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Originally posted by ipsedixit
I think you are asking a very valid question. (And you know me. I'm no friend of the Bushwhackers.
I'm not trying to trivialize the question you are asking, but there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
First: There was a large explosion of some kind at the Pentagon itself which might have drawn people's attention, no, which very likely did draw most people's attention away from the overflying plane. It would be a rare person who was ideally placed and cool headed enough to take in the entire scene, including the departing plane, after the explosion had occurred.
Second: The proximity of Reagan National Airport and all the comings and goings of aircraft associated with it, may have caused virtually anyone who saw the plane leave to write it off as part of the Reagan traffic.
Third: It is highly likely that anyone who saw something that didn't add up with regard to an overflying aircraft, would just have written it off.
Fourth: The media that most people have access to is simply not reporting the events as recounted by the witnesses that CIT has found.
There are virtually no questions of substance about 9/11 being raised by boob toob media.
When they do raise them, they are treated in debunker like fashion or not followed up on in an investigative sense. I'm sure most ordinary Americans are learning about the 9/11 truth movement through their teenagers.
My two cents worth. You are asking a very valid question though. One which should be followed up with other questions concerning where the alleged overflying plane went when it left the Pentagon grounds. What radar traces might there be of that flight, etc.
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
reply to post by ipsedixit
Great reply ipsedixit.
You covered most of the important reasons why most would have missed the flyover.
Remember, for people on the ground, it would have been a very fast event and they would have been caught by surprise and ended up unclear or confused about what they saw.
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
reply to [url=http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread402827
NOBODY across the river in DC would have a clue at all.
Remember, the Pentagon is in Arlington, not downtown Washington DC.
So you are really over-exaggerating the potential places for people to be able to see the flyover and put it together with the violent event.
Furthermore you need to understand the topography of the area and it seems as though you do not. It's not like it's completely flat ground where you have a clear view of the Pentagon from all over the place.
Most people look at topographical maps or google earth but that is not what it looks like to someone driving on the highways surrounding the building or crossing the river on the 14th street bridge.
Pentagon View Shed Analysis #1
I'm going to take a look at CIT's claim of a "flyover" from a realistic perspective by showing a View Shed analysis of the topography around the Pentagon to demonstrate the visibility of any aircraft flying over the Pentagon from any location in the area.
This analysis is not needed in any way to refute CIT's claims. Numerous individuals have easily refuted all of CIT's claims (despite angry denials to the contrary) here and on other forums. Reheat has done a masterful job right here. I am doing this because it just further illustrates why CIT refuses to deal with evidence and eyewitness reports.
A View Shed Analysis is a common feature of GIS software and is used to determine the optimal placement and height of transmission antennas intended for television, radio, public utility, microwave, phone, and cell phone usage. It's use is intended for hilly or mountainous areas where topography presents obstructions in direct line-of-sight transmissions, or broadest area coverage, between transmitters and receivers.
I've done a View Shed analysis to illustrate a fundamental problem CIT has with its claims that a "flyover" took place - but no such "flyover" has ever been reported.
CIT claims that one eyewitness, one Roosevelt Roberts, stated that he saw a jet fly over the Pentagon and then took a route to the left over the Potomac River, flying south of The Mall. This is the only eyewitness CIT has ever presented to a so-called "flyover" after persistent requests for eyewitnesses for a long time.
CIT now claims that this sole, apparent eyewitness, "proves" that a "flyover" took place in a planned, calculated deception by the "government" to deceive people into believing a passenger jet, American Airlines flight 77, a Boeing 757, hit the Pentagon.
CIT has stated, for the record, that interviews with 13 other "eyewitnesses" have demonstrated conclusively that AA77 flew on the "north side of the Citgo gas station rather than the south side as the government has claimed," thereby flying a route to the Pentagon that, if it had crashed into the Pentagon, would have produced damage entirely inconsistent with the observed damage. (Not insignificantly, each of CIT's 13 eyewitnesses were in a position to see an aircraft approach the Pentagon.)
Therefore, CIT concludes, the observed jet could not have flown into the Pentagon but, consistent with the statements of 14 "eyewitnesses" CIT found, the jet must have flown over the Pentagon to land in parts unknown. Furthermore, CIT claims, a deliberate deception was planned so that, as the jet began its flyover, a pre-planted bomb in the Pentagon, at the intersection of the flight path of the jet, was detonated producing both an explosion and smoke that obscured the view of the 13 apparent eyewitnesses CIT relies on for its claim that a flyover took place.
I have confined my study to the claim that a "flyover" could have taken place without there being eyewitnesses anywhere on the far side of the Pentagon whose views would never have been obscured by the explosion and subsequent smoke column.
Craig Ranke and Aldo Marquis, sole members of CIT, the "Citizens Investigation Team," have declared individually and separately that no other eyewitnesses to a "flyover" are required. They put their sole trust in 13 eyewitnesses whom they readily acknowledge whose views of an actual flyover would have been obscured by the "explosion" and resultant smoke column at the Pentagon. There remains the one eyewitness, Roosevelt Roberts, on whom CIT's entire claim that a "flyover" took place rests.
The observation comes immediately to mind that if a flyover took place whose flight path would take the jet over and within view of a densely populated geographic area as it flew away from the Pentagon - and the explosion that took place - including heavily-travelled freeways and bridges, should there not be eyewitness reports from a wide geographic area on the other side of the Pentagon in which no topographical obstructions existed? CIT has been asked that question repeatedly and the response has either been that those eyewitnesses are not needed or, "do your own investigation."
The topography around Washington includes obvious obstructions of buildings, trees, overpasses, etc., which are not included in this first run. Obviously, a person standing behind trees or buildings obstructing the view toward the Pentagon, or looking in a different direction altogether, isn't going to witness a plane over the Pentagon as an explosion takes place there. That changes, of course, as the plane moves forward, climbs, and turns.
What is the probability that a such "flyover" could take place in a densely populated metropolis, with many drivers on various roads and bridges around the Pentagon, a spectacular explosion and smoke alerting numerous motorists, and unrefuted testimony that a jet was seen approaching and crashing into the Pentagon at high speed?
I am not in a position to calculate such a probability, but I am in a position to define the extent of the geographic area in which a plane over the Pentagon could have been easily seen.
In this view, I have deliberately limited the range to the jet to two miles, a reasonable distance in which an aircraft the size of a 757 would draw attention moving away from the Pentagon after an explosion. Of course, the jet can been easily at a further distance away.
This instantaneous view places the jet at 100 feet above ground level (not above the building itself) over the central courtyard of the Pentagon. The yellow-shaded area shows the geographic areas up to two miles away from that jet in which a person whose eyesight is five feet above the ground could see that jet, given the observation limitations of structures and vegetation outlined above. Any person within the two-mile range not shaded yellow would be unable to see a jet 100 feet above the ground over the Pentagon courtyard. As one can see, these are very few. It should be obvious as the jet moves forward, and climbs, on a flight path away from the Pentagon, the geographical area at a two-mile range expands, opportunity for it to be observed increases, and the number of potential eyewitnesses increases.
It should also be obvious how the potential for drivers on the freeways and bridges, whose positions are changing and whose attention is necessarily on their surroundings, are in an excellent position to see a jet fly away from the Pentagon, many of whom would see the jet in a direct line of sight to the fireball rising from the Pentagon.
Yet there are no such reports.
This View Shed analysis illustrates the tremendous problem CIT has in facing the probability that many numbers of eyewitnesses would most certainly have seen a flyover take place from a large geographic area and that no such reports have ever surfaced. It also illustrates why CIT refuses to look for any such eyewitnesses. We can imagine many drivers stuck in freeway traffic seeing the explosion at the Pentagon, immediately followed by a jet flying fast and climbing from the direction of the Pentagon. Some would reasonably think there is a connection - perhaps the aircraft dropped a bomb.
But the big problem for CIT is a very reasonable situation. These people who would have seen a flyover would wonder why there were no subsequent media reports of a flyover. Would not even a handful contact media outlets, each competing with each other for breaking news, and say, "Wait a minute! There was a jet flying away from the Pentagon right after the explosion!"
Furthermore, CIT's reliance on Roosevelt Roberts' description of the jet's turn to the left over the river actually puts CIT in a no-win position of having a jet visible from a large area.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
You need to understand there are CONSTANTLY low flying planes over the Pentagon every few minutes all day long every day due to Reagan airport.
Originally posted by jthomas
Craig, there is nothing like using the foreshortening of a telephoto lens shot to deceive posters into thinking that jet is flying "over" the Pentagon when it is well beyond the Pentagon
I think that should earn you a warning. But it does demonstrate how low you stoop in trying to deceive Truthers.
Originally posted by Craig Ranke CIT
You need to understand there are CONSTANTLY low flying planes over the Pentagon every few minutes all day long every day due to Reagan airport.
Originally posted by ThroatYogurt
There were several witnesses outside of the "bowl" that would have seen the flyover. This didn't happen.
Those that were able to witness what happened didn't rely on the media. They knew what they saw.
As far as the flight path, on several days during the week, I have a flight path that brings air traffic toward my home. Let me tell you, If a commercial airliner deviates from that flight path, or comes from ANY other direction other than what I am used to, it will grab my attention immediately. Kind of like those guys across the way that work in their tower every day.
Sorry, there was WAY too many people there, and WAY too many things that could have gone wrong.
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