What I found in my Dad's Pocket

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
I included "IMHO" for a reason. If someone takes my online suggestions as an absolute authority on medical knowledge then there are bigger concerns

I have taken anti-depressants. More then one kind. I have also done extensive research. I am only offering my suggestions based on my personal experience and knowledge. Which is, stay away from antidepressants.

And I am only expressing my dislike of one-size-fits-all recommendations for medical treatment (or non-treatment).

My comments about generics were in response to Amaterasu pointing out the possibility that doctors receive kickbacks (sometimes) for prescribing preferentially. Indeed, the generics contain the same active ingredients as the name-brand meds, at the same strength. But the profit is not there for the pharmaceutics companies to anything like the same degree that it is for name-brand meds. I've never heard of doctors being offered kickbacks to recommend a generic drug. If there's a doctor in the house who can correct me, I hope they will.

My younger brother was once drugged beyond belief like that.
When a second doctor realized what the first one had done, and was doing, to him he demanded (to the hospital administrator) that my brother be removed from the first doctors care and placed in his.
After that my brother went from taking over 30 pills a day to less than 6.
The second doctor explained that doctors get kickbacks from the pharmacudical companies based on how many of their drugs they prescribe.
He also explained that some doctors (like himself) would rather help people than get rich from drugging patients to death.
For anyone in this situation I would highly recommend getting another doctor (who is not in any way connected to the original doctor) to revue the case, and maybe even a third if the second doctor finds no problem with this ridiculous drugging.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Pharmaceutical companies "kick back" to the MD on any prescription or administration of their drugs and vaccines.

Where is your source on this? My understanding is that when doctors write scripts the pharma companies have no clue. They pay their reps based on the overall sales at pharmacies in that territory.

Now pharma companies DO offer perks, trips, dinners, and things of that nature to get the doctors interested in their products, but they do NOT give them a kickback because they have no idea which of them are actually writing prescriptions.

Sounds like sharing that sort of information would be a major HIPAA violation.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Sonya610]

reply to post by americandingbat


Most of the drugs I have been prescribed or seen prescribed have been Generics. So I don't know. Name-brand doesn't seem too common to me.

BTW I truly dislike people saying the one-size-fits-all blanket statement such as "antidepressants are life-savers"

I'd agree with you if I had said "antidepressants are lifesavers for anyone who is depressed." But I said: "But for those who need them, they are life savers, literally."

That's hardly one-size-fits-all medicine

reply to post by americandingbat


But you are implying the people who 'need' them are the people who are clinically depressed are you not? And you said the people who take them are taking life-savers.

Therefore the people that are clinically depressed need antidepressants.

Therefore you said antidepressants are life-savers.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


If that was the impression my post gave, I am sorry.

What I was trying to say was that while some people have had negative experiences with antidepressants (and even tragic ones, as has already been discussed in this thread), in some cases they save lives. I offer myself as an example.

I have also known people who reacted poorly to antidepressants and ended up feeling like they were "wrapped in wool." For those people, antidepressants are not the answer. One of my friends has a sister who has been treated successfully with electro-convulsive therapy. The very idea terrifies me, but for her that's what has worked.

I also don't think that antidepressants are ever the only therapy that's needed for non-situational depression. I believe that being seriously depressed creates a trauma that must be addressed spiritually, emotionally, and mentally for complete recovery. But at least for me, the chemical imbalance had to be addressed before I could be lucid and functional enough to address the deeper issues.

EDIT TO ADD: I'm not good with terms relating to formal logic, but you're jumping from "the people who need antidepressants are clinically depressed" which I would agree with (forgetting for the moment about any off-label uses that might apply), to "Clinically depressed people need antidepressants" which doesn't follow.

[edit on 10/12/08 by americandingbat]

[edit on 10/12/08 by americandingbat]

reply to post by Sonya610


These perks you talk about extend in many directions. If certain Dr.'s are pardners in a clinic they get perks from the sales of drugs and the amounts recomended to patients. The more patients the Dr.'s have on certain medications the greater the perks. Thats a back door to bad medicine and is a form of kickbacks. The laws very from state to state as to what is considered a remuneration for serivces rendered.

Zindo

Whereas the reality of it is that people that are clinically depressed are completely in the dark on what the outcome will be like and so are the Docs prescribing them.

Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. 50% success would be a very generous number. The reality is most patients jump through a few antidepressants before finding one that helps, and it will only help for a few years before they have to repeat that cycle because the brain developed a tolerance to it. The cycle can be as bad as the depression itself. Since the ones that 'don't work', work quite well.... they just don't work the way one would hope! They can be disastrous! They can make the patient much more depressed. Not too mention the week long withdrawal affects every time the patient has to ween to try another one that may or may not work...

Yes, for some they are life-savers! And not certain anti-depressants, just certain people. It purely depends on the specific patient. There is no antidepressant that is known to be successful for most. It's total guess work.

It's a game of russian roulette, only the chamber is mostly filled with bullets.

The most honest way to say it imho would be:

"You have a 50% chance of this working for you. There will be some bad side-affects, most of which will go away after a few weeks. Some side affects are permanent. If this one doesn't work for you we will try another. The weening process also has bad side affects but will only last a week or so. Eventually one should work for you. Realistically it will only work for you for 3-5 years before you will have to go on another one"

That was also sugar coated, as I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the Dr. In all truthfulness I would use a lower figure then 50% and I would talk about the sex, weight gain, and permanent bad breath

Or I guess we can say "antidepressants are lifesavers for those that need it"

I say stay away from them because I do not believe in almost all clinically depressed people the root of the cause is a chemical imbalance.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy The weening process also has bad side affects but will only last a week or so. Eventually one should work for you. Realistically it will only work for you for 3-5 years before you will have to go on another one"

The weaning process varies a LOT depending on the drug. Some, like Paxil, can cause bad withdrawl effects for weeks or months. Others, like Prozac, might not cause any.

reply to post by Sonya610


Yes I agree with you Sonya. And in fact I personally have been on paxil and had a very long and very nasty weening. I have not been on prozac but I have heard more then once from MDs it has the easiest weening. In fact I think some MDs will prescribe prozac to a patient who is trying to get off another antidepressant just so they experience the weening of prozac instead.

reply to post by americandingbat


You're right I don't think the logic flowed the way I meant it too. Nor did I see the logic the way you intended I think.

You initially responded to my "people should stay away from anti-depressants" with "for people that need it anti-depressants are life-savers".

I interpreted the 'people who need it' as people who are clinically depressed, and the 'it' being the drug. Since you said the 'it' is a life-saver. I assumed you were saying people(the depressed) need it (the drug) because it will save their lives.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I agree with pretty much everything in that post. Antidepressants are no joke, and they're not fun to take. There are awful side effects, they are expensive unless you have really excellent prescription coverage, and there is a very good chance that any given antidepressant will not work for you. And if it does, it may not work forever.

I am 100% sure that I would be dead by now if I hadn't agreed to take antidepressants at a certain point in my life. For me, they were worth the pain.

EDIT: I see how you could have read my original statement that way. I really didn't intend to say anything about all clinically depressed people. Are we in agreement then? I'm lost now.

[edit on 10/12/08 by americandingbat]

reply to post by americandingbat


I believe you, so I can't dispute that. I know this is the case for many.

But still, I believe in most cases the root cause is not a chemical imbalance. Which is way I stick to this opinion.

*Edit: Yes I think I understand what you meant now.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Excellent, because the ad banner is starting to assure me that there is help for my kids with drug problems, which is usually a sign that I've spent too long on a medication-related thread

And I agree with you that most depression doesn't require medication. And as I said, I think that almost no depression can be fixed with only medication. It's one tool, and a pretty blunt one at that.

What I found in my Dad's Pocket
First off sorry about your loss man ,losing your only father.

My dad about a couple years ago had a quadruple heart bypass surgery and when he left the hospital he started passing out we called his doctor and found out he was having complications from his medications and we came to find out that he was not suppose to be taking a certain medication anymore.
It could have killed him if we did ask the rite questions about his medication.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by BannedForLife]

Originally posted by imd12c4funn


Lisinopril - 40mg daily...........................................for high blood pressure
Isosorbide - 20mg daily - (2 tabs -40mg) 4 X daily...same
Atenolol - 25mg twice daily.....................................same
Levothyroxine - 0.075mg daily................................thyroid pill
Ranitipine - 150mg daily.........................................Ranitidine? = Zantac
Nifedipine - 60mg daily.........................................for high blood pressure
Atorvastatin - 40mg daily......................................for high cholesterol
Glipizide - 5mg twice daily.....................................for high blood sugar
Nitroglycerine - o.4mg SL As Needed.....................for chest pain
Aspirin - 80mg 3 X daily........................................to keep blood thinned
Calcium - 600mg twice daily..................................was
Selenium - 50mg every other day.......................... dad
Folic Acid - 400mg daily......................................... self
Magnesium - 250mg every other day...................... medicating
Fish oil - 1000mg every other day.......................... with
Co-enzyme Q10 - (30mg) every other day.............. vitamins
Vitamin C - 500mg daily........................................ or
Zinc - 30mg daily.................................................. were
Multi - vitamin daily............................................... these
Vitamin E - 400 IV daily......................................... prescribed?

You're right. These are waaaayyyy too many meds. If his blood pressure was that uncontrolled then he needed to be seen by a specialist and probably have a major life-style change: diet, workout, the works. Do you know by any chance if his blood type was "A"?

I'm really sorry to hear about your dad and I can imagine what a shock it was for you to find out how sick he was. He obviously was trying to take the best care of himself he could by downing all these pills every day.

I'm curious as to why you would bring this information to the attention of ATS. We're here for you, of course, but are you seeking some specific information? Are you concerned that the doctor was negligent or that the amount of pills dad was taking was what pushed him over the edge? How specifically can we meet your need?

reply to post by imd12c4funn


I just want to know why someone with severe heart problems was on Levothyroxine. And maybe Glipizide.

Can I ask what his cause of death was? And I'm very sorry, I almost lost my father at a time when I hadn't talked to him for months. Thankfully he lived through it and is doing quite well.

Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Pharmaceutical companies "kick back" to the MD on any prescription or administration of their drugs and vaccines.

Where is your source on this?

I will see what I can find - it's been a while since I had those data in front of me, but surely in any case where a drug is administered on site (like a vaccine, or any other injectable), the companies would know. And... I might suspect that somewhere there is a database of who is prescribing what based on prescriptions tendered. It may be several such databases, or not.

My point is that it is conceivable that this information IS available (whether legal or not to access) and given that all KINDS of illegal things happen in this money-driven system, I wouldn't put it past them...

Well, off I go to find information.

EDIT to add:

Here are some links I found:

www.sptimes.com...

www.aegis.com...

www.relievingpain.net...

writ.news.findlaw.com...

www.newmanmag.com...

From the above site:

"I used to get three to four dinners a week and gift certificates [for attending] events," he explains. "I'd get to [enjoy] one of the best dinners in Orlando [Florida] and get a $100 certificate for medical supplies. As a young doctor it was really nice to be able to entertain myself and my wife."

www.truthout.org...

www.sun-sentinel.com...



[edit on 10/13/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Sonya610
Sounds like sharing that sort of information would be a major HIPAA violation.
[edit on 12-10-2008 by Sonya610]

It WOULD BE if they released the name of the patient.
But without the name it would not be a violation it would be just a statistic.