Heaven and Hell..... Traditional Christianity vs. THE BIBLICAL TRUTH!!!

reply to post by Christ!


I don't mean to be rude but when I read your posts, you make no sense. You say things in repetition and don't get the point across. I'm glad you try and contribute to the discussion but you drown the thread with the same exact thing in every post. Not trying to be rude to you. Just think you can work on getting to the point better.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Christ!

 

I don't mean to be rude but when I read your posts, you make no sense. You say things in repetition and don't get the point across. I'm glad you try and contribute to the discussion but you drown the thread with the same exact thing in every post. Not trying to be rude to you. Just think you can work on getting to the point better.

The world makes no sense to heaven [reality].
Heaven makes no sense to the world [illusions].
How then do we communicate?
The Holy Spirit is the great mediator between illusions and reality.
His task is to bring illusions back to reality.
He saves what is real about illusions, and let's illusions fade away.
In this way, he separates "the sheep" from "the goats".

I have *recognized* the authentic Voice of "good shepherd".
I am filling in as a translator between the sheep and the Shepherd.

Repetition is absolutely necessary toward the transformation of one's mind.
I repeat, line upon line, because the thinking mind that makes the world is rather incorrigable, and goat-like.
It's way of thinking is very tricky, and will readily mistranslate any words given as teaching aids.
Its way of thinking is pretty much opposite how GoD thinks.
It could take years to turn one's thinking around to think like God.
Jesus associates felt the same way you feel now, and struggled with it for years.

Repetition is characteristic of a washing process.
Essentially, you are being *baptized*.
It would help if you were willing.
Willingness and understanding are correlated.
No one understands who is not willing to understand.

However, I do understand that what I say will not, at first, make much sense to you.
So I accept that you are not trying to be rude.

I recommend asking specific questions.
Try to ask open-minded questions, rather than rhetorical questions.
I will answer liberally, going the extra mile.
If there is yet anything not understood, keep asking questions.
There is a good reason the Holy Spirit is called "the Answer".
To the extent that Jesus asked questions, he was answered, and in now known as "the Answer".

Christ!



[edit on 23-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Locoman8
So, does man have an immortal soul?

Man's immortal soul is "Christ".
Christ is "lost" when a mind tries to "gain the world".
That is because Christ and the world are opposites.
Christ is the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God is "within".
The world is "without".
The world hides the Kingdom of God...blinding those who seek to gain the world.
Man is something to be gained, beyond the Kingdom of God.
So,
Man is not part of the Kingdom of God.
So man cannot be "saved".
What is saved is man's "soul".
So,
Salvation is for the Kingdom of God.
Salvation is for what has seemed to leave the Kingdom to gain another world.
Salvation is for the "prodigal son".
Salvation is ultimately for the Son of God.
Salvation is psychological, for the Son's mind.
Lost, the Son's mind is "divided against itself".
It is divided between reality and illusions...truth and lies.
This presents a conflict of cosmic proportions.
The "fallout" of this conflict is "the world".
The world expresses this conflict of interests.
The world is an expression of opposites, sometimes called "duality".
Nothing about duality is true.
It is an expression of freedom.
Freedom, expressed in terms of opposites presents a kind of "slavery" or "imprisonment".
Hence, the need for "salvation".
The "lost" have lost the knowledge of their freedom because they have lost the knowledge of their Self.
Salvation is to "know thySelf"...as GoD created Self.
GoD did not create "man".
GoD gave everything to Self in the creation of Self.
As Self seeks to gain more than everything, it seeks through self-concepts.
Man is a self-concept which is constantly seeking...and not finding.
Man can only seek and find his Self...his provervial "soul".

Man is a concept of *many*.
So, man thinks there are many souls.
There are not many souls.
There is only one Soul.



Christ!

[edit on 23-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Locoman8
Why is it, we can't find out what to expect when we reach heaven in the Holy Bible? What would we do in heaven? Pluck harps? Gaze upon God? British historian and author Paul Johnson says, "Heaven... lacks genuine incentive. Indeed, it lacks definition of any kind. It is the great hole in theology." (The Quest for God, 1996, p.173). The Bible does not say the righteous will recieve heaven as their reward. The Bible reveals that God has something else in mind... something far different and far superior to most people's concepts about heaven.

Yes, heaven is beyond imagination.
That is because heaven is truth and reality.
Truth and reality require no imagination.
They do require acceptance.
"The world" is all that is imagined.

Before ever trying to interpret anything in the bible, make a clear distinction between what is the "Kingdom of God" and what is "the world". Accept the fact that the "Kingdom" of Jesus is "not of this world". Understand that "the world" is something to be "overcome".

Completely erase the world from your mind when you think of the "Kingdom of God". They are opposites and incompatible. Were it not for the Holy Spirit, there would be no communication between the two.
And without this communication, the mind that makes the world would be truly damned...as in stuck...trapped.

When you think of the Kingdom of God, completely erase the world from your mind.
When your baptism is finished, the world will be completely erased from your mind.
The world will not be erased from your mind without your consent.
If you don't want the world to be erased from your mind, you don't really want to "overcome" the world.
If you don't want to overcome, you must succumb to it.
If you over come, you will be "the Lord".
If you succumb, the world will be your lord, and lord it over you.
The truth is, you are "the Lord".
This fact is "lost" within the world.
The world serves to teach you that you are not Lord.
It has fulfilled this function perfectly.
Now it is time to "repent".

Christ!

Originally posted by Locoman8
Ask yourself a simple question: Would a merciful God inflict excruciating pain and torment on human beings for millions and millions of years - throughout all eternity? Could the great Creator God of the universe be that unfeeling and uncaring?

Choose between the Kingdom of God and "the world".
The Kingdom of God is God's Kingdom.
The world is not God's Kingdom, nor part of it.
No part of the world can ever be made part of the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God existed before the world.
The Kingdom of God exists while the world seems to usurp it.
The Kingdom of God will exist after the world passes away.

Understand fully that the world is utterly temporary.
The world is a "time" opposed to Eternity.
Eternity is the "alpha and omega" of time.

To understand this, try to understand that what God has created is perfect.
And what is perfect does not change.
The perfect is whole, having and being everything.
The Kingdom of God is perfect and complete and everything.
The Kingdom of God is given to the "Son of God".
What the Son of God has, he also is.
The Son of God is the Kingdom of God.
In the Kingdom of God, the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father.
So,
Perfection has the attribute of Oneness.

"The world" is a concept beyond the Kingdom of God.
What is beyond perfection?
What is beyond truth?
What is beyond totality?
What is beyond magnitude?
What is beyond bliss?
What is beyond reality?
What is beyond infinity?
What is beyond freedom?
What is beyond everything?

The world answers all these questions.
The world is the answer to all these questions.
Who is asking these questions?
You are!
Who or what are you?
You are the Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God is "within" you.
The world is "without" you.

Let's back up one more time.
Only the Kingdom of God exists.
And it is perfect.
The world is a concept of what is beyond the Kingdom of God.
What is beyond the Kingdom of God does not exist.
What is beyond the Kingdom of God is reached for from within the Kingdom.
Imagine if you will, a circle containing everything.
Imagine a hand reaching beyond the circle to "gain" what is "out there".
As the hand reaches out, it reaches out to what is opposite and antithetical to it's existence.
As it reaches out, it seeks to "gain" what is beyond everything.
But what is beyond everything?
Nothing!
So it reaches out for nothing.
As it grabs nothing, it "loses" everything.
This is what it means "to gain the whole world is to lose your soul".
To gain a world of nothing, "soul" is sacrificed.
Essentially, the world is the sacrifice of truth.
Manhood is a concept beyond the Kingdom.
Manhood is a sacrifice of truth.
As truth is sacrificed, man "lives".
This also means,
As truth is sacrificed, lies live.
Man is essentially a lie, compared to "the Truth".
Man makes himself out to be "real".
However, reality is an attribute of the Kingdom of God, which is the truth.
So,
Man is a kind of "enemy" of God.
This is to say that, whatever is beyond the Kingdom of God is a kind of "enemy" of God.

The world begins as an attack on God.
The attack is not "within" the Kingdom.
The attack occurs "without" the Kingdom.
In this way, God really has no enemies.
What is "without" the Kingdom is out of its mind, so-to-speak.
What is "without" is a mind out of its mind.
This is a concept.
A concept is not a reality.
A concept can only be symbolized.
So,
The world is utterly made up of symbols, otherwise called "images".
Man is an "image"...a symbol of imagination.
Man symbolizes what is opposite the Kingdom of God.

Salvation is for the mind that imagines man is who or what it is.
Salvation is for a mind that imagines.
Salvation is for a mind that is terrorized by its own imagination.
Imagination, therefore, is the domain of "hell".
Hell is the domain of lies, or, "illusion".
Hell begins with a lie, and perpetuates on propaganda.
In hell, the genesis of man is merely propaganda.
Hell is a kind of war on the truth.
The first casualty of war is the truth.
So,
The truth is "slain before the foundation of the world".
It is only as the truth is "lost", "sacrificed", or otherwise made "dead" that the lie can "live".
Get it?

The world, therefore, is "hell" to "overcome".
Hell is beyond the Kingdom of God..."outside", as-it-were.
It is the realm of physical manifestation...teeth, worms...ect.
It is also the realm of conceptual manifestation...death, pain, suffering...ect.

Christ!

It is very simple really. That which is of higher vibration is divinity, there is no 'diety' since there is no 'worship' as some would say... How would I know? Cause Perfect Humility and Equality would not allow a worship, only return of Unconditional LOVE is the 'worship' and the giving of unconditional love to others. I like how someone said that God does not need to judge, cause and effect of existing brings about this justice (paraphrased).
No text are 'perfect'

reply to post by Christ!


You sound like someone trying to be equal to Jesus. Your opinions sound similar to that of the Sylvia Brown variety. I take the bible and things spoken in it literally other than those that are due the prophetic translations like Revelation. God is God. Christ is Christ. Heaven is Heaven. Earth is earth. Hell is death. Immortality is a gift granted by God when you resurrect at the return of Christ or 1000 years later.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Christ!

 

You sound like someone trying to be equal to Jesus. Your opinions sound similar to that of the Sylvia Brown variety. I take the bible and things spoken in it literally other than those that are due the prophetic translations like Revelation. God is God. Christ is Christ. Heaven is Heaven. Earth is earth. Hell is death. Immortality is a gift granted by God when you resurrect at the return of Christ or 1000 years later.

You should never take the word "literally"...literally.
Seriously, what does "literally" mean?
All that really matters is if we understand what is intended by the author.
Some authors intend that you be confused.
Other's are confused themselves, intending that you be as confused as they.
Yet other authors are not confused, and intend for you to be no longer confused.
When reading words, then, ask yourself if the author is confused.
If you think he is not confused, ask yourself what he intends to mean.

Jesus was not confused.
Those who heard him were...at first...and for a long time after.
In reading the bible, we must sort through confused minds who are doing their "best" to convey a message by one who was not confused.
It's not what they think Jesus meant.
It's what Jesus meant...what he intended for the confused to "know".

Sylvia is a bit confused.
She doesn't know how confused she is.
Her "guide" [Francis?] may not know how confused s/he is.
She doesn't intend to confuse.
She just can't help bringing others to her level of confusion.
She helps and hinders at the same time.
She is neutral.
Each will "learn" what s/he can from her...and move on.
Sylvia helps people reduce their fear of GoD.
Since the fear of GoD is part of the problem, it is also part of the solution.

Likewise, the individual authors of the bible.
Some are more confused, some less.
Some increase the fear of GoD.
Most increase or maintained the fear of God.
I recommend reading the gospel of John as the least confused, confusing.
However, the scribe of that gospel was not clear of all confusion the way Jesus was clear of confusion.

Clearing confusion is what "baptism" is all about.
This takes a willingness to understand.
The more you understand, the less time it takes.
The more willing you are to understand, the less time it takes...to be baptized completely.
If you are not willing, it could take several "generations".
"Generations" is just another word for "reincarnation"...or the continuation of the cycle of *change* which the confused always go through as they try to understand who they really are.
There are really not many reincarnations.
It's just one big confusing mess, punctuated by change.
Some of those changes involve "death".
But death is just a punctuation mark in a long sad epic of wandering away from Home.
Home is the Kingdom of God.
Sylvia does not describe the Kingdom of God.
She describes a home-away-from-home...in between incarnational changes.
It is not a place that is free of confusion about Self.


Christ!







[edit on 27-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Locoman8
God is God. Christ is Christ. Heaven is Heaven. Earth is earth. Hell is death. Immortality is a gift granted by God when you resurrect at the return of Christ or 1000 years later.

Guilt is hell.
Guilt is the basis of this world.
Because of guilt, the world is manifested...including the stars and planets.
Guilt is a lie, so all that it manifests is a lie.
The world is manifested to *justify* a lie.
So,
The world makes everyone in it seem guilty...look like fools...ect.
The world, then, is for making a mockery of the Son of God.
The gOd which makes "the world" is for mocking...impersonating...GoD.
gOd is not GoD.
And its saviors are not the Savior.
And its perfections are not Perfect.
And its christs are not Christ.

The Son of God is innocent.
There is none else.
There are no gOds beside the Son of God, save his Father and the Son's Sons.
They are all the same, equal in glory and power...all sinless.
All are immortal, granted to them in their *first coming*.
The first coming of the Sons of God are their "creation".
Their creation is the extention -sharing - of what is already perfect: GoD.

The coming of "gOd" destroys - theoretically - the first coming of the Son of "Our Father".
The coming of "gOd" is the coming of a dream.
The end of the dream is waking.
Waking and "resurrection" are the *same*.
The resurrection is the "second coming" of the Son of *Our Father*.
It is like a "new creation".
It seems "new" because the "old" seemed to be destroyed by the dream.
But the "old" was never destroyed.
The "original" could never be destroyed.
That is the "lesson" of Jesus' resurrection.
What is true for Jesus is true for the Son of God.
What is true for the Son of God is true for all of us.
The Son of God cannot be destroyed by the dream of gOd and another world.
Therefore, we will all awaken to the Son of God as Self.
We will find that we were always immortal, and only "died" in dreams.
But to awaken, we must believe that we are immortal.
To awaken, we must believe that we are the Son of God.
So, we must "believe in Christ".
This means we must believe in what we already are.
The dream starts by not believing in what we are.
That is why all 'sin' is unbelief in Christ. [see John chapter 16].
"Sin" is the realm of dreams, imagination, lies and illusion.
All such realms are *not the truth*.
The truth is: there is no sin because there are no such realms.
When we awaken, all such realms will be as if they never were.

Your sleeping is "the exile of Christ".
So,
Your awakening is "the return of Christ".
This is why resurrection and the return of Christ as associated.
But you are not yet associating them as intended by Jesus.
When you associate them like Jesus, you will "rise" like Jesus.
There is no "1000 years later".
Your sleeping in the beginning of time.
Your waking is the end of time.
When you resurrect, time is no longer your "reality".
Resurrection is the escape from time...which is a "tomb" from the "womb".
Your sleeping is the dawn of man.
Your awakinging is the dawn of yourSelf...Christ!

So,
"know thy Self".
Start by believing in Christ.



Christ!



[edit on 27-2-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by Locoman8
John 3:13 "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Hi, Locoman8!

I wanted to Post Mathhew 27: 50-53 and ask what your opinion was concerning these dead saints which were resurrected at the death of Christ, coming out of their tombs and going about into the city. What do you think happened to them? Do you believe they were sent back to their tombs and back to sleep (death)?

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept [who were dead] arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many .

reply to post by jdposey


That verse seems to give the impression of resurrected saints but just reading the context, you can figure out that the graves opened up due to the quakeing of the earth and the bodies of the saints were exposed to Judea. It says nothing of these bodies coming to life and being raised to heaven. That's a good one though. The strongest argument yet.

Originally posted by jdposey
Mathhew 27: 50-53

just a quick comment about this passage. something i dont think people realize about this passage is that if it was literally the resurrection of saints, that it would raise more questions than it would answer.

for example.

- why isnt there more written about this event? none of the gospel writers elaborate on this account which brings into question whether or not it really was worth elaborating on.

- lazarus´sister wasnt corrected when she said that she knew that he would be raised in the ¨final day¨. the final day was not jesus´death.

- jesus said to the thief that he would see him in paradise. the church presumes that jesus said ¨, today i will see you in paradise¨ instead of ¨today, i will see you in paradise.¨

lets assume for a second that the church is right. the thief couldnt be resurrected to earth because it wasnt a paradise. so the church presumes that he was resurrected to heaven. but jesus wouldnt be in heaven for another 40 plus days. so we have a contradiction. however lets assume that the church is right again and the thief was in heaven. why would the thief be in heaven, and the saints be resurrected to earth? sound abit odd?

lets assume that the church is wrong. the thief is in his grave waiting for resurrection in the final days. then jesus was not lying. but that also means that saints would not be resurrected. 1- it would serve no purpose. 2- it would be abit silly to resurrect them, let them walk around and then have them die again (since there is no mention of them after). a 3– those in the new covenant with christ could not be considered firstfruits, even though they are called that

so either way, it doesnt make sense that they were resurrected

Firstly, if you read Ecclesiastes, it speaks of the soul and the spirit as being two separate entities.

Man ... has a body and a soul ... it is a spirit, immortal, and endowed with intelligence and free will. Soul is not just another word for spirit. Animals have souls, but their souls are not spirits. Only man's soul is a spirit; in man is the only kind of spirit that is a soul.... There is an obvious difference between a living human body and a corpse. That difference is the soul.

Soul and spirit not the same

I have written extensively on this topic. You can view my thread here: Soul Vs.Spirit

Now, I must interject and say that I do not completely agree with the source that I cited. I do believe that animals have a spirit, but I do agree with his conclusion that the soul and spirit are diametrically different.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Firstly, if you read Ecclesiastes, it speaks of the soul and the spirit as being two separate entities.

actually no, eccl says the spirit (breath or life force, not soul) returns to god.

also genesis states that adam became a soul, not given one.

Originally posted by miriam0566
actually no, eccl says the spirit (breath or life force, not soul) returns to god.

Exactly, but it states that the "soul" dies with the body. The soul is completely different than the spirit

[edit on 3-3-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by jdposey

 

That verse seems to give the impression of resurrected saints but just reading the context, you can figure out that the graves opened up due to the quakeing of the earth and the bodies of the saints were exposed to Judea. It says nothing of these bodies coming to life and being raised to heaven. That's a good one though. The strongest argument yet.

That is incorrect. You said that the scripture says nothing about the bodies coming to life, but it clearly reads:
Graves were opened
Bodies of saints which slept [ who were dead] arose [ came to life-resurrection]
Went into the holy city [indicating living, walking saints]
Appeared to many

reply to post by miriam0566


It may not make sense that these saints were resurrected, but the fact is clear, by way of ths scripture being present, there was indeed a resurrection which took place, that can not be denied and, if you will, these dead saints, came to life as a witness to everyone around, that Jesus Christ had indeed conquered the grave.

I have always thought it was interesting that this incident is not mentioned anywhere else, and you would think something of this magnitude would catch the attention of many, yet, it is something which little is said about, neatly tucked away within scripture which you hear very few people even bring to light.

Nonetheless, when Christ arose from the dead, these saints also arose and if Christ ascended into heaven, I am of the opinion that he did not leave these resurrected saints to go back to the tombs and back into death [sleep]. I am of the opinion that these were the old testament saints who were housed in the lower regions of the earth, Paradise, where Jesus said the thief would go, and when Christ arose from the dead, He led all these saints out of Paradise and into Heaven with him.

So according to Matthew 27: 52-53, there has already been one resurrection take place.


[edit on 3/4/2009 by jdposey]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by miriam0566
actually no, eccl says the spirit (breath or life force, not soul) returns to god.

Exactly, but it states that the "soul" dies with the body. The soul is completely different than the spirit

[edit on 3-3-2009 by SpeakerofTruth]

im not sure then what is the significance of what you are saying. if the body and soul (who you are) die and the force that animates you (like electricity through a computer) returns to god, then what is it your saying?

sorry, maybe im reading you wrong...

Originally posted by jdposey
It may not make sense that these saints were resurrected, but the fact is clear, by way of ths scripture being present, there was indeed a resurrection which took place, that can not be denied and, if you will, these dead saints, came to life as a witness to everyone around, that Jesus Christ had indeed conquered the grave.

actually it only says they arose. your assuming that that meant resurrection.

and yes it can be denied because dead bodies coming up after an earthquake has happened. several times.

I have always thought it was interesting that this incident is not mentioned anywhere else, and you would think something of this magnitude would catch the attention of many, yet, it is something which little is said about, neatly tucked away within scripture which you hear very few people even bring to light.

i do think that the obscurity of the passage says mountains about the scripture.

Nonetheless, when Christ arose from the dead, these saints also arose and if Christ ascended into heaven, I am of the opinion that he did not leave these resurrected saints to go back to the tombs and back into death [sleep]. I am of the opinion that these were the old testament saints who were housed in the lower regions of the earth, Paradise, where Jesus said the thief would go, and when Christ arose from the dead, He led all these saints out of Paradise and into Heaven with him.

nevermind that it completely conflicts with everything the bible says about resurrection and death, no matter which side you take in the debate.

reply to post by miriam0566


Well, these bodies arose and went into the city . I think it is obvious that they were alive and walking . No matter how you read it.