Why our Public School System is getting an F

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Well, no disagreement with you here, Prof. Of course by the time I went to college (on my GI Bill), I was in my late 20's and early 30's and responsible for myself.

I think my position is that children need accountability during the K - 12 years so that by the time they enter college they have that "internal locus of control" and enough responsibility, self-discipline, and self-control to manage themselves without too much parental intervention.

A college student shouldn't need parental discipline to get him to study and do his homework, but a 3rd grader does, and many of them aren't getting it. If you see my point.

I have seen over and over again that kids will play adults against each other every chance they get, and even very young kids are often champs at that kind of manipulation. They play parents against each other, grandparents against parents, parents against teachers, and so on. When I was only 4 I was able to drive a wedge between my stepdad's family and my mother that lasted until the day she died. (I'm not proud of that now in spite of the fact that I wasn't lying so much as I was just exaggerating maltreatment a little, but the point is that at 4 years old I was able to do it, and so can other children.)

I'm not saying that you should disbelieve and distrust your kids, but always thinking the teacher is wrong or lying doesn't help matters any either, and that's where I see a lot of parents at - the teacher is the enemy. I also agree that teachers should treat parents as allies and collaborators, but having been a sub. teacher myself I know that can be difficult when you're used to being attacked out of the gate by parents who just know that their precious little angels couldn't possibly have done anything wrong.

it is not the grades it is pure mind control if you don't learn what they teach you, you will get a bad grade but if you learn it you are consider smart.

America is not becoming dumb is the system that is controlling every students life, only the ones that achieve in the subject will progress and the rest would be useless.

Most of the schools don't explain you why you have to learn the material it is just the standards of the school ex: many teachers do not even worry about your intelligence capacity. Their main objective is to teach you what the system wants you to learn.

you have to go with the system or you wont survive

reply to post by Heike

Excellent Points! I've starred your post.
You are absolutely correct that parents need to get at the truth, and not assume that their children are always being truthful about incidents at school, or that the teacher is just "out to get your child". Children learn at a very early age to be manipulative, and it is crucial that parents learn that manipulation, and take appropriate action. In a two-parent family, they will usually learn which parent is the easiest to manipulate, then make it look like a two versus one situation. It's important for spouses, or even ex's to talk about such things, and let the other one know if he/she thinks the other spouse or ex is being manipulated. Usually, one of the two can see the manipulation.

Yes, getting the basis for learning is very important at an early age, and parents or guardians are critical in helping to establish that base.

Again, excellent post.

To ... elaborate on my earlier post, I found this tonight.

I urge EVERYONE to read this: www.wesjones.com...

Time to go to the bookstore for me.

Intelligence is a trait, it's a physical characteristic and description of a biological part of the body. You cannot teach someone how to be intelligent (as in Einstein). You cannot teach someone to have a higher IQ.

[edit on 10/18/08 by Angry Danish]

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

Heike doesn't seem to post a lot, but when she does it's typically a well-thought-out post.

I can't argue with the existence of manipulation as a major player in the problems facing our schools (I do have two manipulative kids myself, and they are both very very good at what they do ). I don't give the manipulation factor over solely to children, however, as I see it as more of a general human trait. After all, have either of you watched politics lately?

In my household, my wife and I have both learned to combat this human trait, by never giving a 'yes' answer outright. For example:

Kid: "Can I spend the night at a friend's house"?
Me: "What does your mother think about it?"
Kid: "She says it's OK."
Me: "It's OK with me if it's OK with your mother."

This has worked out pretty well for us. But it brings up problems when another authority figure, namely a teacher, begins to violate this sharing of power. For an example, I live in a very poor county. Many of the people here do not have Internet access at all (or even a computer), yet my daughter came home at one point saying that her teacher was demanding that reports be researched on the Internet and computer-printed. She needed a new fill of ink (about $60 for both cartridges locally) so she could get her homework finished for the next day. The reason it was out of ink was that she had let her friends use the computer for their work (in some cases even having her friends send their work to her and printing it out for them).

I hit the roof! Not only was this gonna cost me $60 that I hadn't counted on, but it also was gonna make me drive to town in the middle of the night (not a short drive) for one item. I got her ink, but on condition that I wanted a parent-teacher conference. My daughter wasn't too happy about this, but she agreed to tell her teacher to call me.

It took two weeks to get that conference. First, my daughter conveniently 'forgot' to tell her teacher. Then she told me the teacher had said to call her. That was unacceptable because I didn't know when she would be available to take a call, and I didn't want to spend all day calling every few minutes to try and catch her. I was home all day at the time. Finally I got a time to call. I did. She was out.

I told my daughter that evening that I would be calling the principal by 12:00 noon the following day, and the School Board if he wasn't in. That worked. Her teacher called me and was concerned what the 'problem' was. I told her I wanted a conference and it was set up for the next day. She was a very nice lady, and very concerned about her students. I was actually very impressed with her. But she had forgotten one simple thing: parents do not always get the whole story from a child. I found out she had been in trouble with many parents over the whole 'computer/Internet required' thing, and she was confused as to why, because she only required it if the child had the computer at home! She showed me letters she had accepted from other students that allowed them to do research via books and hand-write (legibility was required) their reports, because they didn't have access at home.

We solved the problem. She now sends a short sheet home to be signed and returned by a parent, outlining what she is requiring and why. She has told me she is amazed at how easy her job has become with respect to the parents, all over a simple verified communication. It is hard to manipulate the written word.

That was one success story. But too often, the teachers just seem to ignore communication with the parents. Perhaps it is simple laziness, or perhaps it is some sort of pride thing. But it happens. And when it does, it fosters a feeling of animosity between teacher and parent, rather than a sense of cooperation. The parent hears the teacher is being unreasonable. The teacher hears from the parent when they are angry about this unreasonableness that really doesn't exist, and considers the parents as overbearing. Given the animosity that results, is it any wonder the children will take advantage of a golden opportunity?

I know I am apparently not the norm as a parent, but I also believe more parents would take more interest in their child's school environment if an air of cooperation were forthcoming from the schools themselves. Of course, I am not blaming all the problems on one party (I have met several pretty obnoxious parents in my day, and I'm not even a teacher), but I do see this way that one party can reach out to the other with a gesture.

Communication: it does a school good.

TheRedneck

There we go guys! Personally, I think we've arrived at the real problem and a real solution if only we could get everyone on board.

As a kid I felt that my teachers and parents and school staff were all "ganged up" against me, but in retrospect I understand that it was exactly what I needed: people who understood they were playing on the same team for my best interests and with a goal of fostering my success and learning.

And that, in my humble opinion (and really only re-wording/reiterating what TheRedneck has already said) is what we need today: Teachers and parents realizing that they're on the same team, all playing for the ultimate welfare and success of the children and communicating with each other and working together.

Children, bless their little hearts, are clever, cunning, manipulative, and basically self-interested, and they don't - and can't be expected to - understand what's best for them. A cooperative, collaborative team of adults consisting of parents, teachers, counselors, and school staff is what's needed to stay on top of them, and I think if they achieved this (and somehow got the government test-score types off their backs to boot), it would go a very long way towards solving the problems we all see.

And Prof, I think you would agree that if this were accomplished and children were gotten back on the right track in K - 12, it would lead to the college/university problems mostly solving themselves, because the students would have the skills, basic knowledge, and self-discipline/self-motivation they need to succeed at higher learning.

Okay, Red and Prof, we've solved this one. What problem next needs our attention?
But seriously, if only the parents and teachers and school admin would discuss the problems as we have been doing, trying to understand each other and arrive at consensus, things would get better in the schools rather quickly!

reply to post by Heike

And Prof, I think you would agree that if this were accomplished and children were gotten back on the right track in K - 12, it would lead to the college/university problems mostly solving themselves, because the students would have the skills, basic knowledge, and self-discipline/self-motivation they need to succeed at higher learning.

Okay, Red and Prof, we've solved this one. What problem next needs our attention?
But seriously, if only the parents and teachers and school admin would discuss the problems as we have been doing, trying to understand each other and arrive at consensus, things would get better in the schools rather quickly!

I do agree that it would solve the problem. Good job team, and in the process, I made another friend, Heike.

Now else could we solve? How about trying to figure out how we could restore integrity in the US Government? Or is that Mission Impossible?

You can pontificate all you want about why or how our schools are failing. However it boils down to one simple fact. Our schools are forbidden from teaching the very most important lesson for success in life. Our teachers were also raised in a toxic environment that omits this life's lesson and thus they are not even equipped to teach it.

I shouldn't have to tell you what this is, but most of you don't know so I will. That life's lesson is commonly called values, or if you will basic morality. The funny part about it is that it is virtually impossible to impart morality apart from the Judeo-christian faith. You need to actually believe that there is a deity watching you to whom all your actions are accountable to, to make it work.

If you have values, you have a work ethic, since this is a key aspect of scriptural teaching. (e.g. Let him not eat who does not work). Values would have prevented the recent banking crisis. It was values that gave the early American Puritans a 97% literacy rate, without the so-called blessings of public education. It was required to be able to read the Bible.

It is values that leads one to consider the marvelous workings of God's creation and leads to scientific discoveries. It is a lack of values that is currently suppressing many great discoveries that would have solved many of the world's problems. Our corporate monopolies have a stranglehold on what discoveries are currently allowed because of their greed.

Values are more important than reading writing and arithmetic and they are certainly more important than what passes for education these days. Basically if you know that homosexuality is good, then you pass. The inmates are running the asylum.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus

How about trying to figure out how we could restore integrity in the US Government?

Ummm.

Ummm.

Ummm.

Can we work up to that one with something a bit less ambitious? Like maybe developing cold fusion or solving global poverty?

TheRedneck

reply to post by SevenThunders

You can pontificate all you want about why or how our schools are failing. However it boils down to one simple fact. Our schools are forbidden from teaching the very most important lesson for success in life. Our teachers were also raised in a toxic environment that omits this life's lesson and thus they are not even equipped to teach it.

ou can pontificate all you want about why or how our schools are failing. However it boils down to one simple fact. Our schools are forbidden from teaching the very most important lesson for success in life. Our teachers were also raised in a toxic environment that omits this life's lesson and thus they are not even equipped to teach it.

I shouldn't have to tell you what this is, but most of you don't know so I will. That life's lesson is commonly called values, or if you will basic morality. The funny part about it is that it is virtually impossible to impart morality apart from the Judeo-christian faith. You need to actually believe that there is a deity watching you to whom all your actions are accountable to, to make it work.

O ye, of little faith. Teachers can teach by example. Some of the best lessons I imparted upon my students were my actions and words. By being moral, acting fairly, and treating everyone in a moral fashion, you teach without ever putting chalk to the blackboard, or Power Points on a screen.
The best lessons of life are your actions.

reply to post by SevenThunders

The funny part about it is that it is virtually impossible to impart morality apart from the Judeo-christian faith.

I felt this statement of yours required a separate response.

Do you mean to imply that there is no morality in Islam, or other major religions?
That seems like an arrogant position.
Let me point you to an excerpt of the following Islamic site:
www.whyislam.org...

Islam is a comprehensive way of life and morality is one of the cornerstones Islam. Morality is one of the fundamental sources of a nation's strength, just as immorality is one of the main causes of a nation's decline. Islam has established some universal fundamental rights for humanity as a whole, which are to be observed in all circumstances. To uphold these rights, Islam has provided not only legal safeguards, but also a very effective moral system. Thus, whatever leads to the welfare of the individual or the society is morally good in Islam, and whatever is harmful is morally bad.

I am not Muslim, but I respect their religion, as I have worked extensively with Muslims in the Middle East. I find them to be extremely moral people, and the stereotype of them that seems to permeate some sectors of our population does nothing to contribute to the advancement of peace and understanding in the world today. The Crusades were a dark time in history, and I would have hoped that humanity learned a lesson from them, never to repeat them again. Please tell me where I have gone wrong, because the Muslims that I know treated their family, friends,workers and strangers with utmost and, yes, moral, respect.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


You are a rare man. Most teachers would not see the need for what you are doing. Also it does make it more difficult. It's better to just be able to teach it outright rather than hide it behind the states crazy anti religious bias.

reply to post by TheRedneck

Can we work up to that one with something a bit less ambitious? Like maybe developing cold fusion or solving global poverty

OK, but what will we do tomorrow then?

This link would also be helpful to you regarding the dumbing down agenda that has taken place.

www.youtube.com...

The situation is further supported by business having alternatives to US born employees. IE Green Card ad H1. Corporations deliberately in some cases higher these people because they are told to by their secret society connections. For example both Microsoft and JCPenney hire large numbers of these people in their corporate office. Both companies have owners who are/where associated with the Knights of Malta which is an strong indicator of Vatican controlling influence ie the Illuminati.

I find fault with coaches who make more than teachers just because they can win games. Then I have trouble with coaches who teach subject material but seldom teach the material. It is what students call an easy grade. The other thing I find fault with is the way politicians think money and tests will correct everything. Money is important but when schools are building state of the arts schools and stadiums, makes one wonder how bad they really need money? Tests don't mean much cause the students learn the test and not the basics or the reasons they ought to know the basics. Finally, most of all I blame the parents. Most who just don't care to get informed as to why their child is struggling.

Not so sure if all the posts so far touched upon one other factor of the problem: the Pharmaceutical industry.

I watched this docu called 'the drugging of our children'.

To understand where I'm coming from with my statement I recommend watching it, as well.

It documents how normal, intelligent, active children are drugged into zombies by their teachers, because the school actually gets much money in subsidies for every kid that is on these drugs!

And it expands on the ties with all those school shootings that plague us since Columbine.

Ritalin (sp?) and the like is some evil stuff, and yet parents who refuse to let their children take them have their parental rights stripped away from them and the children end up in a state institution where the state is the only entity responsible for the doses of drugs they administer..

reply to post by prestonposthuma


the plan is to dumb down public so they can do with uneducated people whatever they want

reply to post by jam321

You're right, friend.
My son had a Bachelors degree in History and a Masters Degree, and was a 3.9 GPA student. He tried for 5 years to get a full time teaching job in History or Social Studies. You know what EVERY school asked him- whether he could coach Football or Baseball. He was honest, and said no. In every case, they hired the candidate with coaching experience, even though most DIDN"T EVEN HAVE A DEGREE IN HISTORY.
That just shows you, as you said, where their priorities are.
My son ended up going back to college, and getting a degree in business, and is now working in the business field.
Is it no wonder our school system is a disaster?

reply to post by Phatcat

Ritalin (sp?) and the like is some evil stuff, and yet parents who refuse to let their children take them have their parental rights stripped away from them and the children end up in a state institution where the state is the only entity responsible for the doses of drugs they administer..

Yes, and it is because teachers are too lazy in some cases, to go the extra effort for children with attention problems. Quite honestly, I think that ADD is over diagnosed. I think in some cases, the student is just plain disinterested, because the teacher has not made an effort to find out how to engage the student. I don't deny that there are some that may have true medical disorders, but it is too easy to just diagnose ADD, and then be rid of the problem, pushing the child into a class of other students that he/she may not belong.
In addition, many schools get extra money for ADD children, and it becomes a cash cow to diagnose ADD freely, then reap in the state aid, and basically treat the students like imbeciles, which they are NOT, of course.
It is a disgrace.

Originally posted by prestonposthuma
I agree with you completely. I would agree that Pre-K, Kindergarten and 1st grade is just a daycare. Kids learn the same thing both places. Kids are taught how to share, and that naptime comes after a story. Sad, they should be taught actual knowledge at a young age in order to maximize their potential as human beings.

Not true for all schools/situations. Both my children went to pre-K and Kindergarten, yes they had toys, lots of toys. Remember, children at these ages learn by play, not by showing them flash cards and drilling them on "facts".

A child’s environment has enormous impact on how brain cells get connected or “wired” to each other.

Brain research has shown that too much stress early in life can affect development negatively. Stress and trauma can cause elevated levels of cortisol, a brain chemical, to be released in the brain. This can make the brain vulnerable to processes that destroy brain cells, reduce the number of connections in certain parts of the brain, and cause regions of the brain that regulate emotional response and attachment to be smaller than normal.

Children need simple, hands-on experiences for their brains to develop, such as rolling a ball on the floor, touching a cat or dog, turning the page of a book or reaching to grasp a spoon. These experiences include touching, talking, listening, tasting, smelling, playing, singing, looking and running. All of these varied activities build young children's brains.

These are all activities that are supported in a good pre-k and k class. Fun, enjoyable, stress free activities that create curiosity and an interest in learning.

Another words children need a fun, caring playful environment to "learn" to "learn".

Here is a nice little website that gives some information on the developing brain.

www.umext.maine.edu...

At the ages you are suggesting to "teach children actual knowledge", they should really be developing their brains so that they CAN retain and understand the knowledge that they will be required to learn throughout life.

It is like trying to create a building, without the support system around and under it, eventually the building will fall, and the more you try to build on it, the more it will just fall over.

If you are interested in further information send me an u2u or google children "brain development".