If Obama is elected, can we finally get rid of Affirmative Action?

Originally posted by Shadowflux

If Obama wins the election I don't want to hear ONE WORD about affirmative action, racism, inequality or anything about the "White man" oppressing the "Black man" as it is obviously no longer true.

I don't follow.

Somehow Obama becoming POTUS erases all forms of racism and oppression against blacks?...

Well. Since he just won. I guess we will see if what you state comes true

If it does, then we should elect a gay POTUS next, to completely erase homophobia and religious prosecution.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

I don't think its going to happen in the next four years. I do think it might be possible AFTER Obama has "had his fun" at the wheel.


No, it doesn't erase all forms of racism. But, does having Affirmative Action in place contribute to it? I think it does.

Ever been interviewed for a job that you were qualified for, only to have the interviewer tell you that they were really looking to hire a minority? Then you tell them you are a registered Cree Indian even though you checked the "Caucasian" box? Then he tells you that you're hired? I have. (Yes, I told them to forget it, I was no longer interested). This REALLY did happen to me years ago in Spokane, WA. This single incident opened my eyes. I've seen it twice since, but not so blatantly.

As for a "gay" President? If their policies, values, and experience were in the best interest of this country, sure! But, are you going to tell me that I am not allowed to bring up the fact that the values a "gay" person has do not coincide with mine? That would preclude me from voting for them. It does NOT mean I don't accept gays.

You probably wouldn't support a "religious zealot" as your President. You wouldn't vote for him (more than likely) because of this. Welcome to the other end of the spectrum. You cannot force your values on me no more than I could impose mine upon yours. We both have that right and that is what makes this country what it is.

Affirmative Action in THIS DAY AND AGE is WRONG!!

Political Correctness hopefully goes the same way.

PS: How'd that poll-worker thing go?

[edit on 5-11-2008 by CreeWolf]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


It means that "black" people are no longer impeded by their race, that there is no "vast white conspiracy to keep the black man down". If a black man can become president than how are they to say that they are so oppressed?

Look at how many white people voted for Obama, they didin't vote for him because he was black, they voted based on the merit of his promises and plans, that to me sounds a lot like we don't have this complete racist overtone that many of the radical black groups like to proclaim we do.

The era of black oppression in America IS OVER! So I don't want to hear about it anymore.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy


The problem is that by doing so it breeds and fosters inequality as well. Qualified and deserving people are often enough denied what they would have otherwise not have been, because they were required to give it to another person solely because of Affirmative Action. That's just one quick example I could give.

First and foremost, I believe the best thing we can do for Equality is to directly support equal civil rights and opportunities for every citizen. Any other approach is a bandaid on an open wound. imho.

I understand and agree with what you are saying, but do you have any ideas as to how equality would be guaranteed if affirmative action were to be abolished?

Unfortunately, racism does still exist, and to completely do away with all affirmative action programs, imo, would give employers who do have a problem with a persons race carte blanche to hire accordingly.

reply to post by chickenshoes


You're assuming that all employers are both white and racist. Racism and inequality goes both ways. If you ask me it is grossly unequal to give special preference to one race over the other even if it is in the guise of doing good.

And what of racist non-whites? I find it hard to believe you've never run into a racist black man before. I can't even count how many businesses around here do not employ ONE white person, or how many times I've walked into a store that is rarely frequented by a white man only to receive dirty looks and be followed around by security guards.

So far, all affirmative action has done is give carte blanche to discriminate against white people.

reply to post by Shadowflux


No, I'm certainly not assuming that all employers are[edit- both] white and racist.

But, there are still some out there, believe me, I know.

I don't think the system is by any means perfect. I understand why it's there, but the implementation is a big problem that does lead to reverse discrimination. What I was asking of Lucid Lunacy was how can it be improved?

[edit on 11/5/2008 by chickenshoes]

[edit on 11/5/2008 by chickenshoes]

[edit on 11/5/2008 by chickenshoes]

reply to post by chickenshoes


I'd certainly like to hear about your experience with "racist white employers". A lot of what seems to happen nowadays is the black man taking personal shortcomings, under-qualifying for a job, or ANY criticism whatsoever by a non-black and atttributing it to him being black.

Did you read my post above? Its curious how you had nothing to say about my experience. Why?

[edit on 5-11-2008 by CreeWolf]

Originally posted by CreeWolf
reply to post by chickenshoes

 

I'd certainly like to hear about your experience with "racist white employers". A lot of what seems to happen nowadays is the black man taking personal shortcomings, under-qualifying for a job, or ANY criticism whatsoever by a non-black and atttributing it to him being black.

Did you read my post above? Its curious how you had nothing to say about my experience. Why?

[edit on 5-11-2008 by CreeWolf]

Well, first of all,lest my avatar confuse people, I'm not a black man, I'm a white woman. It was just a funny, kind of silly avatar I found and liked.

And my experience with racist white employers goes back to when I was working as a kennel manager and vet tech at a boarding facility and animal hospital. I and the owner of the business, who was what you could refer to as an "old coot" went round and round over a black man I had hired to work in the kennel. He really was the target of scrutiny by this man, and the guy really did work very hard. I truly appreciated his contribution, however my decision to hire him engendered the business owners hatred towards me and the other employee. Whether his employment was to continue or not was rendered moot due to the fact that the employee was called back into military duty.

Also, even though I'm not black, I do have, I guess, a creole look about me, with black, very curly hair, darkish skin and dark eyes, which prompted him to continually question my heritage, whether my dad was black, asking me what's my race, he even asked me one time if I could read. Really crass guy.


Granted, it didn't cause anyone that I know of to not be hired, or to lose their job, but it sure made life less pleasant.

My reason for relating this experience is to underscore, that contrary to what you may believe, racism does still exist in the USA, some areas are worse, some are better.

There are at least 2 acquaintances of mine who are definitely racist in their beliefs. One, in fact, attends white pride meetings on a regular basis, and openly airs his disdain for black people and Jewish people. The other often goes into long diatribes about black people, Jewish people and Arabs. He also owns a small business, and I'm pretty sure he'd discriminate based on race.

Please don't misunderstand me, I do believe in everyone being hired on merit and not based on a coincidence of who your parents happen to be. In a perfect world, this should be the case, but until that time, I do think we need something in place to prevent cases of any kind of discrimination.

Yes, affirmative action as it stands now seems often to exacerbate the hatreds that it is meant to alleviate and give minorities a scapegoat for their shortcomings, as well as leading to reverse discrimination, as your experience pointed out.

That's why I say it's not perfect and needs to be changed, I just don't know how.

Originally posted by ORIPEIA


I hope you didn't let them know that you were female when you checked the "white box" as AA also is in place to help woman. Furthermore, I wonder if you couldn't pass for "white", would you be so inclined to take issue with AA?

Interesting you would put it that way, as if White people are default expendable trade off race having suffered nothing at all.

Ill tell you what AA does is reminds us that we continue to extol mediocrity in lieu of excellence, to the detriment of our entire society where the lives of those that have sacrificed have had better performance ratings better grade point averages etc,. are summarily DISCRIMINATED against with I will INSIST is nothing less than unconscious but extreme prejudice nevertheless. It isn't right , it degrades our overall standing in the world of Academics especially in the Math and Sciences. for top level jobs and for the working class let me just say it like it is at that level,

If you are white your chances of getting a Job in many areas of Government are slim to none and in my State you don't have a prayer much less a chance in hell getting a Job.

AA has ALWAYS been a BAD Idea PERIOD!

I would think Blacks having been discriminated against by virtue of their skin color would understand that it does not solve their problem as a race by having state and local Governments holding Government mandated lottery that ostracize WHITES and in many cases MORE Qualified White people in favor of a less qualified person predicated on the existence of the very disease AA is said to be diminishing.

I find AA the most Repugnant form of State sanctioned and endorsed unconscious bigotry of the most singled out race in this category of legalized state racism and discrimination.

Someone mentioned "reverse discrimination, and I think that too is a misnomer, THIS IS RACE DISCRIMINATION and if you don't think it happens to whites, fat people, skinny people, short people, Bald guys, Ugly people ( and ugly people know who you are ) Handi cap people, Poor people, Gay People, Christians, Atheists, Homeless people etc., then YOU need to spend a week in a FAT costume, or among the homeless or try wearing some horned rim coke bottle lens glasses and a good set of realistic looking buck teeth and tell me those people don't get discriminated against and in many cases, even worse and by those who should know better, like Blacks who I have seen guilty not only of prejudice based on Race, Gender etc but an even more repulsive kind of prejudice emerges in societies where certain peoples are given a break due to some so called factor of discrimination and in contrast of an assumed moral debt owed them in some globally generated guilt complex of our own, we allow them double standards that not only discriminate but do it in open view having an assumed licence to do it and latitude to do it on a grand scale.

AA only reminds us that some white girl or guy chosen by the powers that be that THERE Dreams, There future There ideals, are sacrificed for the greater good in the Black Community to make it fair for them.

Did you catch that?

I used the word "Them" when this is totally wrong as it is INDIVIDUALS who ultimately pay the price for their failures and Success and suffer the indignity and unfairness of this primitive band aid to Racial Discrimination using the most utterly ridiculous postulate for leveling the field by thinking you can legislate attitudes.

The result is that a Black calls other Blacks the "n" word as cavalier as whites call other whites "Dude". The reverse is WHITE people cant say that to them, they take it as an insult as they should but a term of endearment when it is said and the person is Black. I don't buy into this logical fallacy I call "The Good ole Boy effect" The fact is they call their woman "Bitches" 'Ho's" more than they ever hear their own first name in some circles. This same double standard is seen by us unfair but by them as if they are entitled to it because as everyone knows, White people never get discriminated against. Well that all depends on whether you are competing with a Black person for the same slot on a Government Job or acceptance to a university.

We see it manifested in blatant constructs of racialism (not racism) where we have the Miss Black America and The United Negro College Fund or the Black Caucus etc. Yet these are people who want to make race a NON issue when it is used in any other manner than to promote their own racialism and racial cultural interests.

This was spawned by AA and if AA were about all levels of Government then it would have to be used in the same manner to choose a President.

Oh? But wait that is only ONE Job! for ONE Person!

SO?

So ???

Why not give Obama a chance?

NO! No way no how ! and it is for this reason that Obama will never have to doubt, ever again that his skin color was so much a handicap to getting the most coveted most powerful position in the land, that he has to wonder if he really earned it or was he just the token black guy this time to satisfy compliance with AA.

No what Obama did was DENY Ignorance like that and went AT the people everyone else including Blacks like Jessie and sharpie, thought didn't have the capacity to see past his color and hear his message being inspired by it so much that he beat out a more qualified WHITE guy with more tenure more experience and he did it without AA, in a job where it is OBVIOUS someone gets runner up and zip.

He did it because he DENIED the idea that such things like AA are needed as THAT belief gives that type of fear and doubt, POWER in addition to not giving a white majority the benefit of the doubt that WE CAN transcend racial issues because they are OLD and TIRED and anymore when someone says I didn't like Obama because I am a racist, IT IS THAT kind of manipulative cheap shot that not only comes from racism but they are totally unaware of it in themselves.

You won't ever see prejudices eliminated from the planet but Cree's thread says more about how AA will backfire if we don't get rid of it NOW because I sense in his post the same resentment and anger that continues to pigeon hole us into this typical white guy run world moreover I sense that like me,, Cree is just plane tired of hearing about it when he knows it is BUNK whenever we hear the "race card" used. It is a card like AA that shouold be missing from the deck Never to be played again. So when you see it played ,,

Call their bluff

[edit on 5-11-2008 by MAINTAL]

reply to post by MAINTAL


I thankyou for bringing out some of the points I was hoping to get people to consider!

Give up affirmative action??? No way! That would mean the Rev - Reverand Jack - son and Al Sharpton would be out of business!

Then again, maybe they could get a job teaching Ebonics.

reply to post by chickenshoes


Thankyou chickenshoes for sharing your experiences with me. I'm sorry there are still a few people like that out there. But, you don't have to tolerate it. Eventually, that boss is going to realize that his ignorant way of thinking is obsolete. As for the black man you hired, I'm glad he worked hard and let the crap roll off his back. This is what people need to do. If this boss held you in disdain because you hired the wrong skin color, you could have told him where to shove his job.

Capitalism will take care of this. If you run a lemonade stand in Harlem and you are white with a "I LOVE THE KKK" t-shirt on, you aren't going to stay in business very long. On the other hand, if you are black and trying to sell "Black Panther" t-shirts at a country music concert, you aren't going to do too well either!

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Whether AA exists or not, strctural elements do exist in many of our country's institutions and organizations that make it impossible for certain people to get anywhere BECAUSE of their race.

Yep, and gender as well.

Now that Obama is in office though, I know his position will lead to more discussions on race and I hope they are open, productive, and do not degenerate into finger pointing.

Affirmative action certainly has it's flaws yet issues such as legacy policies or other less visible "good ole boy" hiring practices that studies seem to bring to light are all but ignored. It doesn't matter how many studies show how biased hiring practices are in the States people will still focus on the ineffective "affirmative action" as an incendiary issue in terms of equal employment.

Like everything else done by humans, the hiring process has been historically biased. This has not changed, it is just not as open or flagrant as before. I personally don't see any lasting affects from affirmative action on the African-American community.

QUESTION:
Does anyone know the current unemployment rate for African-Americans in the States?

At last count it increased to TWICE that of whites, while their unemployment rate remained the same at a low 5%.

While the overall unemployment rate was unchanged last month, African American unemployment rose from 10.6% to 11.4%, driven by an increase among black men from 11.2% in August to 12.9% in September (the rate for black men is more than twice that of white men (5.9%)). As is often the case in a recession, black joblessness is rising much more quickly than that of the overall workforce. Economic Policy Institute

So with the amazingly powerful affirmative action in place shouldn't they all be CEO's or something by now?

Shouldn't non-black unemployment be higher by comparison?

Are there any numbers showing any dramatic improvement in African American employment since it's inception?

Nope.

We have nothing to fear from affirmative action and a lot of people are simply using it for divisive purposes or a focal point for their own economic hardships. Affirmative action is actually useless and a non-issue.

Unless someone has something to show to the contrary, for all intents and purposes it's already dead.

- Lee

Originally posted by Shadowflux
It means that "black" people are no longer impeded by their race, that there is no "vast white conspiracy to keep the black man down". If a black man can become president than how are they to say that they are so oppressed?

The entire white race didn't vote for Obama, you do realize this correct?

There are quite a few videos now in threads here that have some expressing that his race was the reason why. They are very blunt in fact.

By your logic though, when former slave Hiram Revels became the first Black senator in 1870, which was a major accomplishment at the time, racism should have disappeared from the States then and there. Everything should have been equal from then on.

Was it?

Obama becoming President certainly shows steps forward being made, but not the abolishment of all forms of racism and discrimination in the United States of America forever.

That is just absurd.

There is no position of power for a minority to attain that can instantly erase racism from anyones mind nor dissolve all discriminatory practices that continue to take place. Such things depend on the evolution of the individual and is a process not a quick fix.

It is far from being that simple.

- Lee

The absurdity of this thread is that Obama is NOT a black man, he is of mixed origin, not black, not white.

If Barack Obama is the first "black" president (which i constantly hear all around) then last weekend we had our first "black" Formula 1 champion (Lewis Hamilton)But, guesss what.....

I've not heard a single soul utter anything even remotely "black" about Hamilton, but somehow Barack Obama is a "black" president....while they have the same complexion of skin....

I swear i've seen more then 100 facebook statusses this week with
"OMG a frikkin n*gger leads my country now!!!! aaaargh "

It's so pathetic...

Double standards much ?

Originally posted by CreeWolf
reply to post by chickenshoes

 

Thankyou chickenshoes for sharing your experiences with me. I'm sorry there are still a few people like that out there. But, you don't have to tolerate it. Eventually, that boss is going to realize that his ignorant way of thinking is obsolete. As for the black man you hired, I'm glad he worked hard and let the crap roll off his back. This is what people need to do. If this boss held you in disdain because you hired the wrong skin color, you could have told him where to shove his job.

Capitalism will take care of this. If you run a lemonade stand in Harlem and you are white with a "I LOVE THE KKK" t-shirt on, you aren't going to stay in business very long. On the other hand, if you are black and trying to sell "Black Panther" t-shirts at a country music concert, you aren't going to do too well either!

Well, actually, I felt at the time I had to tolerate it as it was the highest paying job I'd ever had up to that point, and my insurance was through that job as well. Plus, all my pet's care was provided at cost of materials, a very important thing when you have pets.

I have faith that that crass old man's good ole boy attitude will die out, I just don't know when. When I see people younger than me extolling the virtues of the KKK, I have to wonder.

And, your capitalism will take care of this statement I don't quite understand. Are you saying that white people should work for white and black people for black, etc? As for selling products geared to certain markets, well, ok, but, not every job is in retail sales or is geared towards a certain type of person. In my case, the veterinary field encompasses a wide range of peoples of different races and socioeconomic positions, in jobs and clientele.

reply to post by XyZeR


You live in Europa, right?

In the United States we have this weird thing called the "One Drop Rule" a form of hypodescent, which means anyone with African ancestry is "Black". Of course the fact that Obama is half "White", was raised by "White" people in Hawaii, and only met he's Kenyan father once is not something Americans or Obamabots want to focus on.

The Black Obamabots like him because he's in a endogamous relationship (he married a Black woman) and identifies as a "Black" man with a "White" mother. He also looks like the multi-generational mulattoes in America who are defined as racially/genetically Black.

There's a big difference between your average Black American who comes from a line of disenfranchised slaves who have gone through generations of mental and physical oppression vs. a man who was raised by and is half genetically European and half "free" African.

If a man with more of a African phenotype of genotype from a Spanish speaking country, say like Sammy Sosa or Orlando (El Duque) Hernández was elected president, they would not be called the first Black president, in genotype and phenotype they are more "Black" than Barack Obama, but they would be called "Hispanic".

This is because the ODR does not exist in Latin America or anyone else except in the USA. The mere fact that we have to ignore the genetic and cultural reality of Barack Obama, the fact that he had to choose an identity to fit into, shows that America has not dealt with the reality of race.

Affirmative action or not, we have race problems in this country that deal with notions of White genetic purity and Black genetic inferiority. That's the real unspoken issue, what makes a Black man or those with with "Black" genetics innately different from those with "White" genetics?

reply to post by CreeWolf
[more

Affirmative action will get even more out of control.The race card will be a trump card for the black race.
Paul

reply to post by CreeWolf


I just wish it applied to age also. You HAVE to give the year you graduated high school. If you lie your out the job, if you tell the truth you do not get an interview, and the " Age Discrimination law" Requires it on job applications! That law has all sorts of loopholes, it seem to be written to allow employers to discriminate and not to protect older workers. If you are over forty five lose your job you can NOT get another easily. Once you are out of work six months you are "unemployable" not counted on the government unemployment stats or get any interviews.

You know two problems really exist on this topic and both I get kind of extreme about. First is the FACT that the MEDIA is always, always, ALWAYS bringing up something about the color issue. It's very rarely just about some woman or some guy or some kid. It usually starts out with a (color) man/woman/child this that or some other thing. Second, if you think that there's no real hiring based on color, sex, race etc, then you need to do more research. THere's an abundant amount of information out there that proves that there's separate civil service tests for different colors as well as mandates that there has to be a certain percentage of employees hired that are what???? the politically correct term is MINORITIES. To me, a job should be given to the BEST QUALIFIED job candidate period. I don't care what color they are or what sex they are. It's not about just Joe or Mary Schmoe out there for every job. many jobs require specialized skills that only pre-educated or trained people can fill. Of course the criminals at that well known civil liberties union that, I will add would like nothing more than to tear up our Constitution and replace it with thier own version all in the name of affirmative action which is a cause of lingering racism. I leave you with this. If it's illegal to FIRE someone based on their skin color, how can we HIRE someone based on their skin color?