Christian Masons???

PS ....I wanted to add that according to what I have read (from each of you personally) your also taking the MORAL HIGH ground (Lifting your Masonic beliefs above everyone elses beliefs as being THE ONE) that you claim most Organized religions have done which you all claim is SO NOT RIGHT ...
Which is PHARISEEISM at its best ..(as you pointed out about Christian Pharisees)

[edit on 15-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Senrak thank you .....I hope I can find some of these online to read for free ...lol ..

While the best things in life might be free, sometimes you do have to pay. I doubt you'll find the newer things on-line. But anything worthwhile is worth working for. Ya know.

I noticed you have Pike on that list ...If I cant believe a word of what he says about Masons why is he on your list ?

[sigh] No one ever said you "can't believe a word" Pike himself (in Morals & Dogma) said "believe this if you want to. Don't if you don't wan't to" (paraphrased). The point (which you've wholly missed) is Pike was not the end-all, know-all authority on Freemasonry. No one is. No one person speaks for the whole of Freemasonry. The reason being, there is no central authority, no "Supreme High Mucky-Muck" who's over ALL the Masons in the world. That posistion doesn't exist.

Pike was a VERY knowlegable man and a very good Masonic writer. Do I agree with EVERYTHING he said? No. Do I agree with some of it? Yes.
Will YOU agree with it? Maybe. Maybe not. But the fact is (and I do NOT mean this in a snotty way) It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It wasn't written for you. It was written for members of the Southern Jurisdiction Scottish Rite in the U.S.A. While some members of the U.K. undoubtedly have copies and might even enjoy reading Pike, his work was written specifically for U.S. Masons in his jurisdiction.

Also, if you look closely I do NOT in fact have Pike on that list. I have books ABOUT Pike...not books BY Pike. But I can recommend some by him if you're interested. They're costly, but worth it.

As I said before ..reading Pike is the only reason why I am even discussing this stuff with yall ...I wanted to know if yall really believed that guy or not

Some of it, yes. Some Masons fully reject Pike. You see, we're not only allowed as Masons, to think for ourselves as individuals, but we are encouraged to do so. No one tells us what to think. That's what the frothing-at-the-mouth Mason-haters cannot get into their heads.

...Because it is his writings that give yall a bad name ...and show that the symbols etc do really mean what he says they mean and states what the main goal of the Masons are .Which is not even close to what some of you have told me you believe ...

Apparently you've never read Pike's writing or you wouldn't have posted that. You're posting based on what OTHERS have SAID that Pike SAID.

Major difference.

The funny thing is, the Supreme Council has (in the past few years) not only issued books ABOUT the writings of Pike, but has re-issued long out-of-print books BY Pike. A couple that Pike had strictly forbade to be printed and distributed.

So, you see, if Pike were really as damning to us as some make him out to be, we'd be trying to re-call all his works and hide them.

Instead we're making them more easily attainable.

We really do have nothing to hide.

I suppose that's why so many people are convinced we're hiding something.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
PS ....I wanted to add that according to what I have read (from each of you personally) your also taking the MORAL HIGH ground (Lifting your Masonic beliefs above everyone else's beliefs as being THE ONE)

I don't see any of us here claiming to be morally better than anyone. If we have done that, we've missed the whole point of Freemasonry. It's not at all about making me better than you (or anyone) It's about me making me better than ME.

We believe in the Brotherhood of man, under the fatherhood of God. All people were created by the Almighty. All are his children. As such, all are our brothers (and sisters, of course...I use the masculine out of habit and out of my hatred for the cancer political correctness)

that you claim most Organized religions have done which you all claim is SO NOT RIGHT ...
Which is PHARISEEISM at its best ..(as you pointed out about Christian Pharisees)

Hmmm....sure sounds like YOU are passing judgement.

I thought good Christians didn't do that.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Well doesnt it all start with TRYING TO UNDERSTAND and tolerate the New Agers (and their rituals) The Christians (and their rituals) the Islamics and (Their rituals ) etc etc ....and see them all as EQUALS (Thats what yall preach and teach in your manuals ) ....

This does not follow. Tolerating the beliefs and world view of someone else is different than accepting it as truth. I see the religions of the world as equals with Christianity in their right to exist and explore the existential questions about life, but I do not have to see them all as being correct.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
And that not any one group or organized religion can bring it all about .(Even yall say this ) ...unless it starts on the individual level it wont happen right ? Yet Masons say they are the special chosen ones who have this knowledge to make it all happen for the better through the Brotherhood ....(An Organized group of men trying to bring about a better world ) who do silly rituals (See your rituals look silly to most of us and the New Agers too ) ...

Now your making things up. Freemasonry has never claimed that they are the "special chosen ones" to do anything. Freemasonry has claimed it is 1 avenue to achieve its ideological goals. There are many avenues, many fraternities, none better than the other.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
How are you personally making mankind better by looking down on their rituals (as you say we do to yours ) as silly etc ?

But you already know this, because you've already stated the answer. The answer is because it all starts with the individual. If the individual is not committed to exploring masonic philosophy and upholding its many virtues, than he is not going to be a good member of the organization. The ritual serves to teach members about masonic values and to enforce upon them the importance of their duties.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
And how is your Masonic way any different then than the Christian way or the New Age way ..when yall have your silly rituals too and your different ideas of what is Moral or not Moral ..etc ..

Because Christian and New Age are religions (although the New Age movement is much less organized), and Freemasonry is not. Religion teaches salvation and dogma, while freemasonry teaches secular virtue and philosophy. Two completely different things. Also, modern religion is not primarily concerned with this whole "make a better world thing" - its concerned with the world after this one. Freemasonry, not being a religion, doesn't have a world after this one to focus on.

Also, you are wrong in thinking freemasonry says what is moral or not moral. Freemasonry says each person's morality comes from their religion.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Since you claim to have THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT to the betterment of mankind ? How is your group (your organized Club)
Any different than the New Agers and the Christians etc etc ???

Incorrect. Freemasonry never claims to have "THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT to the betterment of mankind." Never has, never will. It claims to have masonic light, a metaphor for knowledge, that offers lessons on virtues and philosophy that make men better. It never claims these lessons or virtues are the best ones.

As we've previously established, what makes it different from the religions that you keep trying to draw a connection is that its not a religion and never has been. Your attempting to force a comparison between apples and oranges.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Especially after listening to some of you now for months on what you believe and what your wanting is a better world ..Doesnt that better world start with BELIEVING ALL MEN TO BE EQUAL and all beliefs to be EQUAL and all ideas of morals and values to be legit and equal ? If you look down on New Age and Christian ways then your not seeing anyone as an EQUAL are you ?

Honestly, I have no idea where your getting this from. Freemasonry has no stance on Christian and New Age beliefs, nor any other religion. It does say all religious should be tolerated, which means that they are treated as equal. It doesn't mean everyone has to believe they are all right.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Please enlighten me on how you all plan to change things ..if you dont even start with the TOLERANCE you preach and teach etc (I know you can ask Christians the same things) and the EQUALITY you preach about mankind etc .....Most of you have double standards just like alot of Organized Religions do ....I am asking you this time though >..

Again, your just making stuff up here. It is not freemasonry's purpose to make the world a better place. It is freemasonry's purpose to teach esoteric philosophy and virtue, which it hopes its members will take to heart and thus make their world better.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
You personally ..Who looks down on those new agers alien watchers who are silly and the silly christians and their silliness ideas about how they can make this a better world ... etc ?

Yet again, your literally making things up. You think that because I pointed out the GFL October 14 thread was lunacy that this means I look down on "alien watchers," when in reality if you had read what I wrote instead of jumping to conclusions you would see I never said such at hing.

You continually attempt to create a moral equivalency between things that have none. Its really just this simple: I do not have to believe in everything to tolerate everything.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Dont you even see that at all ?
Some of the Masonic double standards are showing through in almost every other post from some of you who TOOK A VOW to the BETTERMENT OF MANKIND (As you say you did when you described to us what the meanings of those vows were in your opinion) ..

I don't think so, but I do see a lot of Christian DOUBLE STANDARDS. Also, no one took a vow for the "betterment of mankind" - people took a vow to uphold masonic philosophy and virtue. I really don't know where you get this betterment of mankind stuff.

Its not even clear what your problem with freemasonry is because your basing everything on things that aren't true.

This gets so confusing ...One of you says something like we dont go by anything Pike says (In another thread alot of Masons were ADAMENT that there is NO CONNECTION to Pike and the Masonic Symbolisms and Rituals and what he stood for etc ... and then someone else says Pike says some things you can find out about Masons with .....
And for your info ..I really did read all of Pikes writings while I was lurking and watching all of your arguments with others ..I wanted to give Masons the benefit of the doubt..


I am too tired right now (had to do some hard labor today lol)
to even argue with you .

And I am not just making stuff up ...I just dont know sometimes how to say what I am trying to say .I dont want to sound stupid among all of you over intelligent Masons ...I find yall intimidating ...lol ..seriously .

I am taking a break from this thread .
I appreciate yall talking to me ..

reply to post by Simplynoone


Pike did a pretty fair study of Masonry, most famously in regards to the Scottish Rite.
In his over all status, he's really only of relevance to anyone in the Scottish Rite, or is seeking to be in the Scottish right.

However, internet fame has made it fairly important that anyone seeking to give a fair argument against some of the more questionable threads on the Secret Societies forum, here on ATS and various conspiracy sites on the web, (deep breath here)
have a good working knowledge of him.

From what I've read of him, he gives his views on what Masonry is and what it should be,and what is to be expected of it's members.
The regard for his opinions will vary, much as the regard for any other philosopher and researcher will vary.

Personally, though it takes a search engine occasionally to understand his full points in Morals and Dogma at times, I enjoy reading his work.
To me, find it entertaining, challenging, and insightful.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I really did read all of Pikes writings while I was lurking and watching all of your arguments with others

I find this statement rather hard to digest considering that Albert Pike was a very prolific author and several of Pike's works are not even available or rather exhorbently priced . If you actually meant that you read Morals and Dogma from cover to cover then I feel that you would not be taking many of the excerpts out of context and would approach them with a deeper understanding of how they relate to Masonry in general.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
And for your info ..I really did read all of Pikes writings while I was lurking and watching all of your arguments with others ..I wanted to give Masons the benefit of the doubt..

No offense meant Simplynoone, but at present I am girding up my loins to doubt the statement regarding having read "ALL" of Pike's writings.

Pike wrote a whole LOT. Much more than just Morals & Dogma. If you've read THAT in it's entirety, I'm impressed. But if you have, did you UNDERSTAND it? Likely not, as it's a commentary for Scottish Rite Masons and builds upon the teachings of those degrees. It doesn't reiterate the teachings, it BUILDS UPON them. Makes it difficult to digest if one hasn't experienced the Scottish Rite.


MANY of Pikes writings have never been published, but are in the Archives of the Supreme Council in Washington DC. Of course, you haven't read these, very few have. Admittedly I've only read a small portion of them myself. But if you've read Morals & Dogma that's wonderful. I sincerely doubt you've read "all" of his writings, though.

I'd be interested to know.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by senrak]

I just came back to answer why I have a problem with the Masonic stuff .

And I mean this in a nice way .
You (LowLevel) said you found the New Agers to be silly in thinking some space ship may come ..Well I find that your rituals and things you do at your meetings to be silly too for a bunch of grown men to be doing .
Oh and all of you claim all you do is have lunch and hang out ..I dont believe that ..And all of you claim it is not a religion with dogma ..And it sure is ..no matter how you slice it ..it is very similar to a Church or a Cult even .......
But the main thing is yall come off as a little too perfect ......and you deny anything and everything if it isnt good when its said about Masons ..(Even Christians admit that there are alot of really shady things going on within our Church ) and your boys clubs are just too perfect and nonchalant ..which if it sounds too good to be true then it ISNT >..

TO
Addak please dont get mad at me ...I personally really like you as a person ...And I hope you dont jump on me for these posts ..
I always want to be your friend .And none of this is personal to any of you ..honestly ...it is just the Masonic stuff in general that bothers me ...

reply to post by senrak




Well ok then I didnt read them all .I didnt know he had written more than that .
I stand corrected ..sorry ..


[If you actually meant that you read Morals and Dogma from cover to cover then I feel that you would not be taking many of the excerpts out of context and would approach them with a deeper understanding of how they relate to Masonry in general.]

I really did read that one ..the whole thing ...and no I didnt really understand alot of it ....but for sure it wasnt something I really wanted to even read ...I did it so I could see what all the talk was about (when people posted about it ) ...


[edit on 15-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by In nothing we trust


several of your points are very interesting, but the concept that the pyramid of capitalism is evil, i'm having trouble with that.
there's not a government, anywhere, in or out of this universe, that doesn't have at its head, a solitary being of power, beneath which are the varying levels of servants. has always been true. communism tries to promote itself as a group controlling the many, so that the entire thing looks like a single platform on the backs of everyone else. that's a lie. there's always someone over someone else. the big difference is, in communism, you lose your identity and become a drone for the state, with no greater wish than for the state to succeed at the expense of literally, everyone else.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Oh and all of you claim all you do is have lunch and hang out ..I dont believe that

We also perform the occasional charitable act, if you feel that we are being deceptive about our actions many states have our lodge minutes available for public access, please, feel free to review them.

..And all of you claim it is not a religion with dogma ..And it sure is

Really, how so? Please demonstrate how Masonry is a religion. Please include correlating facts and evidence as personal opinion will not suffice in this regard.

..no matter how you slice it ..it is very similar to a Church or a Cult even .......

Please see above.

But the main thing is yall come off as a little too perfect ...

Far from it. I am about as far from perfect as you can get, trust me.

...and you deny anything and everything if it isnt good when its said about Masons ..(

Denial of hearsay and unsubstantiated claims? Certainly. Admittance of actual events? How could we deny these?

Even Christians admit that there are alot of really shady things going on within our Church ) and your boys clubs are just too perfect and nonchalant ..

You are coming across to me as rather bitter and petty. No one here has ever claimed themselves or Masonry to be perfect. Please correct me with quotes if you feel I am mistaken.

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by In nothing we trust

 

several of your points are very interesting, but the concept that the pyramid of capitalism is evil, i'm having trouble with that.

Capitalism in itself is not evil. I support the concept of self determination and the free trade of goods and services unrestricted by excesive taxes, burocratic red tape, over whelming laws and regulations and a legal system that favors smooth talkers able to turn a lie into the truth and 12 stupid people who have nothing better to do with thier time.

What is evil is when the excessivly rich obtain so much money and power that they think they can rule over the rest of the population using fear, force, secrecy, propaganda and bribery.

When such things occur, as they are now, the counter reaction is revolution. Revolution tends offer the illusion of power, control and prosperity to the masses via communism or socialism. Democracy and socialism go hand in hand as do fascism and socialism. It's kind of a crap shoot on what comes out the other side.

Freedom (Liberty) and democracy would be the ideal solution. But that is a choice that the rich will not make, because it requires them to give up control.

It's always been a question about just who gets to be free. It's too bad that most people are too stupid to want much of anything except to have thier basic needs met and to be told what to do.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by In nothing we trust]

Agustus ..I have no reason to be bitter ....petty maybe lol ..but why would I be bitter ..I have only met a few Masons in my life and I considered them friends ..They never did me wrong (I didnt know them well ) one even paid for my sons glasses and I was really appreciative of that .. .


Maybe I am just leary because of all that I have read about Masons .And all the Ancient Babylonian stuff that goes with it ..
And the fact that you all deny anything negative about your club and the boys who are part of it .and the higher ups (which you prob never see much ) ...and the fact that ALOT of Senators and Presidents etc are Masons and not much good has come from them THATS FOR SURE .. ..I cant even get around the fact that you just call it a good ole boys club that does nothing serious ..just eat drink and be merry ......ok and give to charity (which MANY people do ..that really is nothing so special that it needs to be CLARIFIED everytime yall post about the Masons..that just comes off as bragging about your good works ..please stop doing that ...everyone has done something good in their lifetime) ... ...Nothing is that cut and dried and simple not in any club ..not in any Church not anywhere ....even my nice quiet neighborhood has things going on behind closed doors that I know may be evil ...and not good .

Ok goodnight all ..

Originally posted by Simplynoone
And I mean this in a nice way .
You (LowLevel) said you found the New Agers to be silly in thinking some space ship may come

Actually, I never said this. And I think you do a disservice to the New Age movement to call the Blossom Goodchild hysteria "New Age." I said I thought Blossom Goodchild's UFO prediction was nutty and would be wrong, turns out it was. You are trying to create the hysteria following her predictions with a religion, when it does not exist.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
..Well I find that your rituals and things you do at your meetings to be silly too for a bunch of grown men to be doing .

Why exactly is this supposed to matter? Your free to have your opinion, which I must say so far have not been based on a demonstration of the facts. If you don't like what we do, then don't join.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Oh and all of you claim all you do is have lunch and hang out ..I dont believe that

Your creating a straw man. I don't think anyone says thats ALL we do. Its part of what we do. Beyond that, we do ritual, engage in masonic education, and do some anonymous charity. Which isn't the evil your looking for, so of course you won't believe me.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
..And all of you claim it is not a religion with dogma ..And it sure is ..no matter how you slice it ..it is very similar to a Church or a Cult even .......

This shows a basic lack of research and no understanding of the facts on your part. In fact masonry does not meet any of the requirements of a religion, and certainly has never been a cult by its very definition. Your going to have to make up definitions to make your assertion fit, and also include things like the Boy Scouts as a cult.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
But the main thing is yall come off as a little too perfect ......and you deny anything and everything if it isnt good when its said about Masons ..(Even Christians admit that there are alot of really shady things going on within our Church ) and your boys clubs are just too perfect and nonchalant ..which if it sounds too good to be true then it ISNT >..

I think this is more proof that you really don't have an argument based off of facts here. You have an argument based off what you have very selectively read, and you have ignored most of the facts that don't fit with what you want to believe freemasonry is.

Case in point: I have seen no masons here or elsewhere ever claim freemasonry doesn't have bad apples. In fact, we highlight all the time that with the number of members freemasonry has you are bound to get someone whose up to no good occasionally. But of course you decide to selectively skip these posts, because it does not fit with the narrative you want to believe.

I would strongly recommend you back up, get the facts, and then start your analysis over again. What you've done is created a freemasonry that doesn't exist, but is simply what you want freemasonry to be. You are ignoring everything that doesn't fit with your personal mental narrative.

I would suggest you start with what specific problems do you have with freemasonry. So far, all your distress is based on problems that don't exist, so I cannot do anything to explain them to you.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by LowLevelMason]

reply to post by Simplynoone


If you don't understand why they do the rituals, I suppose it does seem a bit silly.
Heck, I'm considering joining Masonry and I'll admit the enactments they put on seem a bit silly. (Sorry, but it's the truth.)
At the same time, Understand the point.
Sure, on the one hand, it's tradition. With some variation, the same rituals have been done for a couple of centuries.
Now, at the same time, it's meant to imply learning. It's a reflection of how things used to be learned. The symbolism in the play meant to impart to the partakers some meaning from Masonry, and whichever side orders they're taking.

reply to post by RuneSpider


Maybe thats why it bothers me ...I do not even like the Rituals that Church makes you go through Especially the rituals of the Catholic Church (which thank God I am not Catholic because I wouldnt do them) not to mention alot of their rituals are from Egyptian stuff too ......I hate rituals at home even ..I change things everyday so it does not seem like a daily ritual .

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Agustus ..I have no reason to be bitter ....petty maybe lol ..but why would I be bitter ..I have only met a few Masons in my life and I considered them friends ..They never did me wrong (I didnt know them well ) one even paid for my sons glasses and I was really appreciative of that .. .

And considering this circumstance you still feel engendered to be petty towards Masons and Masonry?

Maybe I am just leary because of all that I have read about Masons .And all the Ancient Babylonian stuff that goes with it ..

Oh good Christ on his ever-loving cross. What Babylonian stuff?!? Where are you getting this from?

And the fact that you all deny anything negative about your club and the boys who are part of it...

I addressed this comment in my previous post, please do not ignore it and repost the same commentary without responding to my requests. Thank you.

.and the higher ups (which you prob never see much ) ...

I see the 'higher ups' at every meeting.

and the fact that ALOT of Senators and Presidents etc are Masons and not much good has come from them THATS FOR SURE

At the present time there are no Senators or Presidents with any Masonic affiliation. Please demonstrate otherwise.

..I cant even get around the fact that you just call it a good ole boys club that does nothing serious ..just eat drink and be merry ...

I do not recall anyone refering to Masonry as a 'good ole boys club' which to me it is most assuredly not. Please correct me with quotes if I am wrong.

...ok and give to charity (which MANY people do ..that really is nothing so special that it needs to be CLARIFIED everytime yall post about the Masons..that just comes off as bragging about your good works ..please stop doing that ...

Then please stop posting that you feel that Masonry does no good as you have repeatedly stated.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Maybe thats why it bothers me ...I do not even like the Rituals that Church makes you go through Especially the rituals of the Catholic Church (which thank God I am not Catholic because I wouldnt do them)

The irony there is, if you didn't DO the rituals, you wouldn't BE Catholic.

not to mention alot of their rituals are from Egyptian stuff too

I assume you mean "a lot" but name one. What Catholic ritual is from [ahem] "Egyptian stuff" ?

......I hate rituals at home even

Like bathing? That's a ritual. Do you pray before you go to sleep, or perhaps when you wake up? That's a ritual. Do you change your sheets on a regular basis? or clean the bathroom regularly? Those are rituals.

Why do you "hate" rituals? They're part of most people's every day lives.

..I change things everyday so it does not seem like a daily ritual .

Hmmm...you change things every day. THAT'S A RITUAL.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Rituals were a old way of teaching, of impressing upon the enactors the importance of what they are enacting.
Like a Christmas pageant, it both recreates a believed story, it impresses the lesson of the story, and it makes the person personally involved in the story itself.
I can, personally, better remember the parts I've played in plays and pageants than many of the lessons I learned in class.

I'm not one to say the ancients were better in everything, but they had this right: The best type of learning is interacting, which is what rituals do.

It seems you hate less rituals and more repetition, which is fine and good. If you can get to the same place a new way everyday, why not?
However, when you want to learn something, or impart a lesson, it's best to work one way to start with, until you've learned it.
Least, that's the way I've learned things.