The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

reply to post by Cabaret Voltaire


I know where you're coming from when it comes to the man in the street, etc. But when it comes to international debt, what other choices are there - other than other precious metals and/or real estate?


[edit to add:]

FTSE latest

5051.69 down 87.62 (-1.70%)

[edit on 5/2/10 by pause4thought]

reply to post by pause4thought


I`m not sure if this is the answer you are looking for, but if there were to be a significant enough rush into gold and many more people demanded delivery, we might very well approach the point where there would not be enough physical bullion to deliver.
This would wipe out all the multitudes of other claims on gold, not to mention the derivatives associated with them, and the non-negligible tidal waves it would send through markets, possibly exchanges and clearing houses themselves.

reply to post by pause4thought


Other than pretty women, I suppose real estate is the key. Plus a huge army. So I guess that is why the international elite play the gold game. It's shiny! And the masses of people think it's alright because they saw it on the television.

What else, indeed. We truly are all stuck inside a mass hallucination.

reply to post by Hithe Merinos


Precisely. Can you imagine a scenario where in the midst of a global depression even G8 countries are effectively left with no way of paying for international trade? Apart from anything else, how could global food supplies be maintained, other than perhaps through direct exchange of goods - 21st century bartering!

That's the optimistic scenario. Admittedly pessimists will smell major conflict.



[edit to add:]

reply to post by Cabaret Voltaire


Time to plant a few seeds?


[edit on 5/2/10 by pause4thought]

I suppose if there was a huge rush to physical gold, then we could sell all of our gold to whoever wanted to give us the US dollars for it. We could just take our paper notes back. If we dumped all of the gold we could leave some sucker holding the golden hot potato while the Fed manipulated the interest rate up, bond prices down, and made life in America even more desirable for anybody willing to work instead of sit upon a pile of gold.

I just don't understand the desire for gold, except to play the gold game. And if the US Government stopped playing the gold game it wouldn't matter anyway. Our real estate is so rich in natural resources we could smash anybody. Any country. I believe all countries at once. I really do. We could play the most exclusive game right here in America if we wanted, but we prefer to play the inclusive game so all those outsiders will calm down and stop thinking about killing us. Cold war for a hot lifestyle.

The whole thing is odd. No doubt. Life is odd.

reply to post by Cabaret Voltaire


There's nothing I enjoy more than an original take on an issue. The obvious reply is 'How could you trade what might by that time be virtually worthless for what is internationally accepted as having intrinsic long-term value?'

If I follow your thinking correctly you're talking about withdrawing from the international scene pretty much altogether, and using the well-established infrastructure already in place to rebuild the internal market. And as China et al are so behind in this sphere, the US would easily come out on top in the long-run.

Problem is China's rate of development, even in the field of infrastructure, is (and would continue to be) phenomenal.

There's still a very good case for more of a focus on the home front, though, with perhaps more localised economic alliances becoming key. But that's a logical response. We haven't factored in the love for a booming arms industry...

YAY doom is here! IMO the fear is gaining fast momentum! Now I don't know to invest in what! Precious metals going down, commodities going down, stock market going down, euro going down and i dont want to invest in $US... nor in real estate... I'm screwed.

They should just rise the interest rates to 20% and I would put my money in closed interest accounts... I'm sick of the world being made for those who are living on credit... can those who save be rewarded for once?

Inching towards a trade war

Trade war looms?

The Coming Trade War

Coming Trade Wars, Jobs Preview, Gold $1,500, Jingle Mail and More!

reply to post by Vitchilo

They should just rise the interest rates to 20% and I would put my money in closed interest accounts... I'm sick of the world being made for those who are living on credit... can those who save be rewarded for once?

I think you know very well what the answer to that is. To quote Cabaret's quirky understatement: "Life is odd."

Thanks for the morning papers. Superb reading. There's quite a storm brewing!!

Plenty of questions that need answers, too:


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8d4f35bcdaa6.gif[/atsimg]


(taken from that third article)

Oh, I'm coming back to my old thesis: capital is initiative.

Think about it. You can't really trade with authorities. They can sell gold to you, take your money and then confiscate it all. That's called "initiative" (or capital). In other words - war.

War resets the stage, all the rules if necessary, at least for a while. Then, the "initiative" may start using other tools (justice, democracy, propaganda, etc. - all proven in history).

The situation with China may be very much like this. After American industry has been outsourced to China, and China made a big consumer of oil and other resources, now is the time for technological revolution which will render China's effort obsolete... (That might be good for the good ol' USA). But is it possible? Is there a technological revolution in sight?

Then, they can forbid banks to buy and sell in the Market - now, that would be some revolution! And put things back where they could recover from, perhaps.

Since the worldwide crisis is the crisis of credit, something to be done in that respect would certainly be the revolutionary move.

Resetting credit will be done, in my opinion, but not for all. That is the prerogative of the authorities (initiative) - isn't it? Merciful to some, ruthless, even cruel, to others...

You can think of growing your own food, but Monsanto will enforce laws to prevent that. You can count on it. The monopoly of the authorities is decisive. This means - there will be a revolution, this way or that way. The question is: its concrete form?

More on the trade wars... Now it seems that Russia may be getting on the action too.



Another important thing is that Ukraine is having it's final round of elections on february 7 and Ukraine is almost bankrupt, if something goes bad, and it have big chances of happening... what would happen if Ukraine were to default on it's debts because of internal chaos?

The situation would be even worse....

Here's a detailed ~opinion~ ditty on that Gold question from earlier...and it's not good...

Breakdown Of The Gold Market
www.marketoracle.co.uk...

A great disconnect exists in the gold market between the exchange futures contract price (the paper price) and the gold bullion paid price for transactions (the physical price). The differential in price is growing wider, enough to place tremendous pressure on the gold market itself. Look not to the gold premium paid for purchases, but to high volume purchases in the tens of million$. In mid-December, almost every demand for gold contract delivery was matched by a cash delivery, complete with 25% bonus premium offered. The officials even produced a new ledger item called 'Cash For Delivery' that was necessary to balance their badgered books. It prompted little attention. Some call it a basic bribe. Others call it a technical default.

Fast approaching is the event of GAME OVER for London, a condition that has already reached critical level, according to a key reliable source of information with London connections and direct experience with its market events. How long can a major metals exchange sell contracts but have miniscule supply of gold in their vaulted possession? The paper gold market and the physical gold bullion market have finally separated in a practical manner, meaning actual gold has almost no role anymore in London paper contract settlement. The absence of gold in London requires extraordinary tactics to settle contracts and to obtain gold bullion. Red tape procedures delay delivery for individuals, and bribes accompany gold delivery demands as standard practice. The London Bullion Market Assn has almost zero gold, its supply having been drained in high volumes since early December, a process currently in acceleration. The opportunity to convert fiat money into precious metal at prices considered reasonable is also vanishing. The London gold banker said,

"There is going on a lot more than meets the eye. The physical system is actually consolidating bigtime and is organizing itself with lightning speed, totally hidden from pretty much anyone, even the so-called insiders. The paper precious metal market and the physical precious metal market have defacto disconnected. The paper and physical gold markets currently operate in parallel universes. The outflow of physical metal from bank vaults is happening at a mind bending pace."

Much more at Link...

US Futures are down at 8am est...

Russia 1404.98 -58.03 -3.97% 16:02
Turkey 51338.34 -2125.54 -3.98% 15:01
Greece 1872.62 -79.08 -4.05% 14:46
Portugal 2575.61 -131.50 -4.86% 02/04

International markets in big selloff
money.cnn.com...

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- International stock markets tumbled Friday over concerns about the debt crisis in several European nations.

Global markets plunged across the board. The FTSE in London and the DAX in Frankfurt both fell more than 1% in midday trading amid fears of potential credit defaults by Portugal, Spain and Greece.

Japan's Nikkei index ended nearly 3% lower, while Hong Kong's Hang Seng index tumbled 3.3%.

European debt concerns riled Wall Street on Thursday, dragging down the Dow by 268 points. U.S. futures were down on Friday, indicating that Wall Street could take another hit.

"It all has to do with the meltdown in Europe," said Peter Cardillo, chief market economist for Avalon Partners. "Right now, the market is still traumatized over the debt in Greece, Portugal and Spain, and that's basically what caused the decline."

The big question now, said Cardillo, is how long it will last.

"Will the market be convinced that this is a temporary storm causing a correction, or is this something more long-lasting that will impact the global economy?" he said.

[edit on 2/5/2010 by Hx3_1963]

reply to post by Hx3_1963


This scenario could be what leads to Gold finally zooming up to $2,000+ TOZ
We all remember last summer when we were all talking about the shortages of Gold for actual delivery, while the price stayed the relative to inflation the exact same .. What I am more interested in is.. if the delivery out paces "paper trades" ... who get's left with no gold in their pockets at the end of the day? I'm gunna hazard a guess it's not gunna be the banks, or the major funds .....

reply to post by Hx3_1963

"Will the market be convinced that this is a temporary storm causing a correction, or is this something more long-lasting that will impact the global economy?" he said.

Temporary... storm ... TEMPORARY?? Is this not the same crisis since 2007? WTF. How much schooling do you have to actually have to get these jobs? Seriously.. Half of Europe has been teetering on the edge of financial oblivion for the past 3 years. This SURPRISES people still?

They won't default though.. the EU is prohibited from "bailing out" economies, but individual states (Britain, France, USA, etc etc) can buy Spanish, Greek, Portuguese Tbills so that they can pay their debt. Eventually. Logic says anyways. The whole thing WILL come crashing down .. and I bet my left leg that it would get pushed under the rug and proclaimed "No big deal!" faster than you can say "Show me the money!" (which is ironic... cause there won't be any!)

reply to post by Vitchilo


The question of what China (& Russia) might do with their US treasuries is a real conundrum. The suggestion they might just stay out of the market sounds plausible. The question then becomes 'How much more can the Fed absorb?'



reply to post by Hx3_1963


Thanks, Hx. The first article gets us right up to speed on the fiasco of the gold markets, which is a real elephant in the corner, in no uncertain terms.

As to the second article:

"It all has to do with the meltdown in Europe," said Peter Cardillo, chief market economist for Avalon Partners. "Right now, the market is still traumatized over the debt in Greece, Portugal and Spain, and that's basically what caused the decline."

The big question now, said Cardillo, is how long it will last.

"Will the market be convinced that this is a temporary storm causing a correction, or is this something more long-lasting that will impact the global economy?" he said.

Well, well, well - what have we here? The market starting to realign itself with the real world?!

This is precisely what so many of us have been flagging month after month, is it not? The indices have grown exponentially while the major economies have either stagnated (if you believe the - ahem - m a s s a g e d official figures) or showed increasing signs of major seizure. While some have advocated riding the market as 'it has no real connection to the economy' and have admittedly made short-term gains, everyone else and their mother will now face the consequences of pouring good money after bad.

Things are looking decidedly ugly in Greece, and the reverberations have only just begun. Just wait till the US credit rating gets downgraded...

What a farce of a Job Report...

UE is 9.7% when adding 1.2M to the rolls in last years revision...

More of the numbers show losses in employment and extended benefits...

I want to see KD pick this apart later...should be interesting...

It ~appears~ UK didn't like the report...


London 5038.26 -101.05 -1.97% 13:32

[edit on 2/5/2010 by Hx3_1963]

reply to post by Hx3_1963


I was just wondering .. well no, it's painfully obvious it's sheer lies.. but just wondering HOW we got a .3% DROP in Unemployment with a 20,000k (estimated) job decline?

Last January we lost 740,000 jobs.

We lost 20,000 this January .. just, the amount removed from UE is still outpacing those being added.

I believe we will soon see the golden era 4.2% unemployment.

Without gaining a single job!

But beneath the lies.. the ignorant economics .. and the tools.. we find the truth:

In early 2009, the Obama administration’s economic advisers forecast the $787 billion stimulus plan would keep unemployment below 8 percent.

Oh really? This explains why the Gov can say they produced X amount of jobs in Y amount of time without a shred of proof.. because unemployment is dropping (even if it's .. really not..) and the ignorant masses will eat it up.

STATE OF THE UNION:

Government payrolls decreased by 8,000 in January

While this appears good....

State and local governments reduced employment by 41,000 during the month

Wow.. that is a seriously large number. States and communities are still being deeply impacted, cutting services to bare bones production .. to cut that many in January (when staff is lowest during the year as it is) it shows the poor health of what we see everyday! OUR communities!

while the federal government added 33,000.

TEMPORARY CENSUS WORKERS.

And of course....

The Labor Department today also issued the annual benchmark update showing the economy lost 930,000 more jobs than previously estimated in the 12 months ended March 2009.

Oops we forgot to count a million people..

If they would just admit to our woes.. and let it be.. just tell us the truth .. but no, the lie and treat us like we are stupid. THIS is where the anger comes from.. this is where the malcontent arises.. or are we getting numb to it?

www.bloomberg.com...

reply to post by Hx3_1963


DOW will finish above 10,000 .. letting it close below yesterday was not intended.. as someone on here said a few days ago, I believe DOW 10k is being used as a barrier.. people see DOW 10k+ and think the economy is good.. or getting better.. anything below = second crash coming and people run to remove money they have added to their funds.

reply to post by Hx3_1963


The FTSE is fluctuating wildly as we approach the opening of the Dow:


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c016297c9e50.png[/atsimg]


Latest:

5070.27 down 68.99 (-1.34%)

reply to post by Rockpuck


unemployment drops?



Where did the new jobs come from?

:

I want to see where these jobs are. Ya know some transparency, anyone have a website for this so we can read it?

*UPDATE*

found this link. www.bls.gov...

I guess this the report. It does not really explain the HOW.. But its something..


seems mainly temp work and retail was where the gains in employment were.. Oh thats a healthy job market..

[edit on 5-2-2010 by Bicent76]

reply to post by Rockpuck


Spot more on the unemployment numbers blogs.barrons.com...