Practical Application of Redistribution of Wealth

Again, i have to point out to you that i am not writing to complain, i am writing to educate you upon your obvious ignorance. I see your total view of socialism comes from "animal farm" and that somehow does not surprise me, however, you dodge my point that democratic socialist countries such as norway and sweden have much more successful political systems and higher standards of living, and you attempt to say all socialist countries have been unsuccessful AND you use communist and socialist interchangably which gives me the impression that you dont understand the difference.

So it seems to me that your original argument was that anyone who wants to work hard can be a millionaire and that there is opportunity for everyone out there who wants to be rich, but now you have switched it to "if the economy sucks then leave" or "if you dont like it here move to a different country" Rather than addressing my concerns that the deck is in fact stacked in the elite minorities favor to keep the wealth among themselves.

Now i believe what you said was that a waiters pay is included in the price of the meal, so that to me implies that their pay should just be what the restaurant alots to them, and so thats all they should expect. Point being though, that waiting tables is NOT necessarily a crappy job, its just crappy when people like you, who think a tip is a priveledge they should beg of you as they rend their bossom, comes through and takes up one of their tables that someone else, who WOULD tip, could have sat at instead.

Lastly, i have made many points showing how those with money and power abuse that authority in order to minimalize competition and small business, and to push legislation that pushes money from the bottom up. Not once have you responded to these points so I am asking now....do you think this is NOT so? Do you REALLY think we live in a system that sets people up for success? Do you REALLY think that we dont have a massive system of bank abuse and criminalization that effectively keeps people down?? Are you truly that naive? Or do you just think so little of your fellow humans? Keeping in mind, that apparently 40% of americans are in a bracket so low they dont pay taxes at all.

reply to post by pexx421


How many more times will you read my posts and still not freakin catch it. I have never changed my stance from the first time I wrote anything about this topic. I NEVER SAID A DAMN THING ABOUT SOCIALISM. Stop misquoting me. I said communist, and that's what the # I meant. Not interchangeable, not me misunderstanding what communism and socialism are..I said and meant communism. You know, where the government gives you everything you need and everyone has the same. That's what fixes the deck in your scenario.

"So it seems to me that your original argument was that anyone who wants to work hard can be a millionaire and that there is opportunity for everyone out there who wants to be rich, but now you have switched it to "if the economy sucks then leave" or "if you dont like it here move to a different country" Rather than addressing my concerns that the deck is in fact stacked in the elite minorities favor to keep the wealth among themselves."

Actually no, my original argument was that I don't want to tip crappy service, but I digress, somewhere along the line, right after you started whining about your city's economy I DID state that you should leave that city and get to one where you can be more richly rewarded. Also, Of course the "elite minority" (spooooky language) is going to keep things stacked in their favor. Easy way to fix that? Become the minority or at least closer to it.

"Now i believe what you said was that a waiters pay is included in the price of the meal, so that to me implies that their pay should just be what the restaurant alots to them, and so thats all they should expect"

Hey, you finally quoted me correctly on that one. Good job. Yes, that is all they should EXPECT. I got two scenarios for you: 1. I go to CrackDonalds and order a Big N Nasty and a drink. The person that took my money, assembled my food and drink on a tray, got me my fries, and handed it all to me did the EXACT SAME JOB as a waiter. You might say he "waited" on me. Do we tip him? Do you? No, you don't. You leave him to make his wage that he agreed to when he signed up. 2. A trash man braves all different weathers, handles large amounts of filth and garbage everyday, gets covered in liquid crap, stands on his feet all day and removes the things that you and I don't want to live with on our property. We don't tip them do we, and I would argue that they perform a much more needed service.

"Point being though, that waiting tables is NOT necessarily a crappy job, its just crappy when people like you, who think a tip is a priveledge they should beg of you as they rend their bossom, comes through and takes up one of their tables that someone else, who WOULD tip, could have sat at instead."

I never said it was a crappy job. What I said was: "In all honesty the only reasons that I can see anyone would be a waiter and agree to crap pay is 1. Because it's decently easy to do, 2. Because you've got fairly flexible hours, and D. Because you can make a crapload of money off people that feel they have to tip no matter what. If the job was that #ty no one would do it, so shut up about it!

For extra emphasis I'll say it again, maybe you'll catch it this time: "If the job was that #ty no one would do it" meaning, it's not a bad job and you are blowing it all out of proportion.

TBC:

"Lastly, i have made many points showing how those with money and power abuse that authority in order to minimalize competition and small business, and to push legislation that pushes money from the bottom up. Not once have you responded to these points so I am asking now....do you think this is NOT so? Do you REALLY think we live in a system that sets people up for success? Do you REALLY think that we dont have a massive system of bank abuse and criminalization that effectively keeps people down?? Are you truly that naive? Or do you just think so little of your fellow humans? Keeping in mind, that apparently 40% of americans are in a bracket so low they dont pay taxes at all."

I don't need to respond to this, because I already told you, if that is the way you feel about it, THEN GO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT instead of whinging on an internet forum. Get in to government and champion for the people. With so many poor folk out there that would love you and your ideas, you would surely get elected, well that's if they actually went and voted. But methinks that would mean they would have to get active in the system, and they haven't done that yet. They just cry about it on message boards.

What an ugly and mean spirited experiment.

It is always customary to tip, how ignorant. If the person was not wearing an obama pin would the experiment take place? This was a slap in the face to democracy and the pursuit of ones happiness. Everyone praising this person should be ashamed.

Like I said many times... And it has proven over ages, and we see it today...

CAPITALISM (The Pyramid Scheme) will die like punk music.

Hm.... i wonder what makes you think that in a communist society everyone has the same. Can you point to a single communist society where that is the case?

Secondly, i dont recall whining, i recall trying to give you examples of situational differences in different places, and how not everyone has all the "opportunity to become rich with a little hard work" that you speak of. The point that as americans we see moving away as appropriate methods of securing income is just further indication of the destruction of family units and support bases that is a major cause of our loss of spirituality and our great increase in mental illness that is a huge reason for many of our current social problems.

And again you go on with your diatribe showing your complete ignorance of how the service industry of waiting tables, delivering pizza, etc. work. Just incase you arent aware let me clue you in on something. If you are a person who does not tip at restaurants, who does not tip your pizza deliverer, who does not tip your baggage boy, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME THERE. If you dont understand the ettiquette of those industries, i am sure if you asked any of your servers there, they would not want you back. Further, i am sure if you asked anyone else on these boards they would agree and label you such things as "cheapskate". I am further amazed if you are married or in a serious relationship as most girls i know cant stand someone to cheap to even tip or understand the ideology behind tipping where its appropriate. This IS why restaurants include tipping over parties of 5. In other countries they DO include tipping in the cost of the meal, and the waiters are rude and see no need to work harder, so in case you dont understand, its an incentive thing to give waiters a reason to serve you well. By abusing this you prove nothing except for your thoughtlessness and disdain for your fellow man who most often is trying to pay their way through school in order to pull themselves up in just the way you are advocating... in other words you are being a hindrance to the type of growth that you are demanding.

Further you really arent making any intelligent or informed responses to the points i listed earlier having to do with the fact that no, not everyone can get ahead in our country, in fact the system is stacked against it. You have shown disdain for the majority of americans who have not been able to "make it rich" and have not stated a single argument that shows anything other than a rudimentary education of judgement and disparagement that you apparently earned by watching the MSM. Again i ask....is the only education you have of our economic system that which you gleaned on fox news, and is your sole education of socialism or communism truly animal farm? You mentioned history books....have you read any of them other than what you got in high school? If the answer to both of these is "NO" then please dont speak of communism or socialism as if you have any clue what they truly entail, as everything you mention is the same prop crap that is shown to demonize it on tv and has nothing to do with the reality of it. Have you read a single book on american policy or history that was not assigned by a teacher? if not, then please dont speak as if you know anything about it.

See, i would say i AM doing something about it, by trying to educate people in the only way available to me. Indeed, just as the deck is stacked against poor folk striking it rich, it is also stacked against people with few means of getting into politics. Point of fact i was reading an article today about the incomes of congress, showing that 90% of congress were millionaires, and that the average income of congress was 800k annually. This is a pretty obvious show of the disparity of our representatives...how can the poor and middle class be truly represented by a group of the wealthy?? Truly there were several candidates that, though wealthy, were pushing agendas that supported the middle and lower class rather than the corporate powers...they would be kucinich, paul, gravel, and now cynthia mckenney, and nader...see what their chances of winning are? Its not that their message is not well received, its that no one even gets to HEAR their message because they are blacked out by the media. So no, its not like any american can just "get out there and DO something"... people with much better plans and much more money than I are trying, and its an uphill battle against a corporate power that is long invested and comfortable in its throne, that has large influence with the media and with legislation. You were implying earlier that we had a free and equal country where anyone can get ahead and that socialism is evil (thats what the whole redistribution of wealth whining was) I say that socialism is the only protection the people have from the fascist corporate powers. You were saying that people in our country fail due to their own laziness and inadequacy, i say this is false. The majority of our lower class i think, fails due to a system that propagates addiction, mental illness, helplessness and hopelessness.

Wealth Redistribution...


This is what Happens when Nations adopt the 'Wealth Redistribution" System;

The preamble to the Constitution states:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Article 1, Section 8 states:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

The The General Welfare of the Constitution is good enough for me, and it is not Marxism. Caring for the United States is caring for its people.

Now the problem is the specific welfare clauses in a democracy at the legislative level. The cookie jar is the problem, and it ends up in the hands of those who are most persuasive, sometimes involving covert actions that are reprehensible to the ambiance of ordinary households.

The General Welfare can mean that when one State is suffering, and the others are doing well, that the Union to that extent is suffering. Hence actual appropriations to States and individuals approaches the proper Constitutional format, and it is not "Marxism."

I do not think that the Founding Fathers would be pleased with a bailout of the Central Banks, that they opposed and considered the road to poverty for all but the Banks. Unfortunately they have worked their way into the "General Welfare," and threatened as in a democracy, not as in a Republic, that bad things would happen, magically, since they cannot admit themselves the cause of it. Until I see the General Welfare, where Welfare no longer means a hot Mama with a Cadillac, but rather the balanced and more perfect Union of the States and its individuals as an informed electorate.

"Hm.... i wonder what makes you think that in a communist society everyone has the same. Can you point to a single communist society where that is the case?"

No, that's why I said it didn't work didn't I?

"The point that as americans we see moving away as appropriate methods of securing income is just further indication of the destruction of family units and support bases that is a major cause of our loss of spirituality and our great increase in mental illness that is a huge reason for many of our current social problems."

I own a telephone. I spoke to my family just as much when I lived 200 miles away as I do now that I live in the same town. Also, I don't have any mental illness, nor did I when I lived an entire state away. Gonna have to pull some numbers to prove that one.

"If you are a person who does not tip at restaurants, who does not tip your pizza deliverer, who does not tip your baggage boy, YOU ARE NOT WELCOME THERE. If you dont understand the ettiquette of those industries, i am sure if you asked any of your servers there, they would not want you back"

I'll concede that point, but that's really not their choice to make is it? They have to serve me...because that's the job they agreed to and get paid for.

"Further, i am sure if you asked anyone else on these boards they would agree and label you such things as "cheapskate". I am further amazed if you are married or in a serious relationship as most girls i know cant stand someone to cheap to even tip or understand the ideology behind tipping where its appropriate"

For the last freakin time. I DO TIP WHERE IT IS APPROPRIATE. I've said it 3 damn times now, get it through your head. My point is that I refuse to tip just because it is expected. If the service is exceptional, I will tip, and tip damn well. I'ts nothing for me to drop a 20 buck tip on a 40 dollar meal IF THE WAITER DID HIS JOB WELL.

"In other countries they DO include tipping in the cost of the meal, and the waiters are rude and see no need to work harder, so in case you dont understand, its an incentive thing to give waiters a reason to serve you well"

I included this cause it goes back to my statement about communism not working

"By abusing this you prove nothing except for your thoughtlessness and disdain for your fellow man who most often is trying to pay their way through school in order to pull themselves up in just the way you are advocating... in other words you are being a hindrance to the type of growth that you are demanding"

Again, you obviously didn't read or understand when I said I do tip for great service.

"Further you really arent making any intelligent or informed responses to the points i listed earlier having to do with the fact that no, not everyone can get ahead in our country, in fact the system is stacked against it. You have shown disdain for the majority of americans who have not been able to "make it rich" and have not stated a single argument that shows anything other than a rudimentary education of judgement and disparagement that you apparently earned by watching the MSM"

Because you haven't made any points that are factual. You show me one, JUST ONE able bodied, mentally sound person that makes good choices, and tell me how they can't do well for himself? Maybe not in the area they are in but I swear to all that is holy they can find an area in this huge country and do well. Never said everyone will be rich, I said people CAN and do make great lives for themselves if they get off their ass and do it. Again the comment about the millionaires was an illustration to show that the wealth is out there and people can achieve a measure of success and monetary happiness by working towards it. Poverty is a choice my friend.

"Again i ask....is the only education you have of our economic system that which you gleaned on fox news, and is your sole education of socialism or communism truly animal farm?"

No, animal farm is just a really good one. Now here's something to trip your trigger...When I was growing up, in high school no less, we had exchange students that lived IN MY HOME! GUESS WHERE ONE OF THEM WAS FROM DENMARK! that's priceless to me...you know where the other one was from? FREAKIN CHINA! LMAO! You don't get much further first hand observations than that do you bud?

"You mentioned history books....have you read any of them other than what you got in high school ... Have you read a single book on american policy or history that was not assigned by a teacher? if not, then please dont speak as if you know anything about it.?"

Um, yea, I have...I've stated in other threads that I love the library...but you probably haven't read those, so I don't hold that against you. Fair question.

"If the answer to both of these is "NO" then please dont speak of communism or socialism as if you have any clue what they truly entail, as everything you mention is the same prop crap that is shown to demonize it on tv and has nothing to do with the reality of it"

I know plenty about both...Just have a different opinion on it than you do. Next post, try not to insult or discredit my intelligence with out knowing anything about MY history. It can make you look foolish

reply to post by midnightbrigade


You sound like a person who 'overtips', resulting in lower tips for the people who do get them from you.

By continuing to tip in such an indiscriminate manner you could inadvertently detract from the monetary value of the given tips.

Since you tip everyone, even the crappy servers - the good waiters who deserve more will receive less than they deserve;

If they were aware of your tipping methods you would no doubt see it in the reduction of the quality of their services.

By tipping even fifty cents more, you are providing incentive for the good waiters to continue being good waiters and are encouraging the crappy servers to shape up by adding a monetary reward - however slight.


In any case; you have provided us with an excellent example of why the workforce in Communist countries never works to optimal efficiency...

There was a saying in the Soviet Union: "We pretend to work, they pretend to pay us".

reply to post by TruthTellist


By the way, great picture above, I love it! But no, I don't overtip. In fact, I'm the opposite of what you describe. I tip generously if the service is fantastic, otherwise I don't tip at all.

I believe that waiters are paid by there wages to provide me with adequate service. That's what they get, adequate compensation (just not from me)

But if they go above and beyond, so does my tip.

SkipShipman - Great point! Props to you.

reply to post by pexx421


"See, i would say i AM doing something about it, by trying to educate people in the only way available to me"

Posting on a conspiracy board, albeit a popular one, isn't doing much to change the world. How about taking time out of your day and running down the the local college campus and speak there? Get involved in the school system to do a high school lecture? Run for local office then district office, then state office and eventually national office. Gotta start somewhere man.

"Indeed, just as the deck is stacked against poor folk striking it rich, it is also stacked against people with few means of getting into politics. Point of fact i was reading an article today about the incomes of congress, showing that 90% of congress were millionaires, and that the average income of congress was 800k annually. This is a pretty obvious show of the disparity of our representatives"

Sounds like disenfranchised, defeatist bull crap to me. Oh I'm sure the figures are correct, but that's the attitude that allows this stuff to happen. "Oh I can't do this cause all these other rich guys will beat me" Even if they get elected and you don't you still win the battle over the system, plus you get exposure so you have a better chance of winning next time.

"how can the poor and middle class be truly represented by a group of the wealthy?? Truly there were several candidates that, though wealthy, were pushing agendas that supported the middle and lower class rather than the corporate powers...they would be kucinich, paul, gravel, and now cynthia mckenney, and nader...see what their chances of winning are? Its not that their message is not well received, its that no one even gets to HEAR their message because they are blacked out by the media"

You just beat your own point right there. There are rich folks that look out for the less wealthy. Just because Ron Paul didn't make president, that doesn't mean he's not making an impact in congress. You act like these great people have no shot of changing anything if they aren't president. The president isn't a dictator...well, not yet You are taking away from all the great contributions that these great politicians have given. Last time I checked, it was still honorable and impactfull to get elected to congress..and as I recall, they DID get elected.

"So no, its not like any american can just "get out there and DO something"... people with much better plans and much more money than I are trying, and its an uphill battle against a corporate power that is long invested and comfortable in its throne, that has large influence with the media and with legislation"

If you truly believe that then the ones you want to fight against have already won by making you think you cant win.

"You were implying earlier that we had a free and equal country where anyone can get ahead and that socialism is evil (thats what the whole redistribution of wealth whining was)"

Never implied that socialism was evil. I implied I was against it due to my personal beliefs. It works in some places, I don't think it needs to here in These united States.

"I say that socialism is the only protection the people have from the fascist corporate powers"

Spoooky language again

"You were saying that people in our country fail due to their own laziness and inadequacy, i say this is false. The majority of our lower class i think, fails due to a system that propagates addiction, mental illness, helplessness and hopelessness."

Spoken like a true defeatist and communist, not socialist. "It's not my fault, Take care of me Mr. Government because I can't do anything about my situation." I love you

[edit on 30-10-2008 by midnightbrigade]

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
reply to post by TruthTellist

 

By the way, great picture above, I love it! But no, I don't overtip. In fact, I'm the opposite of what you describe. I tip generously if the service is fantastic, otherwise I don't tip at all.

I believe that waiters are paid by there wages to provide me with adequate service. That's what they get, adequate compensation (just not from me)

But if they go above and beyond, so does my tip.

SkipShipman - Great point! Props to you.

adequate compensation? minimum wage is 7.15 an hour in new york. maybe you can lay out a plan on how a person lives on a gross pay of $286.00 for a 40 hour week. since you seem to be so knowledgeable as to the "adequate " standard of living, this should be simple for you.

[edit on 30-10-2008 by jimmyx]

reply to post by jimmyx


Oh here we go again.

Actually no. we don't. Go read the other posts. Not happy with the pay? Get a new job.

sorry, duplicate post

[edit on 30-10-2008 by midnightbrigade]

Originally posted by tommy_boy
This is horribly partisan.

The truth is never partisan my friend.

Obama's plan has been posted on his website for a very long time. The numbers haven't changed.

They may not have changed on his website, but the numbers coming out of his mouth have changed.

Changing numbers?

Obama changes tax plan

He's said the same thing in every debate.

True, he said $250,000 in each debate. Then his TV ad said $200,000. Then Joe Biden said $150,000.

So which is it?

Originally posted by nyk537
reply to post by grover

 

Yeah, yeah, I've heard that argument before. For some reason every defense of Obama has to come back to "context".
[edit on 29-10-2008 by nyk537]

Context is everything.... if you think that you can understand something outside of its context then you truly understand nothing.

This applies to Barack Obama, John McCain, politics, religion, science, everything... nothing can be separated from its context without distortion and misunderstanding.

Originally posted by grover
Can't talk with the self satisfied and ignorant.

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 30-10-2008 by Gemwolf]

We are all ignorant of some piece of knowledge.

You can talk with whoever and anyone, but may have
to explain and justify your stance with examples.

In your line of work that pays terribly I recommend
you look for another line of work.

The Sunday paper will show where most of the jobs are
moving too these days.

Good Luck and hope life sends some luck your way.

reply to post by drsmooth23

the same should be true for EVERYBODY..... Rewards should be based on merit, not circumstance.

-------------------------------

Guess your not voting for obama then ?

Originally posted by Aggie Man
reply to post by nyk537

 

It's not redistribution of wealth if the waiter doesn't get his cut. If the money never touched his hands, then how was it "redistributed"? Also, in any redistribution plan, it would be at least a 50/50 division, not highway robbery, as you suggest! Come on now, you are being a little (or a lot) over dramatic.

Fun experiment...hahaha

, but I would hardly call that a practical application of redistribution of wealth. You should probably change the title of this thread to How I stiffed my waiter for outwardly showing his support for Obama

to you....remember, what goes around comes around!

All he did is take a VERY small portion of that waiters tip total
and then step in and act like Obama's idea for the government
and redirect the cash.

His actions are VERY realistic.

In fact under Obama it would be worse.

Also keep in mind that Biden recently lowered the tax cut off
target to 150,000 and that just a few years ago they voted
to raise taxes on ppl making as little as 44k a year.

$22/hr may seem like a lot, but with layers of taxes it is not.

Federal Income Tax
Social Security you may not even see
Medicare
State Income Tax
Sales Tax
Fuel Tax
Property Tax
Ad Valorem Tax
Tags, Licenses, Permits, etc

Taxes on goods as they move thru the system.

My best example is a set of tires is 70+% tax.

Ppl have no idea how bad it has become.