warrant such faith.

The hardest thing for a person to do is not hold a concrete opinion about something.
I believe that the ideal conspiracy theorist should be aware of the evidence, but also be aware that it's not proof.
I guess what I'm getting at is that blame can be put on the other side of the spectrum as well.
When someone raises the bar from speculation to 'this is fact', then you can be assured that someone from the other side will challenge that.

Originally posted by TXMACHINEGUNDLR
Look, if you think the believers are thought of as anything more than idiots by the skeptics you are wrong. I happen to believe UFOs are out there. I have no proof they are from another planet. I can believe they are time travelers from our future before I can believe they are aliens from another planet. I need real hard science and data to make a good decision. All the math "geeks" at the top schools seem to think we are nuts, and since they are pretty much the smartest people on earth where does that leave our argument?

indeed people should try their darndest to provide evidence for their experiences, but in some cases that is not possible. what do some of the skeptics on this site do? i'll show you: sadistic mockery

it's one thing to disagree with someone's experience and say you can't imagine that being possible without more evidence, it's quite another thing when a skeptic goes out of their way like that thread to openly mock and demean someone and their experience. i said as much in that thread. and the sad part is, that kind of thread is just barely within t&c's because it's not a direct attack against any one person. what it is is a blatant attempt by a skeptic to denigrate a swath of people and mock what they feel were real terrifying experiences. how sick can a human being get? that thread still irks me from yesterday. i myself am not on either side of the fence whether abductions happen, but i'm not about to sit there and mock their experience and percieved terror real or not.

by all means, ask for evidence. it's how we establish facts from fantasy. evidence and facts, however, are not subject to the whims of skeptics. i think all self proclaimed skeptics need to take a step back and think " am i presenting a counter argument to this experience or belief, or am i merely espousing incredulity with no evidence of my own? am i doing this in a polite way, the way i'd like someone to disagree with me if they didn't believe something i had to say?" if a skeptic can't do that, they have no business posting in a thread. it's common manners and decency really.


at least those are just my opinions.

The 'show me proof' card has little to no substance in an intellectual debate anyways. Do you think if there was proof readily available at our hands, that we would even be discussing the topic in the fashion that it would be? (Hypothetically speaking.)

There is no proof of anything from a metaphysical or philosophical standpoint, because everything is subjective to each individual. There is no proof that Germany exists to me, because I haven't traveled there myself. There is no proof that the color green to me is the color green to you. I might see a '67 Mustang; you may see a '94 Civic Hatchback.

There is no proof that some of the members here have been visited by extra terrestrials. All we ask is your patience and an open mind and heart when diving into any certain topic.

...I hope this makes sense to people. I'm kind of hit and miss with my way with words most of the time.

I understood you perfectly... you were talking aboutChristmas right?

reply to post by seagrass


Lol, pretty much. The giving and loving and uniting aspects of the holiday, not the selfish and (religious) intolerant aspects of it though. You know, if ya wanna think of it that way...

...Yep, this entire thread could be described as a metaphor for Christmas.

[edit on 1-11-2008 by Tgautier13]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by TruthTellist
TSOM87,

Then why are you looking for tangible "proof" on the internet?

All you will ever find is pictures and words on a screen.

The limitations of internet research (that should be obvious) often lead to 'skeptics' demanding impossible proofs - proofs that cannot be properly conveyed through the computer monitor, but nothing tangible.

*Most 'skeptics' conveniently ignore these obvious limitations, and will continue to demand 'proof's that could not possibly be conveyed via the internet and PC screen. This is incredibly frustrating.


[edit on 1-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

Good point. This is a 2-Dimensional World with virtual-online-identities asking for 3-Dimensional Proof.

How moronic can one get?

I'll repeat myself again...Someone on ATS could be seeing UFOS through there telescope everynight, that can lead to proof, i could go see it for my self!

Someone mite have a UFO locked up somewhere, that can lead to proof, i could gocheck it out for my self!

When ''SEARCHING'' for ''PROOF'' you have to try every option! I want to see it with my own eyes!

I was thinking that getting a 67 mustang for Christmas, in Germany from Aliens would be kinda fun. Please say it's possible.