We have to RAISE taxes!!

As a Conservative I hate to say this but we do.

Why? Because the last 8 years Bush and the Congress didn't pay for anything and that's why we have a debt over 10 trillion dollars.

Bush is a pseudo-conservative who did nothing to control spending.

He gave out 12 vetos vs Reagan 78 and even Clinton 37. Bush borrowed more money from foreign governments than the 42 Presidents before him combined in his first four years.

So all the Joe the plumbers out there crying about taxes has to understand that somebody has to pay for the last 8 years. We are tapped out and if McCain wants to stay in Iraq that's 10 billion a month we have to borrow.

We have a 13 trillion dollar GDP and the debt clock can't even contain our debt it's growing so fast.

You have to "spread the wealth" when the top 1% has more wealth than the bottom 50% and we are 10 trillion dollars in the hole.

When you raise the tax rate on people making 250,000 dollars and more and then give a tax cut to the bottom 95% this will keep the economy going while we pay some bills and ease up the debt.

I have to go with Obama on taxes because nothing was paid for the last 8 years.

McCain has alot of programs and he wants to stay in Iraq and he will keep borrowing us into oblivion.

See, the republicans today don't realize that there's 2 parts to cutting taxes. First you cut taxes but then you have to control spending or your just borrowing and spending.

It's like going to Best Buy with the America Express and buying up the store and then spending through your savings. You will go bankrupt because nothing is being paid for.

So yes, we have to spread the wealth when the gap between rich and poor is getting bigger under a 10 trillion dollar debt.

Okay, you start paying more first. We'll follow.

Ive seen a couple economic analyst say a move like this would only hurt.

Less money in peoples pockets = less spending = weaker turnout per quarter. I of course cant explain it in detail, but the move would have probably worked had it been 2 years ago.

Personally im not against raising taxes. I don't mind making the sacrifice for my country. Americans have turned into spoiled, rotten, greedy people.

[edit on 10/18/2008 by AndrewTB]

Great post!

It takes guts to come out and say something so obviously unpopular. It shows that you care more about the country than yourself!

YES, we need to raise taxes. Its sad, but its true.

You get a star and flag my friend.

I'd be prepared for some significant flamage though lol...

Here are a few links to help you defend yourself

bellaciao.org...

www.nowpublic.com... -- A statement from the past... watch close or it will be our future.

We've been warned...

I'm just afraid it might be too late.






[edit on 18-10-2008 by nj2day]

Originally posted by 1011010110
Okay, you start paying more first. We'll follow.

I will gladly pay more so my children and grandchildren will not be born as debt slaves.

At some point we have to pay the bills. We are 10 trillion plus in the hole. This means we have not paid for anything these last 8 years.

We have to raise taxes and pay our bills as a country. We can't borrow any more.

I don't mind paying more taxes to come out ahead as a nation. What I do have a problem with is when government increases my taxes in order to sen it to the lower quadrant. A lower quadrant that is already receiving more help than any other American could ever dream of. I also don't like it when politicians flat out misrepresent their tax policies for vote. Looking at the financial mess, there is no doubt taxes have to be raised unless Congress is willing to do it's job correctly. This means Congress has to say no to the President. People tend to forget that Congress holds the strings to the purse.Congress has to cut out its goodies. They have to quit writing in tax breaks for rich people like themselves. They need to understand that the American taxpayers are not an endless money pit where they can get money anytime they want. Fiscal responsibility is a must.

Originally posted by nj2day
Great post!

It takes guts to come out and say something so obviously unpopular. It shows that you care more about the country than yourself!

YES, we need to raise taxes. Its sad, but its true.

You get a star and flag my friend.

I'd be prepared for some significant flamage though lol...

Here are a few links to help you defend yourself

bellaciao.org...

www.nowpublic.com... -- A statement from the past... watch close or it will be our future.

We've been warned...

I'm just afraid it might be too late.






[edit on 18-10-2008 by nj2day]

Thanks for the links.

It's sad that people get caught up in buzzwords like redistribution of wealth and socialism but it's okay to borrow us into oblivion.

Well, let's go to a non-partisan organization, FactCheck, and see what THEY say about Obama's tax proposals:
First about that 95% getting tax cuts- WRONG!:
www.factcheck.org...

He(Obama) said McCain would fail to lower taxes for 100 million Americans while his own plan would cut taxes for 95 percent of “working” families. But an independent analysis puts the number who would see no benefit from McCain’s plan at 66 million and finds that Obama’s plan would benefit 81 percent of all households when retirees and those without children are figured in.

Now about seniors and Obama's plan. Here is what FactCheck found:

We'd also note that retirees would fare quite a bit less well than working families under Obama's tax plan: The TPC estimates that 32 percent of households with a person over age 65 would see a tax increase.

Obama also claimed:

Obama: Now, many of these plans will cost money, which is why I’ve laid out how I’ll pay for every dime – by closing corporate loopholes and tax havens that don’t help America grow.

Well, here is what FactCheck found:

This is misleading. Even by his own campaign’s estimates, closing corporate loopholes and tax havens won’t pay for all of Obama’s new plans. In July, the campaign told the Los Angeles Times that they estimate the yearly cost of their proposed tax cuts at $130 billion. They put revenue from closing tax loopholes at just $80 billion. Obama also proposes to raise taxes to pre-Bush levels for families earning more than $250,000 a year and singles making more than $200,000, yielding additional revenue. But he didn't mention that in his speech.

in addition, FactCheck says:

But Obama’s claim is misleading on another level. According to the nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, "without substantial cuts in government spending" Obama’s plan – and McCain's, too – "would substantially increase the national debt over the next ten years."

Then there is this from FactCheck:

Obama also pulled some sleight of hand when he stated that "the average American family" saw its income "go down $2,000" under George Bush. That's not correct. Census figures show average family income went down $348.
As it turns out, when Obama said "average family income," he didn't mean "average," and he didn't mean "family," either. An Obama aide says he was really referring to median income – which is the midpoint – and not to the average. And Obama was talking only about "working families," not retired couples.

For all families, median family income actually inched up under Bush by $272.

Isn't it amazing how things change when you look at the FACTS. But don't worry, Obama fans, because the MSM isn't reporting this anyway. Why should a ROCK Star have to worry about FACTS, when he has such adoring fans that don't care about facts. Yes, Obama will probably win the election. i would wager you though, that four years from now, the majority will be talking about Obama the way you talk about Bush today. Never happen? Wait and see. I've lived through too many elections to be fooled by fools.

Originally posted by Wise Dome

Originally posted by 1011010110
Okay, you start paying more first. We'll follow.

I will gladly pay more so my children and grandchildren will not be born as debt slaves.

At some point we have to pay the bills. We are 10 trillion plus in the hole. This means we have not paid for anything these last 8 years.

We have to raise taxes and pay our bills as a country. We can't borrow any more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, socialize bail-outs for the rich, free market capitalism for the poor. Boohoo. When will people realize it's not taxes that's the problem. It's the dictatorship of this financial system we've been born into: artificial bubbles created by a private federal reserve system that then loans us our money at interest. Raising taxes won't fix this problem. The system is designed so that there will never be enough money supply to pay the debt off, and we'll always have to borrow from the system to pay off next month's payment.

This is simply more problem-reaction-solution by false hegalian dialectic. It's the same crap ushered by the same propagandists who said we had to pass the bail-out or else! Well guess what...it didn't work, and raising taxes won't work either. Your kids will still owe money, your grandkids will still owe money, and your great grandkids will still owe money...so long as these dictators continue to charge us interest on our money while limiting the money supply.

You clearly have no basic understanding of economics, and for your ignorance, you want everyone else to pay.

I don't think raising taxes is the answer. What I do think the answer is though is cutting spending and going to a different tax system all together. Right now the federal budget is 1.2 Trillion dollars. Out of all the government programs 28% of those are ineffective. 28% of 1.2 trillion is 336 billion dollars.

Our representatives get paid 6 figures, on top of that most are already millionaires before they even get to office. On top of all that we pay for their entourages, and the houses they live in while they are in office. Then they don't even work a full year.

I say we cut the federal budget by at least 40% and implement a fair tax. I am hard pressed to give the government anymore money when they have not proven themselves to be fiscally responsible.

I have heard Bernanke earlier this year testifying before congress saying that prolonged periods of tax cuts, coupled with out of control spending was not a good idea.

Other economists have all said the same thing so it is no secret, if the republicans were spending conservatively it could be possible for short periods of time when spending was under control.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Your definately don't realize that we are in a 10 trillion dollar debt. Are debt has gotten so bad that we have to raise taxes.

This is because the last 8 years we have not paid any bills.

brillig.com...

The estimated population of the United States is 304,933,911
so each citizen's share of this debt is $33,905.26.

The National Debt has continued to increase an average of
$3.45 billion per day since September 28, 2007!

We have a 13 trillion dollar GDP.

Where is McCain going to get the money to pay for his plans or to stay in Iraq?

He will have to borrow us into oblivion in order to say he didn't raise taxes.

As a business owner, I would rather make $450,000 instead of $500,000 so my kids and grandkids will not be born as debt slaves because we don't pay our bills as a country.

Any business owner knows he doesn't have to pay taxes on his/her income. They can make a million dollars a year and then pay themselves a $150,000 salary. This means this person will make less than $250,000 when they pay taxes but it's not what their business earned.

The way the US Treasury makes up for this is through borrowing from social security.

So, the poor people that some are complaining about actually keep the nation running because business owners can get around paying taxes on how much there business makes.

Things have gotten worse under Bush because he didn't pay for anything.

I'm all for cutting taxes but you have to control spending.

Bush paid for nothing.

WASHINGTON — George W. Bush, despite all his recent bravado about being an apostle of small government and budget-slashing, is the biggest spending president since Lyndon B. Johnson. In fact, he's arguably an even bigger spender than LBJ.

“He’s a big government guy,” said Stephen Slivinski, the director of budget studies at Cato Institute, a libertarian research group.

The numbers are clear, credible and conclusive, added David Keating, the executive director of the Club for Growth, a budget-watchdog group.

“He’s a big spender,” Keating said. “No question about it.”

When adjusted for inflation, discretionary spending — or budget items that Congress and the president can control, including defense and domestic programs, but not entitlements such as Social Security and Medicare — shot up at an average annual rate of 5.3 percent during Bush’s first six years, Slivinski calculates.

That tops the 4.6 percent annual rate Johnson logged during his 1963-69 presidency. By these standards, Ronald Reagan was a tightwad; discretionary spending grew by only 1.9 percent a year on his watch.

Discretionary spending went up in Bush's first term by 48.5 percent, not adjusted for inflation, more than twice as much as Bill Clinton did (21.6 percent) in two full terms, Slivinski reports.

www.mcclatchydc.com...

We have to raise taxes after Bush because we are tapped out when it comes to borrowing.

The poor actually pays the bills in this country and this is why the Treasury borrows from Social Security.

A person like Steve Jobs can be paid a dollar a year and be worth billions. He only pays capital gains tax and it's ways to get around that with a good accountant.

You can buy bonds based on securities and there will be no capital gains tax because your not selling anything. You can keep moving your money around to avoid capital gains tax.

So we have to raise taxes in this enviroment. We have to pay the bills.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


I have to agree with you on this. More tax money to a corrupt system?
Bush and the Republican congress spent so much borrowed money that it is scary. Obama wants to increase spending through new programs ie: healthcare. Where is all of our money going? Not to infrastructure, that is for sure. Not to education. This is the problem with big government, they can't be restrained by the people.

We have to bite the bullet and cut spending drastically and pay off our bills. This is what the average person does when he gets into debt, tightens the belt.

Our congress MUST be responsible with the money that it already has to be trusted with more.

I like how you put it, social security is being borrowed or actually stolen from, I read somewhere that the average social security check is about half of where it should be based upon old and honest formulas used to calculate payouts.

I think GDP and inflation factor in, any economists feel free to chime in, but since the Government made M3 money a secret we do not have a real grip on inflation and how much money is really in circulation, and therefore any number they wish to supply can be plugged in to manipulate cost of living increases, keeping them as low as possible to avoid paying out what retirees and others should be getting, in other words the government is skimming from everyday Joes social security and quietly not paying out the full benefits due...

[edit on 18-10-2008 by phinubian]

reply to post by phinubian


We cut spending..NOW..and DRASTICALLY. So much is wasted it's almost sickening. We don't need a million different programs. We also don't need such a complicated tax system.

As someone stated earlier...we need to bite the bullet...we just need to stop buying crap and start paying off all of our stinkin bills and credit cards. We are going to have to lose some of the programs we have...but it's necessary. Everything just keeps getting larger...government...taxes...spending programs...cripes!!!!! Stop the freakin madness and lets get our s**t together!!!

Think about how many hours you work each year to pay for taxes?? It's BS for our government to squander so much money.

Your definately don't realize that we are in a 10 trillion dollar debt. Are debt has gotten so bad that we have to raise taxes.

Please, don't patronize me. I know that the US National Debt is 10.3 trillion dollars. My post did not say anything to the contrary. My post did state the facts that Obama is not the answer, and in fact, neither is McCain. My post did state, based upon independent sources, that the debt will actually increase under Obama, based upon his own proposals.
Obama's solution is socialism, pure and simple. Yes, under socialism, your taxes will increase tremendously. Look at Denmark, which is a socialist country, with a marginal tax rate of 72%. Want to buy a car in Denmark? Well, there is a25% Value added tax, and an over the top 180% registration tax, so a $10,000 car would end up costing $32,500.

I am just amazed at how Obama supporters and the MSM have just bought Obama's tax plan without doing some simple math to see that there is no way he can deliver what he says, without MASSIVE tax increases for EVERYONE. The mathematics of his proposals don't add up to what he CLAIMS the results will be. Numbers don't lie, but politicians do, both of the candidates are in that category.

Originally posted by phinubian
I like how you put it, social security is being borrowed or actually stolen from, I read somewhere that the average social security check is about half of where it should be based upon old and honest formulas used to calculate payouts.

I think GDP and inflation factor in, any economists feel free to chime in, but since the Government made M3 money a secret we do not have a real grip on inflation and how much money is really in circulation, and therefore any number they wish to supply can be plugged in to manipulate cost of living increases, keeping them as low as possible to avoid paying out what retirees and others should be getting, in other words the government is skimming from everyday Joes social security and quietly not paying out the full benefits due...

[edit on 18-10-2008 by phinubian]

Exactly, and people with money complain about taxes when there's tons of ways to avoid paying taxes legally.

So, the Treasury borrows from social security. In actuality, poor people should be getting alot more.

The rich know good and well that they can get around taxes with a good accountant.

So paying a little more in taxes to pay the bills that have not been paid in the last 8 years is not too much to ask.

I'm in agreement with quite a few posters here. I'm not working at the moment so technically I don't pay taxes, but if I were working (will be once the youngest is a bit older, if I can find a job) I would gladly pay more if and only if a big chunk of the government's spending was cut. And by big I mean huge, ginormous, astronomic even. The crap the government has been wasting money on needs to come to an end already.

What Obama is saying is, the rich should pay their fair share and then the Treasury would not have to borrow from Social Security and the poor would get more benefits.

If your rich, you know good and well you can avoid paying your fair share in taxes with a good accountant.

If you make a million in your business, you can pay yourself $200,000 and then you have $800,000 dollars to work with. Say your expenses are $400,000 then you have $400,000 to invest and say start a new business, expand your business or put the money into a 30 year bond at 4.3% interest.

In other words, you have options.

Anyone who think taxes are needed or a good thing and that we need to increase them etc has some serious issues.
Taxes are a lie and a con and a scam and strangely enough most people who think they are such great little citizens by paying them have absolutely NO clue about the reality's behind them.