Evidence Of Explosives Hurling 4ton Wall Sections on Winter Gardens Roof

Is there any definitive proof that the 'spire' actually is the towers core?

Take a good look...



Could that not as easily be one corner of the outer mesh columns/facade?

And why does it turn to dust, and not just topple over?

Originally posted by GenRadek
I do not know how much jet fuel poured down. What, would you like an answer in gallons, liters, grams, milliliters, or how about metric tons?

Thanks for that. Finally! It wasn't that hard to admit, was it? You made the claim that jet fuel was in the elevator shafts, but you don't know how much was there or how many elevators it was in. That's all I needed you to state.

Originally posted by GenRadek
However, if you bothered reading ANY of the sites or eyewitness accounts I provided you would begin to get an idea of how much must have poured down them on the account of the people that were there.

See, now you go and contradict yourself. You just admitted that you don't know how much jet fuel was in the elevator shafts but now you're trying to quantify it based on witness statements!

None of those witness statements give me ANY idea about how much jet fuel was in the elevator shafts. That's why I asked you in the very first instance to prove how much jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts.

What idea should I get from the witness statements, GenRadek? Did they describe 1 gallon of jet fuel? 100 gallons? More? None of the statements are specific to how much alleged jet fuel allegedly flowed down any elevator shafts.

It is not possible for you to determine how many internal explosions were due to jet fuel, when you can't determine how much alleged jet fuel allegedly flowed down the elevator shafts.

The whole purpose of this thread is discussing the explosions in the towers. Some people have claimed that it was all due to jet fuel. Yet, you've helped to cast doubt on that, as you've admitted that you don't know how much jet fuel flowed down any of the elevators or if there was enough to cause all of the observed explosions.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by tezzajw]

reply to post by tezzajw


So in other words, you want to completely ignore the eyewitness accounts of people that were there that could give a decent idea of what happened, (having multiple witnesses on multiple floors extending from the highest floors down the sublevels that witnessed first hand, jet fuel and the fireballs AND the power of the fireballs,as they raced down from the impact) and yet you focus on ONE unreliable witness (Willie R.) as enough testimonial proof of "explosives" in the basement? Tezz, I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

But I can see that even with eyewitness accounts from people that were there seeing it all before their eyes, it is still not enough for you to deduce the causes of those "explosions". Can I ask you a question? Are you still hung up on the belief that explosions can only occur with explosive devices? If so, maybe you can provide us examples of explosives that explode, but only burn people and melt them, and do not rip them apart as explosives usually do.

I am curious if you ever put any of the "truther" ideas through such rigorous nitpicking and such? You believe explosives were all planted and detonated in the WTCs even though there is no shred of evidence of any of this, and when reading the accounts from INSIDE the WTCs, they seem to suggest the impact and fireballs from the fuel as the causes of what you think as explosives caused.

How about this account from a firefighter? Would this be able to give you an idea of just how much jet fuel spilled down the elevator shafts? Or is this also unacceptable since all you care about is the amount of jet fuel in the actual amount? I have to question your ability to use critical thinking and logic and common sense here. But before all that, here is the quote:

Firefighter Timothy Brown - South Tower: "We finally set up -- prior to this I believe it was the west side of the core of the building there were elevators. Someone had come to me and said that there were people trapped in one of those elevators. So I ran around the corner, and the hoist way doors were open, but the elevator car was only showing about two feet at the top of the door. You could see all the legs of the people that were in the elevator. I would guess there were about eight people in the elevator. The elevator pit was on fire with the jet fuel. People were screaming in the elevator. They were getting smoked and cooked. There weren't a lot of firemen there at the time. I grabbed some of the Port Authority employees and asked them where the fire extinguishers were and told them to get as many fire extinguishers as they could so we could try and fight this fire. As they were doing that, firemen started showing up, and I started asking them to get big cans, let's try to put this fire out." -

graphics8.nytimes.com...

So even this graphic account is not enough? Jet fuel in the elevator pit burning? At the ground floor? So using some critical thinking this must mean that there had to have been a substantial amount of fuel that managed to find its way all the way down the shaft. But you of course refuse all logic and demand the impossible while at the same time accepting other ideas that are even more dubious and unrealistic.

Here is one more account from one person INSIDE an elevator:

Passenger elevator No. 13. South tower, 78th floor. 9:02 a.m. Alan Mann, 35, an executive vice president at Aon Corp., an insurance company, squeezed into an express elevator packed with 25 people evacuating the south tower. He was the last person in. The doors closed. The elevator descended normally for the first seconds of a ride to the ground floor that should have lasted 60 seconds. Then United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the south tower, tearing through the elevator machine room on the 81st floor. That cut most cables to the express elevators. Elevator No. 13 began a free fall from 900 feet above ground.

"Get on your knees!" somebody screamed. Everybody knelt. People prayed aloud. The elevator fell, banging against the sides of the shaft. As the plunging car neared the ground, the emergency brake grabbed onto the thinnest of nine elevator cables — the only one remaining — and the elevator jerked to a stop.

Mann found himself trapped in a corner of the elevator, lying on top of someone. Debris and dust filled his mouth. Other passengers screamed and moaned. He heard other elevators crashing nearby.

It was dark. A man unpacked his laptop computer and turned it on for light. Injured people begged others not to move because it caused them pain. He could see two Aon colleagues, Alan Friedlander and Donna Giordano.

"Alan, I'm hurt," Giordano sobbed.

"Donna, don't worry, we're going to get out of this thing," Mann said.

Then, somebody yelled, "Oh my God, fire!" Burning jet fuel shot flames into the car, burning Mann's neck. He gasped for breath.

911stories.googlepages.com...

tezz, there are SO many reports of fireballs coming DOWN from the impact site in the seconds after the impacts, from people there and yet, i dont see any of having fireballs coming UP from the basement. Or am I to assume these are the magic explosives that can explode below you and then send a fireball that goes DOWN as if from above you and in front of you?

I even have Arturo Griffith's original account which has been also chopped up, edited, and changed by the so called "truth" sites.
old.911digitalarchive.org...

'I don't know who saved me. It was so black and smoky. I couldn't see nothin',' Arturo said. 'When they got me out, I told them there was someone else down there, a woman. They went back to get her. Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed.'

Great balls of fire traveling down elevator shafts!
Unless you can convince me that they had small little explosives all rigged and set all the way down every shaft to go off in perfect sequence to imitate a fireball traveling down the shaft! OR are you going for small fuel air bombs preplanted in every shaft?

[edit on 1/7/2009 by GenRadek]

[edit on 1/7/2009 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by GenRadek
,as they raced down from the impact) and yet you focus on ONE unreliable witness (Willie R.) as enough testimonial proof of "explosives" in the basement? Tezz, I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

When did I mention Willie R? GenRadek, you're causing me to laugh. You've admitted that you have no idea how much alleged jet fuel made it down to the basement. You've got no idea at all, so how can you determine what caused the explosion in the basement?

You believe explosives were all planted and detonated in the WTCs even though there is no shred of evidence of any of this,

Now you're really making up stories. Please, show me the quote where I stated this. I expect that you will retract this statement, as you won't be able to prove it. Ask jthomas what happens when you make false statements about a fellow ATS member. He's been dealt with by the Moderators in the past for making false claims about me.

So using some critical thinking this must mean that there had to have been a substantial amount of fuel that managed to find its way all the way down the shaft.

Really? Prove it! You have already stated that you don't know how much jet fuel flowed down any elevator shafts. How much jet fuel does it take to burn some people in an elevator? 1 gallon? 100 gallons?

tezz, there are SO many reports of fireballs coming DOWN from the impact site in the seconds after the impacts,

Of course there would be fireballs coming down the elevator shafts. I expect that there would be. The towers suffered some very large explosions and I imagine that some of the hot, fiery air was forced down the elevator shafts. I don't have a problem with people being burnt in elevators or on the floors. There was a rather large explosion that took place.

You admitted that you don't know how much jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts. It is pure speculation to suggest that all of the explosions inside the towers were due to an unknown quantity of jet fuel.

Originally posted by tezzajw

When did I mention Willie R? GenRadek, you're causing me to laugh. You've admitted that you have no idea how much alleged jet fuel made it down to the basement. You've got no idea at all, so how can you determine what caused the explosion in the basement?

Because when you are saying there were explosions in the basement, this comes from Willie himself. And by only referring to this, you are going by Willie's account! Unless you are also going on other dubiously edited accounts of explosions in the basement as well, which originally mentioned having fireballs reaching the basement or coming out of the elevator shafts. But then again, the whole idea of explosives in the basement is entirely based on false assumptions made by a certain group that took quotes and comments out of context and twisted them into this new idea of explosives in the basement. As for the jet fuel, there is more evidence for it than against it.

Now you're really making up stories. Please, show me the quote where I stated this. I expect that you will retract this statement, as you won't be able to prove it. Ask jthomas what happens when you make false statements about a fellow ATS member. He's been dealt with by the Moderators in the past for making false claims about me.

See response above. I did not say YOU said it directly, it means that by claiming "explosions" in the basement you are indirectly referring to Willie and his twisted and numerously changed account. You don't have to mention his name but his already manipulated claim is enough. And please do not resort to making threats. You are insinuating that something other than jet fuel made the alleged explosions in the basement, and this whole claim of "explosions in the basement" is based on Willie's account which has been modified a number of times and not too reliable. You are the one insinuating something other than jet fuel. What else could it be if you do not think it was explosives or jet fuel? I apologize if I jumped to the conclusion you believe explosives were in the WTCs, but how else should I take what you said when you cast doubt on the amount of damage done by the fireball? Once again, logic. Severe damage, I say caused by jet fuel (and the impacts), but you say how could the jet fuel be able to do all that damage? so I think, ok you don't think jet fuel caused all it, what else could it have been? So naturally one would think, maybe explosives?

Of course there would be fireballs coming down the elevator shafts. I expect that there would be. The towers suffered some very large explosions and I imagine that some of the hot, fiery air was forced down the elevator shafts. I don't have a problem with people being burnt in elevators or on the floors. There was a rather large explosion that took place.

You admitted that you don't know how much jet fuel poured down the elevator shafts. It is pure speculation to suggest that all of the explosions inside the towers were due to an unknown quantity of jet fuel.

So let me get this straight, you agree that there were fireballs and jet fuel going down the shafts and burning people and creating pools of it in the pits of some, yet you are still questioning how much was needed? And what will this prove to you?
The other "explosions" in the WTC seem to occur just after the impact. Once again, if you read the eyewitness accounts and see how they describe how much the tower was rocked by the impact, you would be able to get an idea of what caused those "mysterious explosions".
It appears the force of the impact sent shockwaves throughout the building, twisting it and causing the entire structure to shift. Imagine what that does to the building? Once again tezz, I urge you to read ALL the accounts from what i posted earlier and maybe it will shed some light on what else caused the "explosion-like" accounts.

Originally posted by GenRadek
And please do not resort to making threats...

I apologize if I jumped to the conclusion you believe explosives were in the WTCs,

I assure you that I don't make threats. I pointed out to you that making false claims about me could be dealt with by a Moderator. That's not a threat, it's a fact. Anyway, you've apologised for your incorrect statement about me believing that the towers were rigged with explosives all the way up and down, so that's cool. I'll let it pass. Apology accepted, GenRadek.

So let me get this straight, you agree that there were fireballs and jet fuel going down the shafts and burning people and creating pools of it in the pits of some, yet you are still questioning how much was needed? And what will this prove to you?

Be careful what you presume, GenRadek. I acknowledge that there were explosions in the towers and that some people were burned by some fireballs in some elevators.

You made the claim about jet fuel pouring down the elevator shafts, and you also admitted that you have no idea about how much jet fuel there was. You can't tell me if it was 1 gallon, 100 gallons or a flowing river. You admitted that.

I don't know what might have caused all of the explosions in the towers. I don't like to make claims that I can't support, unlike some other people. I challenged you to support your jet fuel claim and you eventually were forced to admit that you can't support any given quantity of the alleged jet fuel flowing down elevator shafts.

[edit on 7-1-2009 by tezzajw]

reply to post by tezzajw

As it stands, the amount of fuel that poured down the shafts can be possibley calculated by investigators and scientists that have access to computer simulators that can put in all the proper parameters and specifications to approximate the amounts. Unfortunately I do not have access nor the funds for it. Plus I have no clue how to run those darn things anyways.

However, after reading the accounts of survivors and firefighters, they all did mention fireballs coming down the shafts and getting knocked around by the blast wave from it. Fire fighters also mentioned some elevator pits with flaming jet fuel. some witnesses were also doused in jet fuel. So we can assume there was some considerable amount of jet fuel that was unburned that managed to flow down. Once again, I do not know if it was 1 gallon or 100 gallons. Bt to be able to make it down to the bottom, there had to be MORE than 1 gallon for sure.

Another important bit of eyewitness accounts were the effects of the initial impact on the entire building. Many said the whole building was rocking, twisting, shaking, all over causing pipes to burst, beams twist and dislodge, the granite panels dislodging and falling off, the drywall getting knocked off around the core. This suggest some serious structural damage done in the wake of the crash. Combine the impact with the fireballs and there is significant evidence of damage done by those two things alone. This would also account for the "explosions" heard by people inside the towers. But we all MUST remember that not everything that makes a "boom" sound is made by explosive devices alone. Plenty of other non-explosive sources can do the same effects, ie granite panels shattering from the impact, pipes twisting and snapping, beams twisting and snapping, elevators dropping and impacting the floors, elevator machinery falling through the shafts, the steel exterior columns falling, even the pools of jet fuel that caught fire after the event. The eyewitness accounts all show a scene of pure chaos but all show what we would expect from a plane hitting a building. Explosions are ALWAYS heard in home, office, warehouse, car/truck/plane/bus/train fires. Be they small or big explosions. The pressurized oxygen canisters from the plane exploding after being subjected to high temps, anything pressurized in a can, flammable objects, anything.
But jumping to the conclusion that explosives are the causes of the heard "booms" or "explosions" is irresponsible and very misleading, especially before even considering ALL the "non-explosive device" sources as mentioned above.

[edit on 1/9/2009 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by GenRadek
So we can assume there was some considerable amount of jet fuel that was unburned that managed to flow down.

That's a dangerous assumption to make, GenRadek. The first thing that any investigator would know is that they should never assume anything until it has been thoroughly investigated.

Unless a specific quantity, with correct error bounds can be assigned to the word 'considerable', you're better off sticking to your admitted position of "I don't know how much jet fuel flowed down the elevator shafts".

reply to post by tezzajw


Well in that case, duly noted tezz.

I dont think, however, I am not in the wrong to at least consider a larger amount, based on eyewitness testimony from those that were next to or inside the elevator shafts at the time this all happened, am I? Logically speaking, based on the evidence in the testimonies, we can take note this was not a very small amount of jet fuel either. Can we agree on that?

[edit on 1/9/2009 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by GenRadek
Logically speaking, based on the evidence in the testimonies, we can take note this was not a very small amount of jet fuel either. Can we agree on that?

No, I don't agree with that.

I deal with numbers, GenRadek. I don't deal with subjective words to describe quantities. "Considerable" and "not a very small amount" DO NOT quantify any specific amount of alleged jet fuel being in any elevator shafts.

You've admitted that you don't know how much alleged jet fuel was in any particular elevator shaft. That's all I needed you to do. I'm not going to beat a dead horse anymore, as I've repeatedly made my point in my last few posts.

Why are people even still hanging on to the silly notion that jet fuel flowed down elevator shafts?

What is the point of this argument? We have already shown that jet fuel would not have caused the damage to the lobby and basement. So the amount of fuel, or whether there was any at all, is irrelevant.

So what if fuel did flow down elevator shafts? It still doesn't explain how the lobby and basement were damaged.

The debunkers have already admitted it was an explosion that caused the damage, you've all been saying that all along, problem is you wanted the jet fuel to have been the catalyst for that explosion.
But unfortunately jet fuel doesn't explode in open air.

So why is the jet fuel so important to you? It doesn't answer the question of explosions in the basement/lobby? I know, you don't have anything else, but you don't want to question the 'official story' you just want everyone else to fall for it like you did.

Now what's the betting that this will just be ignored, like most other real world physics stuff you guys are clueless about, and the debunkers continue with their silly hypothesis?

So how about you try and research what could have caused the explosion/s, instead of hanging on to that 'official story' like your life depends on it.

Go learn some stuff mate, and get a clue!

Originally posted by ANOK
Why are people even still hanging on to the silly notion that jet fuel flowed down elevator shafts?

Exactly.

Some believers in the official story want to embellish their ideas and claim with waving hands that jet fuel was responsible for most of the internal explosions in the towers. Yet, when pressed on how much alleged jet fuel there was, they come up short of an answer.

Both GenRadek and Seymour made the claim that jet fuel flowed down elevators. Reading their claims, you would think that they were describing Niagra Falls. GenRadek finally admitted that he has no idea how much alleged jet fuel flowed down any elevator shafts. He could not quantify any amount, other than guessing that it was at least 1 gallon, probably more. Seymour didn't even try to support his claim with a response.

It's a classic way of spreading disinformation - make a claim and then fail to support it with any real data. Play on the emotional reports of witnesses to fill in the gaps of real data that would actually help to quantify the claim with some scientific objectivity.

I have considered the conspiracy theories off and on for years. As for the largest part, they are pointless and useless and grossly in error. For all of their theorizing, and supposedly irrefutable evidence nobody has been indicted, they have never obtained to an indictment anywhere on this planet, and they never will. For all practical intents and purposes, their activities are useless.

Is it possible to pump explosive material thru the sprinkler system? Seems like the only way to cover the whole building without much exposure.

reply to post by tezzajw


Maybe if you both would start investigating where were these magic explosives and how powerful they were you would have something. an idea of where they wee located and what were they suppose to do. because by not offering anything else just, "It couldnt of been the jet fuel, so it must have been something else (ie explosives)", then you have substantially more to bring forward.
So I would like to hear what your idea is on what else could have caused it all. Extra credit if either of you can correctly identify how explosives work and why this would have been explosives and definitely NOT jet fuel.

reply to post by GenRadek


So do you actually think that we could/should know where all the devices were placed in those buildings and what they were if they were used, or do you just keep asking because you realize that's information we wouldn't know anyway?

Originally posted by ANOK

1-We have already shown that jet fuel would not have caused the damage to the lobby and basement.

2-The debunkers have already admitted it was an explosion that caused the damage,

1- uhhh, no you haven't. You've made an argument from incredulity, and have relied on that as your only fact.

2-It was deflagrations that caused that damage. Even you admit that deflagrations are possible with jet fuel. But you haven't provided any evidence at all that deflagrations couldn't have caused it.

There is no set range for what overpressures, etc can result from deflagrations, although it can be agreed upon to be on the low side 2-3 psi max.

So start from there and show WHY it couldn't be. Show WHY an overpressure like this couldn't have blown off drywall, marble/granite panels, etc.

Show WHY the rubble, as described by Mike Peccaro, couldn't have been caused by deflagrations: www.chiefengineer.org...

"There was nothing there but rubble, "Mike said. "We're talking about a 50 ton hydraulic press ? gone!"

The two made their way to the parking garage, but found that it, too, was gone. "There were no walls, there was rubble on the floor, and you can't see anything" he said.


Arguments from incredulity mean nothing........

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
1- uhhh, no you haven't. You've made an argument from incredulity, and have relied on that as your only fact.

Seymour, welcome back.

You've lost track of the thread. GenRadek admitted that he hasn't got a clue how much alleged jet fuel flowed down any elevator shafts. He's conceeding the claim, so it looks like you're on your own if you continue to push it.

The only claim from incredulity is your's. You made a claim and you could not prove it. That's incredulous.

Originally posted by GenRadek
So I would like to hear what your idea is on what else could have caused it all. Extra credit if either of you can correctly identify how explosives work and why this would have been explosives and definitely NOT jet fuel.

I don't know what caused all of the explosions in the towers, GenRadek. I wasn't paid to investigate. The investigation that we had was a sham. There was not enough forensic testing done to determine the possible causes for the explosions. Convenient, huh?

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
1- uhhh, no you haven't.

uhhh, yes I have, you do have a short memory don't you?

2-It was deflagrations that caused that damage. Even you admit that deflagrations are possible with jet fuel. But you haven't provided any evidence at all that deflagrations couldn't have caused it.

OK prove to me a deflagration could have caused that damage.

It was me who admited it was a deflagration? It was me who PROVED TO YOU it was deflagration, not an explosion.
I love the way to try to twist things seymour, but you're no where mear smart enough to carry it off.

Your argument has always been that explosions in the basement were caused by jet fuel running down elevator shafts and igniting. Now that it has been shown that jet fuel wouldn't explode in open air, you want to change it to a deflagration that caused all that damage. And then you try to claim I admitted to it, as if it was you who bought up the idea in the first place.

I only allowed the deflagration though for the sake of argument, I don't believe jet fuel pouring down shafts is going to just ignite in open air. You can try this at home, get some diesel or kerosene and try to ignite it while pouring. I'd love to see your results.

But deflagrations have no explosive blast wave to destroy anything as solid as a 50 ton press (that weighs 500lbs). I don't have to show you anything, I know this from personal experience and knowledge of basic physics.

You have to prove that a deflagration could be responsible for the explosions in the basement, which you can't do because a deflagration is not an explosion.

reply to post by GenRadek


Hey, do you know why Chapman killed John Lennon?

In an investigation the why's, or how's, don't always become clear until after the case has been solved, and sometimes not at all.

The physical evidence points to explosions in the basement, not knowing why, or by what, doesn't change that fact.