rightwing patriots are liars.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Unfortunately, you felt the need to mention the U.S., elsewise I could have left comment to a Brit.

You start out by saying "right wing patriots are liars", but mention nothing of alleged lies. So far as I can see, you're a commy liar as I haven't crossed the path of the first American chanting "USA! USA!".

Progressive taxation is thievery, but you call stealing "redistribution". Personally, I 'd rather enjoy the fruits of my own labor and allow others to do the same, rather than be a sorry, lazy thief and allow someone else work for my next meal, but that is me, obviously not you.

You aren't concerned about the welfare of your fellow countrymen and you know it. There's only two reasons why someone would be pushing such a system. Either they intend on doing less work as they know the system will pay them the same pitiful pittance no matter what their personal drive is, or they intend on being part of the ruling class, living off the first fruits of others' labor and controlling the people to the point of sending people with my conflicting ideas to the death camps.

I spent my younger days standing between your deadly idea of utopia and the rest of the western world and have earned the right to tell you to screw off.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go to work. You see, I support my way of life with my own work

Thomas, you seem to ignore the fact that many in this country live off the fruits of other's labor, and quite well I may add. The problems ensue when people are paid as little as possible, benefits are cut, etc. while the man who is living off the fruits of others labor drives around in his Mercedes and purchases $300,000 boats.

Interesting statistic. In today's America purchases of vehicles now consist of approximately 2/3's being used. As the income gap continues to grow and the middle class continues to shrink Pat Buchanon's pheasants with pitchforks becomes more and more reality. I understand why the people with money live in gated communities. They figure it will be a line of defense when the pheasants arrive.

Also when you say " I propose this system" who are exactly??

Are you a politician? A leader of the socialist party??


Apparantly you do not understand that people do help in their own way to help the needy.
And to add to your comment about how I only think people are either mentally ill or lazy, I know they aren't the only two but in this country that is the majority of them.
Aside from the Uni students who can't pay their tuition, and the dad's that are getting screwed by their ex wives for more alimony et al.

I agree with you on one thing. The minimum wage is too small. It's stayed almost the same over the years, while people's pay checks are getting bigger.
I do agree it should be raised, prices on everything are getting bigger and the small guys/minimum wage people are getting screwed.

But people individually are not going to start giving out their paychecks to a system that will only make things worse.
One solution I can think of at the moment is to raise min wage. Those are the people who are needy, I agree.
Welfare system doesn't work, it let's people get away with too much bs. Those welfare people will refuse drug testing, I wonder why. But us folks can't possibly ask such a daunting favor because those people are above that. How dare we right? Our tax dollar are going to them to suppor their butt and they can tell us to stick it up are ass. riiight.
Anyway, you already live in socialist democracy just like Canada.
You may like it thats fine, stay there. American's like their free market system, so we will stay here.
William Wallace tried to fight for his freedoms against the rulers of england, because he didn't want the same thing the founding fathers came over here for. Freedom.
Who wants to live in a nanny state????

You do. Welfare people do. Needy people do.
Now if all these people started their own colony do you think they would help eachother out??

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Last time I checked, Libs vote for their own interest too. Notice how the poor tend to vote more for Democrates (i.e. the ones who propagate social spending). Your theory is flawed.

youre right, but the point i was making is that nationalism and voting republican/tory is incompatible.

Perhaps you would like to enjoy a bloated centralized government that misuses tax money in the extreme. If you want your money to be effective in helping people, then do it yourself. Don't let the government dictate how you contribute to your fellow man by looking at "the numbers", which is all they can do. What you are paying for more than anything else is overhead. Some benifit.

again i can see what you mean, but there is a difference between a system being flawed and one that is of no beneficial purpose. the uk NHS is currently suffering due to mismanagement and mass bureaucracy, but that doesnt mean we should tear the system down and start again. if a programme is worthwhile then the problems should be worked through.

What you preach is not possible. The best thing to do is to get involved in your community. It is from the bottom up rather than the top down that social change can occur, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that. You suffer from the "throw money at the problem" disease.

in the case of poverty, giving money to the poor seems like a good basis for a solution. and i do understand that radical change comes from the bottom up - it is intrinsic to every socialist theory.

Yes, wealth redistribution only serves to take from those who work for themselves. I support 2 kids and my wife by myself, but the government wants to make me contribute to people I don't see fit to contribute to. I am the only one who should dictate who recieves my help. I should be the master of my charity.

the problem with that though is that many people say they are prepared to contribute but never do. there have been many polls released with say, 80% saying they want a better social services but only 10% being willing to pay for it. if it were left up to the individual, the welfare state coffers would be full of empty promises.

You care. That at least I can respect, but do you truely think the government (who historically squanders money like an irresponcible kid) can do the best good? I could support social spending more if it was done through local government who is much more adapt in assessing need in their area and can focus on the problems rather than blanket solutions which only serve to add to the injustice of federal taxation for social spending.

Believe it or not but we do care, and no amount of being against federal social spending can change that. It is rather that we would like to be in control of the money we sweat for every day, and to help those in our community rather than to feed a bloated misappropriating federal program. This seems pretty obvious to me. You can not dictate social conciousness through massive federal programs that only serve to create huge overhead costs that drain the effectiveness of the money we pay.

i can respect that. however you are not arguing against taxation and the redistribution of wealth, but that the systems in place are unworkable. this is different to what other republicans on this thread were arguing. they seem to believe in a form of nozickean individualism where all tax is immoral, and all the unemployed are irreproachable. youre far more liberal than them (i hope you see this as a compliment rather than insult). im not sure who provides the more accurate representation of republicans.

i enjoyed your post, your obviously an intelligent man.

Well thank you for the compliment.

I understand what you are saying about the UK, but America is a fundamentally different system. One in which we like.

Livelyhood is not what is provided to all equally. They only thing promised in America is that all will be provided with the opportunity to succeed whether or not they care able, care, or want to take advantage of it.

Again, throwing money at a problem is not the solution. Hunger is an evil that can not be solved, but rather eased by the creation of jobs so people can reap their own fruits as well.

I think the verse about give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he eats for a lifetime is along the lines of what we prescribe to.

I would rather money be collected and spent locally if anything in order to address local issues that only local people can understand. Although I hate wealth redistribution, addressing local injustices in the current system is more cost effective and would allow the common man more influence as to how his money is spent (whereas the federal government is too large to really track how it's being used).

I work hard to feed my kids only to have their rightfully earned support be taken in lue of feeding another.

Should I choose to help someone I will. That is the great thing about America. We are all masters of our own things.

I am looking only to protect my assets as I would protect my property, family, and lives.

bolshevik

Helping one's fellow man is not patriotism. It is humanitarianism. It has nothing to do with one's political affiliation. Some of the most generous philanthropists happen to be republicans. The capitalistic economic system made it possible for them to accumulate their wealth, and to help their fellow man - whether that man is their countryman or lives a world away- as they see fit.

TC is 100% correct in his philosophy. He chooses to give to causes that he supports, according to his own moral values, and according to his own preferred schedule. For you to force him to support causes that he does not choose to, by stealing his money and having somebody else decide where to spend it - is censorship, theft, and slavery.

I don't know TC personally, but would be willing to bet that he is not averse to paying a fair tax for items that benefit society as a whole - gasoline taxes for highway systems, income tax for national defense, etc. The fact that he, or anyone else, cringes at the notion of being forced to donate to a cause that he abhors, is a sign of healthy self-preservation.

You owe the citizens of the US an apology.

john

Madman, the beautiful thing about our system is that any of us can strike out and become a businessman. You, too, can own your own company, build and nurture it, make it grow, and employee many people. I do not begrudge the successful people of this nation their just and earned wealth. I'm glad there are those who are willing to take the chance and become successful as I have benefited from their dreams by becoming an employee. Thank God for those who live the American dream!
And, seeing how the top 5% of the nation pay over half of the income tax, I'd say they are contributing plenty to this socialized culture in which we find ourselves.

They have earned their new luxury cars and yachts. Do you want those nideties? Go and earn them, become successful. I'll not envy you or begrudge you. Hell, I'll even buy you a beer and drink to your hard work and success!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
You aren't concerned about the welfare of your fellow countrymen and you know it. There's only two reasons why someone would be pushing such a system. Either they intend on doing less work as they know the system will pay them the same pitiful pittance no matter what their personal drive is, or they intend on being part of the ruling class, living off the first fruits of others' labor and controlling the people to the point of sending people with my conflicting ideas to the death camps.

the purpose of the system isn't to create an environment to nourish the lazy... but to remove the ones in existence under the current system.

no one person is obligated to carry the burden of others.
it is up to the system to create a fair and just condition for all to prosper collectively.
unfortunately, this isn't possible given that the government is in the pockets of corporations.

and there is no 'ruling class' under our system... not even the politburo.
it will be a much more egalitarian system with a true representative government... not confined within crap such as the electoral college... to protect the pigs from being taken out of power.

I don't see how you are going to create such a system, Esch, its never been done before. In every case the ruling caste lacks nothing, from ruthless power to automobiles, cigars and palaces, where the working class suffer equally, regardless of the individual person's work ethics. The human being was not designed to behave effectively under such a system. The better the incentive, the better we reach for our goals. That is why our system has worked far better than any socialist system. The closest you'll see to such a system working is in the military, and that is only because of the instilled discipline and comraderie.

I think a perfect example of this is the shop where I work. It's a union shop, and I'm a shop steward, as a matter of fact. The problem is, to insure that the good ol' boy system doesn't screw things up, most everything is done by seniority. A worker gets very little in the was was work performance incentive. This allows an observer to see people as they really are. There are more lazy, sorry bums that can stand right next to work all day long without actually touching it than I'd like to admit. No need in nationalising the scene!

Originally posted by jsobecky
You owe the citizens of the US an apology.

in all honesty, i was going to leave this thread to wither away and die because ive stated my argument, people have stated theirs and we've started going around in circles. however, you stated "You owe the citizens of the US an apology" and as this is the first time i have been asked to apologise to 250million people, i though i should really reply.

im not entirely sure why, but you seem to have the impression that this thread was primarily directed at america. this was never the case. read my original post. this thread was not directed at any particular nation, i gave examples of america, and to a greater extent britain, to open up the discussion and involve as many people as possible.

a more accurate statement would have been "you owe the rightwing patriots of the world an apology", you wouldnt have got it mind, but at least you would have had a vague grasp on validity.

True Lies, don't even agree with him about minimum wage, as he is wrong on that, too.
Minimum wages affect other things, such as inflation. Jack up minimum wage, and prices will go up across the board, for everyone.

Really now, in this country, you should not stay at minimum wage long. Unlike the system described by our socialist friend here, we all have the right to reach higher, we all have the right to strive for more. If someone is staying at minimum wage, they need to reevaluate their direction and try another path.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
True Lies, don't even agree with him about minimum wage, as he is wrong on that, too.
Minimum wages affect other things, such as inflation. Jack up minimum wage, and prices will go up across the board, for everyone.

Really now, in this country, you should not stay at minimum wage long. Unlike the system described by our socialist friend here, we all have the right to reach higher, we all have the right to strive for more. If someone is staying at minimum wage, they need to reevaluate their direction and try another path.

I'm talking about University students mainly....
How can these kids pay of college or uni it is very hard to do when your working minimum wage...

The only other options I see is waitressing or prostituting yourself... Of course thats for those who don't have any credit.... There is also student loans...

Although I agree about the reevaluating your life... Indeed, nobody should be at that point there whole life, but it canada it 6.85.... That is not alot... Especially if you can't accept tips for whatever jobs your doing, be it dishwasher, store clerk, counter person, cashier, ect..
They really should up it a few bucks... At least make it 9........


Bolshevik,

I'm just curious to know, have you ever heard of any people in any socialist regime wanting to stay there??
Not to mention people in socialist countries don't even get to vote!
Last I heard people were still trying to escape on dinky little rafts from cuba... I don't think i've ever heard of anybody trying to stay in those regimes...


Oh and yes you directing this whole thing at the americans... You said what do you guys have ot be so patriotic about??? You asked it more then a ew times because nobody was giving you the answer you wanted to hear...


fyi--- Socialism has never given a # about the people in those regimes either, so for you to preach your humanitarian bull# on us is hypocritical...
I still see people in cuba bathing without soap, and eating the scraps out of the hotel dumpsters...

LOL, I understand! Iworked as a pizza delivery boy, a police dispatcher and city jailor while going to college. I also took out student loans, which are an investment in your future. It was difficult all together, but well worth it, and you know what? After about 6 years' worth of college now, I still don't have a single degree! Three months away from one, four classes away from another, and have been at that point for a while now.

in the soviet union education was free
same in cuba...
in fact, many amerikan students move to cuba every year so they won't have to worry
about the big business that our educational facilities have turned into.

Originally posted by echelon
in the soviet union education was free

same in cuba...
in fact, many amerikan students move to cuba every year so they won't have to worry
about the big business that our educational facilities have turned into.

First, things cost money. Considering about 25% of people actually go to college (which all people do not want/need to go to) it would be wrong to make all pay for that.

Second, perhaps that is why we have gone farther longer than either of your examples.

Third, in our society it takes personal drive and dedication, so that the people who do fill the higher jobs have worked hard to get there.

Originally posted by TrueLies
Bolshevik,

I'm just curious to know, have you ever heard of any people in any socialist regime wanting to stay there??
Not to mention people in socialist countries don't even get to vote!
Last I heard people were still trying to escape on dinky little rafts from cuba... I don't think i've ever heard of anybody trying to stay in those regimes...

like ive said several times in this thread already, with regards to this discussion, i have no interest whatsoever in what happened in the totalitarian regimes of stalin, mao tse tung, castro or whoever. these people were not true socialists and are not fair examples of the changes i suggested. i have argued here for progressive taxation, not for socialist revolution. but anyway, again i say, if you point at stalin and say 'socialism doesnt work' i'll point at franco and mussolini and say 'capitalism doesnt work'. there is however no point in having such a simplistic, inaccurate argument.

Oh and yes you directing this whole thing at the americans... You said what do you guys have ot be so patriotic about??? You asked it more then a ew times because nobody was giving you the answer you wanted to hear...

yes, i have asked that question, but it was only directed at americans because it was americans i was replying to - i havent stated 'what do you americans have to be patriotic about'. like i said previously i gave examples of america, (but mainly britain) to open the argument up to the majority of the people on this forum. this thread was intended to question rightwing people worldwide - regardless of nationality that is.

if you have read my posts in this thread you will have seen that i am prepared to accept the opinions of republicans who say im wrong and that they do care about their citizens. the points you have raised here however, are banal and quite simply wrong.

Originally posted by bolshevik


i'll give you an insight into my life. i graduated last year and cant find work. i

That's a totally pisspoor excuse. You might be able to pull the wool over the Yank's eyes, but I live in the UK.

There is no shortage of work here. Anyone. And I do mean anyone, can get a job. The UK has almost a zero rate of unemployment. The only people that don't work are the ones who can't for health reasons or the lazy bastards who sit on thier asses. I run a business in the town in the UK which officially has the lowest national salary and the highest unemployment. But I can't get employees because most are happy on welfare and working for cash in hand.
And you might have "graduated" but that means jack # unless you give your subject.

So you're either a cripple or a lazy bastard. I know which one I'd pick. I suggest you get off your ass and look for paid work. Whining that you can't get a job is complete and utter bull#.

thats a nice bit of selective editing. i said that i do voluntary work everyday, so i think that the lazy bastard comment is slightly harsh.

but ok, to some extent youre right. i could walk into a job as a barman or whatever pretty easily - im seriously considering doing just that. but is studied in uni to get a job that i really want to do and so right now im waiting for something to come along. ive applied for about 5 jobs where i had far more than the minimum requested qualifications yet have never got to an interview stage. its really not as easy as people make out.

incidentally, i got my degree in history/politics.

what city are you from?

We have an answer. But you rather contradict yourself my friend.
You can walk into a job but it won't pay well. But rather than do that, you're waiting for one with the big bucks aren't you?

Can't say I blame you.......but it means that you aren't exactly a bolshevik.

To tell the truth, I actually do believe that capitalism sucks. It's not even survival of the fittest any more. More a case of who you know rather than what you know. I would like to see a totally socialist society but due to our nature, it's a long way away yet. Hopefully, this version of capitalism we are going through is just a stepping stone.

Originally posted by bolshevik
like i said previously i gave examples of america, (but mainly britain) to open the argument up to the majority of the people on this forum. this thread was intended to question rightwing people worldwide - regardless of nationality that is.

na na na na ... nooo. Wrong... If you really wanted to direct your therad towards the rightwing people worldwide, you would of said it... Your whole thread was directed towards Americans... Yes it was. Yes it was... Yes it was...

rightwing patriots are liars.

rightwing people seem to be always professing their love for their country. In britain, we have them singing songs about colonial rule and slavery - when "britannia ruled the waves" while they wave those cute little union flags and talk about a war "we won" that ended 59 years ago. In america, nationalism seems to be even more potent. in some cases it's obsessive to the point people cant function without chanting U.S.A U.S.A! at every conceivable moment.

its not really that that bothers me though - although i do find all form of nationalism deplorable (hence my choice of signature).

its that when an election comes, these noble thoughts of a love for ones country are exchanged for rampant self-interest. if rightwing people love their country so much then why do they vote according to what will benefit them rather than the populace as a whole? ideas such as progressive taxation are rejected in favour of a system of tax that sustains appaling economic inequality. people who voted thatcher in the 1980s, did so despite the total destruction of northern industry, the high unemployment figures and increased number of people living below the poverty line rising dramatically. But that didnt matter to those people, because on a personal level, they had a few extra pennies in their back pocket. Patriotism?

so if rightwing patriots have no interest in the welfare of their fellow countrymen what are they actually patriotic about?

be a patriot: vote socialist.




[Edited on 27-3-2004 by TrueLies]