Practical Application of Redistribution of Wealth

a women who used to be my coworker at work has gone grocery shopping and then passed a few of these people by on the road and stopped and offered them food straight from her shopping bags....
at least one actually got angry...he want the money....he didn't want the food....he want the alchohol he could buy with the money!!

but then, your tax money isn't going to him, is it?? I mean, if it were, he wouldn't be homeless now, would he? these guys have taken up residence in an empty lot behind my coworker's home...they live there....not in a shelter, and definately no in any hud subsidized housing! they live in a vacant, overgrown lot! who knows, maybe there's a vacant runned down house hidden in the overgrowth. and well, to put it frankly.....
these guys are doing more work at reeking out their living than I've seen some of the recipients doing to earn their money.....
by the way, one of them is a nam vet with some serious mental issues, why isn't he in a hospital somewhere getting treatment, or why isn't our government fullfillling the promises that they made these people when then went into the service? why are our vets being caste out into the streets scarred and maimed?

nyk537, this is a deeply UNscientific experiment, since it's not even considering the nation-wide context of governmental wealth redistribution program that Obama has. In the given political context, to support such a program has big chances to end up helping these people on the streets, since the government is the only entity that can make economic bridges between the poorest and richest people in this country, through a taxation system more proportional to revenues, a more acessible healthcare/education system, support to community organizations and some

This is ridiculously childish to expect every single person (assuming they are middle-class liberals, since the upper-class neocons won't give a single penny to the poor or the labor class, or make any concessions to them whatsoever) in that coutry that has an extra 10$ to give it to the homeless person sitting on the sidewalks, and on the other hand, this server was RIGHT to be upset since they are mostly an underpaid class of workers whose revenues depend partly on the tips customers give them.

Fighting poverty, on a political perspective, means a deep change in the way government is approaching social-economic inequities, but in a country where military spending and corporate welfare are like 10 times more expensive to government budget than social welfare, it's not unrealistic. To redirect only a few billions to the ones who truly need it would be just common sense, and not "socialism", as the neocon zealots are all getting wacked-out paranoid about.



[edit on 29/10/08 by Echtelion]

[edit on 29/10/08 by Echtelion]

[edit on 29/10/08 by Echtelion]

WOW...all these people whining about a guy not tipping. He at least had a reason to not tip...it was an experiment in opening someones mind to a concept. I don't tip because its a waiters job to get me what I ask for. If waiters don't like making 2.35 an hour, GET A DIFFERENT JOB! I'm so damn tired of waiters thinking they are owed something extra for doing their job. Now, if the the service is exceptional, and they go above just getting me what I ask for, if they anticipate my needs, then they get a tip. By the way, I don't go into the other spectrum either. If a waiter sucks, I don't gripe at him...I just tell their boss.

Now lets be real here. If a waiter works at a nice restaurant, they have the ability to take home a good hundred bucks a night which is better than a lot of professions I know. The only reason they get pissed off if someone doesn't tip them is because they believed they were owed something and suddenly don't get it.

If I'm a a janitor and get paid to mop the floors, I don't get any extra cash to make it shine above making it clean.

reply to post by midnightbrigade


i disagree. i'm sure you will get flamed hard for this attitude. i have never worked as a waiter, but i know they work hard to service the customer, and a standard %15 tip would suffice, as long as they serve you in a cordial manner. and instead of telling them to get a different job, why dont you make your own food next time.

Sitting back and reading through this, it cracks me up to see how so many are attacking myself, the waiter, the service industry in general, and everything but the real meaning of this story. I've seen people dance all the way around this to try and discredit it's underlying meaning.

Regardless of the specifics of redistribution (which we have talked about in this thread) the message and point of redistribution remains the same.

The fact remains that anyone making over $250,000 a year….err…$200,000 a year….no….$150,000 a year will see an increase in their taxes so that "we" can even the playing field and make everyone "equal". It's not a good idea, and it's wrong for this country.

reply to post by conspiracy nut


It should be apparent by now that I am immune to flaming...I just don't care. I'm not afraid to speak my mind, even if it's not the conventional thinking.

As for cooking my own food, I often do. When I do go out it's usually to a buffet where I get my own food and drinks. However, if i do go to a typical restaurant, I don't tip the busboy for making my table spic and span. I don't tip the Host for snagging me a table by the window, I don't tip the cook for making good food, I pay the price that the restaurant has set for all that service. Guess what else is included in that service? Waiting. So if the cook doesn't like what he gets paid, he moves to another job. Same with the host, or the bus boy. Why wouldn't the waiter do so as well?

Socialism, OOH, Scary,
Life is bad in Socialist countries? What do you all mean by socialist? Sweden is mentioned as an exception. How about England, The Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, etc. According to some right wingers Canada is socialist because we provide health care to whom so ever needs it.
Some developed nations take pride in providing for and helping those of their fellow citizens who cannot help themselves. I do not mean only those who are infirm or disabled, but also the elderly, the mentally ill, the disadvantaged, and even an addict with a bad attitude. In my town we are working to house all homeless, offer treatment to any drug addict, and have every child fed.

I do not know what Obama is proposing (apparently either do Americans who are trying to figure out what he is talking about). But, here a little bit of socialism is about alleviating suffering and is generally considered a good, civil thing to do. I would like to see more of it, in the form of greater subsidies for higher education.

There are no "gated subdivisions" here. We do not need to baracade our families to keep them safe from crime. We prefer to address the root social causes of crime with Social Programs, rather than creating a prison industry.

Human garbage is an oxymoron; there is no such thing. To think that there is such a thing is NWO, elitist thinking.

Why do so many Americans seem to take pride in the crappy condition of their poor? "See, that's what happens when you don't work hard!" That attitude is probably why The USA is 28th country in the world for infant mortality.

Add a dustbowl to this downturn and it will look a lot like the Dirty Thirties again. You like democracy? See who gets elected when less than 50% of working families have any 401K. Oh, we are seeing that, hopefully this November.



[edit on 29-10-2008 by Isispriest]

reply to post by nyk537


Yea, i did go a little off topic there and I apologize, I meant to enhance your argument with a statement of hard work deserves the pay you agree to, (tips or not) and I don't believe its fair to send it to others to make us even.

But in my zealous I detracted from your point, and again I must apologize.

reply to post by midnightbrigade


No worries. It wasn't directed at you in particular.

Not saying everyone's points are not valid (except the ones attacking me), I'm just saying.



I was more or less targeting those who only seek to discredit this entire premise on the basis of something else other than the topic itself.

Originally posted by pexx421
id have to disagree. First off the idea that all money comes from hard work is crap. The rockefellers, Nobels, and many other big names who still have power and money have it because their ancestors where better at robbing and pillaging than the rest. Further, much of todays corporate money is plundered from taxpayers, or legislated into our lives by the power of greed. Many corporations put their competition out of business not by having a better product or services, but by pushing legislation that makes small businesses impractical and unable to compete, or by passing legislation that takes their competition out of legal practice, such as big pharma attacking natural and alternative medicines through the FDA. This is business as usual in washington and surely as much a crime as the wealthy elite voting to give themselves 800billion in a bailout protested by the majority of the taxpayers that money is taken from. It is a truth that a person can work hard their whole life and still die poor and miserable, and if you dont believe that your naivetee is astounding. The rich DO use their power (and money is power...the more money you have the more democracy you can buy) to stack the deck in their favor, while the poor have almost nothing to protect themselves from the powers of the elite. And now, what we have said with this bailout is that the rich need no longer risk, the public will bear the risk, the elite can just stand there and reap the profits. And this is nothing new. 70% of the fortune 500 wouldnt be here today if not for government support or bailouts, we have regularly bailed out the airlines, and the auto companies, and one article i read lately stated that as much as 50% of all corporations pay no taxes. The land of the free....depending on how much freedom you can afford to buy.

Dude, ever heard of paragraphs?

reply to post by midnightbrigade


what country are you from? i wish i could put it more eloquently but you sound like a cheapskate. and hate to resort to name calling i just don't know how else to put it. you are just bashing people who for whatever reason do not have a "well paying job" how about a little respect for people that work to serve your unapreciative butt?

reply to post by conspiracy nut


Let's not resort to name-calling here, we are all entitled to our opinions.

I think in some regards they have a valid point. Do we tip our busboys, or cooks, or hosts(or hostesses)? Not that I can recall. I've done many jobs within resteraunts, and as far as I'm concerned, if anyone working there should be getting a tip, it's the cook or the busboys. They work a lot harder in most cases than the waiters do.

Having said that, I still think tipping is something that's left up to each person individually.

Now, let's try to veer back on topic here.

reply to post by nyk537



you may have a point there, but i can't help but notice the disdain for lower class peole from you and midnightbrigade and frankly the classism disgusts me. im done with this semi off topic rant.

the only form of redistribution of wealth i see being fair is voluntary, Taxes are enforced by threat of violence and seizing of personal property, that is slavery.

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
i can't help but notice the disdain for lower class peole from you

Disdain from lower class people?

Honestly, it doesn't get much lower class than me my friend.

I've got no gripe with anyone who works hard for what they have and applies themselves. The only people I have disdain for are those who ask for something when they have done nothing.

Just thought I'd clear that up...

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
If waiters don't like making 2.35 an hour, GET A DIFFERENT JOB!

This has been discussed in depth in the opening scene of Tarantino's classic "Reservoir Dogs", and long story short, you just exposed yourself as a shameless cheapskate.

The tip is part of the waiter's compensation structure (built into our restaurant system) and as such it's not an option, unless the service sucked (so yes, it does have that role, too).

There are countries where tips are unusual (Denmark) but the base wage is way higher than here.

If the waiters were forced to work for $2 an hour, the restaurants would stop functioning in about 5 min (you can't even survive on $2).

There s nothing wrong with a little bit of this stuff (see wester europe), as long as it doesnt get out of hand (see soviet union, venezuela, cuba, north korea).

If we can get passed demonizing it but also see its obvious faults, the better for us.

Only a complete moron would take "one-side" exclusively...ooops...thats what a lot of posters here are doing...

reply to post by Skyfloating


Honestly, it's hard not to take only one side of it because that's where my convictions and beliefs lie, and I refuse to compromise those. If you want to talk about how a little bit of redistribution may be a good thing, I'll listen and give you my full attention. I'll even concede to certain things that could work and may help. In the end though, I'm still going to believe that this is the wrong path for American to take, and I don't think that makes me a complete moron by any means.

At the same time, I'm not completely bound by my beliefs in the sense that I won't listen to reason or common sense. I just know what I believe and stand by it.

I think people that never really understood taxes until the McCain campaign started spreading the falsehoods that they have about taxes, or the reality of each party's history have been duped by the whole blowing out of proportion of spreading the wealth as some socialist idea or new Obama Idea, when the truth of the matter spreading the wealth is something both parties have done traditionally and will continue no matter who gets in office, but what is certain is that if McCain does we can expect the economy pretty much to continue down the same path as it has recently.

The difference is generally which direction the wealth is spread, generally Republicans spread the wealth upward but use the excuse and falsely assume that when engendered with more money businesses will spread their wealth and do the right thing, hire more workers and re-invest in their business, we all know that this is a make believe and utopian fantasy and when given more profits the majority keep profits.

The reality of that matter is a lot is left up to individuals/business owners what they do with that money that a tax cut (welfare handout from the tax coffer)has given them, the ceo or heads of those businesses in many instance will first maximize the amount of tax breaks and financial gain to enrich themselves and their own families first long before hiring and doing things that would be possibly an economic advantage, many business greedily invested their profits in the junk stocks of the last few years hoping to pad their retirement portfolios or pad the owners pockets even more and recently in many instances because of that greed and extra gains from the Bush tax cuts and poor fiscal policies those investments have crashed.

The wealth is spread upwards by proxy of huge tax cuts with the hope that it flows down, those companies might hire people but what kind of wages do they actually pay? and at bonus time or when there is extra money circulating do they share it with the employees that help keep those business afloat, in many instances no, and in many instances those jobs become high turnover and just another tax break for small to medium businesses because the jobs might be low paying, low skilled and severely limited in career growth in a lot of instances I bet these jobs are not middle class building jobs but low end jobs that most of the time cause workers to find a second job to supplement wages paid by small businesses.


For a great majority of people that own homes or properties, they may not want to realize this but when you do your taxes and taking a deduction on your interest for your home mortgage, that in essence is really a government handout to you for owning a home you get a tax break/credit/cut (welfare handout from the tax coffer) on the interest you pay.

I think people live in a vacuum that think the money you make is all yours and the government might only be giving breaks to those that work hard and deserve it are small business owners and not individuals, most poor people, low to middle income people do not have the luxury of getting a tax break on any property they own, because they don't own any real assets they simply do not have much of anything that they can deduct to lessen their tax burden, so the percentage taxation is pretty much set and is hard to deduct more from.

Higher income workers, homeowners and those that own assests have many more opportunities to use the tax laws to make deductions and take advantage even more to avoid paying what one might see on a graph of average taxation across incomes in almost every instance.

A good enough accountant and proper record keeping will always maximize the amount of tax breaks even beyond the government mandated tax cuts the Bush plan invoked, so after all is said and done and when tax time comes around those in the brackets above 250k yearly generally do pay less taxes because they can deduct much more than someone that makes 50k and does not own any assets and that really has no deductions or credits available to lessen the burden.

The amount of taxes businesses and the wealthy pay are always expressed as a selling point before applying all available tax breaks and deductions, that is what should be revealed as an average to demonstrate real taxes paid and more people would see the relationship that the wealthy in actuality compared to income do not pay a higher percentage in proportion because they can receive credits, deductions and write offs to offset that so they keep more of their income and profits.








[edit on 29-10-2008 by phinubian]

reply to post by nyk537


Im not calling you a moron.