My take on Zeitgeist: Addendum and The Venus Project. Please read!

You folks argue over BS and the whole world is going to choke on your cynicism!!!!
Jacque is FREAKIN 91 !!!!! 91 !!! and him and roxanne meadows are basically poor. Stop the damn trolling and start creating NEW IDEAS on how to adapt and integrate technology into our society. Remember....WE are the PRINCIPAL and TRUE VALUE in this economy, not money or accounts or corporations. Wake up guys, stop your %^@$% fighting and bickering about who is smarter or who can provide the most footnotes. Its time for some damn change and placing this tech into the hands of already corrupt corporations is not one of them. Did you folks know that the energy industry was deregulated by congress?? It is written into public law to secure funding for new, clean and renewable sources of energy to further the development of mankind. NOT PROFITS!!!!!!

These are WONDERFUL post debates and arguments that can really open the discussion, since we are all open-minded individuals really looking and opening the possibilities OF this addendum, venus project idea.
The way that I understood and heard this model that is being looked at by the named project, I felt, was CLEARLY giving signposts to work from and toward as an EMERGENT symbiosis of what clearly would be a CONTINUAL revelation, and maybe even revoltion and revolution SIMPLY and UTTERLY as a response to the inevitability of collapse of the economic system, in the U.S. and worldwide, the degradation of intelligence, due to wearying fears and greed by both the money elitists who own media and the two party systems as they exist now, THE suppression of SHARED technologies and ideologies that SOLVE the problems that we have created courts of laws and policing and even spying... in the name of God OR survival of the elitists agendas... to BE the ones who advertise scarcity...
If it would be possible to give these ideas to one another for the highest of ALL concerned, and STARTING with grassroots self-sufficiency, integrity and responsibility, in concert with a larger and ever-expansive and elegant view offered, as it is SO FAR, that it IS overseen by those who are in TOUCH with these movements of solar and other energy resources that are ever-being-inspired by visionaries, artists and science advances daily, unimposed by vying factions for the gas giants greedy and overwhelming presence, farming and eating REAL FOOD instead of all the fast and CHEAP "foods"...
We are faced with suppression and debt, and the respond-ability to these is to work to create and maintain ideas and livelihoods that are in direct correlation to the practical and even moral confrontations that are before us now, by joining with those who want to be of REAL service, to make that service RELEVANT and in direct proportion to an understanding and a more intimate relationship with the needs for good, clean drinking water, self-sustainability, farms, and community in which work can be the pleasure and leisure, a sincere response-ability to take on GREATER responsibilities, to ensure that the HEART of the problems are being addressed and SOLVED by you and I, BECAUSE WE CAN, and not in order to create and maintain a FIXED solvency where perfection is ALWAYS the inspiration in conspiracy with the readiness and applied flexibility as it changes NATURALLY, and in the confidence that -I- want a working and integral and joyfully easing association with my world...
and that THAT world is up to and BEGINS... with ME... and you, as you would enjoy it most where YOU are in your mind and life association and perspective.
I think to EXCLUDE religion is not a helpful or even a hopeful POINT in the demonstration by the ADDENDUM video. Religion, for me, as I have a brainwashing experience of being a mormon, in the excluding of OTHER people who are NOT mormon, and the THIS is the only way fairytale...
I think it's ALL an abomination. But, I think in EVERY religion, with perhaps some exceptions, they SHARE, at their core, the values of unconditional love and a VISION to let the momentum of our applied ideas as they are practiced in government and by our banks, to be "hijacked" by NEW and innovative partnerships that address the HEART of the essence of living and taking care of one another as our own selfs.
The Laws of religion should be those that are natural, and that give to the poor and to abolish scarcity once and for all, by the natural and immediately needful approaches that can be addressed and SOLVED by wishing EVERONE to have exactly what they want or need, when they need it. EVERYONE is unique and has a trust and ability to FOLLOW that trust and innovation to BE and ACT UPON the being and living that is NEXT in the information that is coming as changing and evolvling models, AS they become evident from where one is, joined with a WHOLE INTEREST.

I have to go with the 'cosmic pixie' on this one; so-called 'belief systems' are just that: SYSTEMS, and systems, as we know them, in our dumbed-down, un-evolved, monetary/religious society, only serve to control us and keep us from truly evolving into our full potential as humans; of course Fresco's claims are going to seem outlandish to some people, since all people are psychologically awash in our current sociological system set...

religious 'beliefs', therefore, are merely a subtle form of self-bondage; there is a better, purer way to experience and understand ourselves, the world, and the universe -- free from dogmas, myth, and irrelevant ideologies; if you listen to the supplemental interviews with Fresco, he states that if there were certain groups of people that wanted to maintain an old belief structure and form communities as such, that the Venus Project would support them -- but the support would be based upon the same, universal, resource-based culture, which made best use of technology to monitor the changing abundance and scarcity of the globe's resources; under those circumstances, there would be no reason for any 2 different groups to want to fight each other, since everyone would have what they needed to survive..

some folks here have suggested that in such a society, power-hungry people would still rise to power and seek to control everyone else; let's think about that for a second: what holds these people up now? all that holds them up is our slavery to the monetary system, and our willingness to be controlled; nothing more... without money or laws, there would be no power to seize or yield...

we need to all start thinking out of the box; Fresco's ideas can't be compared to communism, since communism assumes monetaryism as its foundational structure..

there's a good chance that all our money will be worthless soon anyway, so we may find out by default how a world like that would be; I, for one, think it would be much better.

reply to post by volitionawareness


You think you don't have a set of beliefs? You think you don't live under a system of beliefs? Apparently, you're set of beliefs requires everyone to belong to your set of beliefs, and if you have beliefs that aren't in line with that, you shouldn't be allowed to those beliefs?

That sounds pretty familiar. Where have I heard such talks before? Oh yeah - the Spanish inquisition.

So apparently, you don't have a problem with people who push their beliefs on others. You just have a problem with what people believe.

sure, we all 'believe' things; but the goal is to continue to be open to the emergent nature of reality and the earth, and be as open as possible to change -- hence, holding onto archaic belief systems inhibits us from walking in line with that emergent and constantly changing reality...

what I 'believe' now will seem silly in the future -- not only to others, but to me as well; Freseco says himself in subsequent interviews that the goal is not for people to hold up his version of reality, but to make their own -- to continue to evolve; he's offering an alternative to a current system that clearly doesn't work; and that system is built upon, as part of its foundation, religious institutions; people can 'believe' whatever they want; the danger lies in the deadly combination of the institution perpetuating irrelevant belief systems, while the individual continues to deny the emergent function of natural law;

it takes a lot of work to keep believing something which has been dis-proved repeatedly; as Fresco says, people should rejoice in being proven wrong, because they grow and evolve..

I don't have the answers, but I imagine most of us can agree that what's going on now ain't workin'!!

I can think that the great religions of this world are irrelevant -- I do think that; but that doesn't mean that I aim to persecute and ridicule people who hold up those belief systems; and neither does the Venus Project..

Fresco said himself that 'we can never acheive perfection'... but his idea... 'is a lot better'

reply to post by volitionawareness


This society is not built upon religious beliefs. It's built upon the worship of false idols all across the world. The only thing that has been disproven is what the people who use the symbolism and images of the religion have told people. Nothing in the philosophy or understanding has been proven wrong.

You point fingers at the religion ABOUT jesus. That would be those who worship the false idol. Those who believe that worshipping an image or symbol like the cross is a free ride into heaven. That is the lie. And that lie is pushed out to keep people from understanding the philosophy under the words. To read between the lines so to speak. If you can not see past the words to understand what is being said, then that is what it means to be blind.

In recorded history the same basic philosophical questions have been here. For all our technological advances, those same questions go unanswered and in todays world are all but ignored by science. These all have to do with what is your consciousness, which you may have seen expressed in a picture that shows a little person inside a brain.

People want to focus on the stuff that doesn't even matter. As if the bible is wrong because the universe is more than 6000 years old. And that is merely focusing on the image/material of whats said. Like an exact fact was the important part. It doesn't matter to me how old it is, truth about certain things is truth for eternity. It's only our understanding and ways of expressing it that change.

You can straight up prove Jesus never existed and I won't care. Because it's not the image of Jesus I embrace. It's the teachings and philosophy of his I know for a fact from personal experience it is true.

How would you like it if you're beliefs were all pushed into your image, and then people worshiped your image rather than holding your beliefs? That is what the church and powers have done. Would it be right to discard all your beliefs and teachings because people used your image to do bad things? Well thats basically what is going on here - on purpose I might add(not you directly, on a whole).

There's a big difference between the Religion about Jesus, and the religion of Jesus. And let me tell you, it's not much fun having to explain to people what the difference is, or having the things the people who worship false idols have done and said thrown on you.

Tell me what Jesus did or said that was false. Not what the church has done and said, but what teachings of Jesus are false.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by badmedia]

acually, I didn't use the word Jesus at all in my last post -- I don't know where you're getting that; I was only trying to point out the diffference between an emergent culture and an established one, and that the religious institutions are part of the establishment which holds up irrelevant ideologies -- or, rather, to paraphrase what you described, the establishment replaces the inner essence of a tradition with the idols and dogmas, which keep people in bondage...

either way, I wasn't making any note of any particular religion; I feel you are projecting that onto my statements; which is okay, of course; I just want to point that out; my feeling is that all the upheld institutions of our current social system should be broken down and reworked -- including financial, governmental, educational, and religious...

again... not the people... the institutions; there is a fundamental difference; if your version of the essence of Jesus, for example, was used as the model for the renovation of the Christian institution, perhaps said institution would finally be able to wash the blood off its hands from the last 2000 years..

reply to post by volitionawareness


I just mention Jesus because it's more popular in our culture. It happens around the world with all religions. When you see 2 religions fighting, it's always the image and idols they fight over, rather than the teachings and understandings. If they followed the teachings and understandings, they would see similiarities rather than the differences they see in imagery - which are shaped to fit the culture, just as we are shaped to fit our culture.

It also goes beyond just religion, it's the status quo for most everything. Look on the US dollar bills. The people put on those bills were all people against the creation of something like a federal bank.

And of course, even the US, where flag worship is considered patriotic, but if you bring up the constitution and the things this country was founded on, then you are called anti-American.

It's what people who want to misled people do. Hide behind something that is good, take the symbolism and manipulate the symbolism. Once people notice the things are bad, blame them on the symbols, and attach to anything new which will appear and do it again.

Wasn't trying to project anything on you, but it's just what happens over and over and when you say "religion", then my culture brings up Jesus in my explanation. This kind of stuff is even talked about in the bible, and probably also in other religions.

I'm very much against the things that have been done in the name of god/religion. But I'm not ready to throw away everything because of it. Their actions certainly do not go in hand with my beliefs, quite the opposite.

Also, any institute which forms in the name of Jesus is likely to be bad. Jesus taught the people they were the authority, not the people who head such institutions. Organized religion blows. The religion of Jesus is not about Jesus himself, it's about the understanding and connection with god, or as it is called a personal relationship with god.



[edit on 27-10-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by 1011010110


The idea isn't to deny religion, but to blow away the fog of ignorence it creates. It is truly and completely within the realm of mysticism and while I can believe in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny and Beetle Juice I still realize that, to think they are actually real is both ludacris and the most disgusting form of self-deceit. The hard facts are, is that religion advocates a backwards and ignorant view of the world. If it were the only thing you were exposed to, you'd likely believe some rather awkward things (not the mention the size of the bag of rocks you'd be carrying with you if you'd ever take a visit to San Fransisco.)

But obviously, you know for a FACT that the world isn't flat, and most certainly wasn't created as late in the universe's history as the bible suggests, right? That is because of a logical education. And obviously, in the average Christian mind, both exist; one as a theological belief, while the other is a historical fact. And in such a system, religion wouldn't be forcefully removed, but instead, would naturally phase out on their own as the truth of history and science lights up the darkest corners of our mysterious universe and the reality we exist there on.

But anyways, to respond to the original post. The cold fact is, is that our monetary system is on a downward spiral of inescapable collapse. With this option exposed in a world where information travels from one spot in the world to clear a cross in a matter of seconds, we can spread the word that there will be another option than the same old crap. And in the elegant design of the Venus Project, one working city can quickly expand. In such a society as a resource based one, and given the obvious accessability we have in renewable energy, such a city would create surplus. This surplus can be used to expand as the numbers of people throw away chains of ignorance.

And when that time does (The addendum movie claims that it is projected the fail of the monetary system at 2010.) we, as a human race will have a decision to make, step backwards or step forward. After having our dirty American corporate hands in just about every country's cookie jar, in that, many of their economies are based off of ours, this collapse will likely be world wide. And when you are going hungry because you can't afford food, you can't afford a home, you can't afford hardly anything at all, what choice do you think you will find more appealing? You do realize that the Master plan of these NWO villians is to have computer chips in everybody? Such a thing would give them TOTAL control. To control your very livelyhood without any restrictions, to be able to remove you from the system completely if you step out of line. And assuming that such a plan doesn't go through, what makes you think these men will stop? The horrible truth is that if these men can get a president into office without a problem, move American emotion through Propaganda and out right murder (9/11), what makes you think they won't eventually be able to implement a similar system of control?

Invariably as technology grows, so too do the tools of our indentured slavery. There will be a point where these villians will attempt to make this a permanant arrangement. What will happen when robotic technology reachs the crux of robotic soldiers? Even outright rebellion will be eradicated until all that is left are those that are willing to be slaves. We have a critical moment moving ever closer to us, and it will be here whether we are ready or not. When the controls slip and this system collapses, we, as a species will have our chance to make the choice between the world of the past, or a chance at a radically better future. The most disgusting and dishonorable institution is one that chooses material wealth and profit over human life and our very world and that's the point.

reply to post by badmedia

But that is what they talk about in the movie, that sometimes an illusion of a shortage of resources is created in order to raise prices (profit). Is what we are living today with the gas crisis, some say is scarce others say there is plenty of it and we all pay the price. My only problem with the Venus Project is that maybe Jacque Fresco is honest in his complete design but will the people that come after will be faithful to his vision or twisted either back to what is was with more control or to their own vision.

reply to post by cetta


There are two things to notice when one watches the Zeitgeist films: (1) the philosophy or the ideas being expressed are simply analyze everything, question everything, use and expand your knowledge of everything, and come up with ideas on your own by knowing and studying the facts and (2) some one is simply putting a theory that they have that fits their own theory and/or plan of how to fix this planet with this mindset.
For arguments sake I do not think that some of these things can happen the way Jacque Fresco would want them to. It may start off peaceful, and we can gain some leeway by boycotting the banks and what not. But this will simply not be enough, even with the financial crisis that is facing this world. I have two views of human kind. One is that we have the potential to live amongst ourselves in peace (for the most part because confrentation is in still embeded underneath our cortex - we can not get away from pure animal instincts if you ever want to - its in your brain). The other is that the only way we can reach that potential there will be violence because the Illuminati , the Bourgeoisie, the existing institutions, and what have you will not allow such a social (first having to be a MENTAL REVOLUTION on a mass scale by all the industrial countries) revolution. Their money and power and greed are generations deep. If we are to do anything there will have to be violence simply because (as the video states several times) as long as we are in a monetary system peoples behaviors become unethical, unreasonable, selfish, violent, and primitive.
I am an optimist, I think the glass is half full...but someone else drank the other half! What I mean by this is there is hope for sure but it will not be an easy task and that is for sure.
People are upset by many different things and see things happening around them that they know are wrong. The point is that we are all searching for something. We all need to find a common cause. Nothing of importance ever gets done with organizations of a few thousand members and picket signs. Slavery did not end that way. Civil Rights did not happen that way (some are still fighting for they view as their Civil Rights). We all have one thing in common when it comes to these issues at hand: WE WANT THE TRUTH! We want a system that works more efficiently and cares about the people instead of the dollar. We want a better quality of life - we don't need to be consuming poisons in our drinking water. And if we get sick we should get appropriate health care...no exceptions. We want to be able to know we have a secure and bright future. We want ourselves, our children, and all to reach their potential to better all of our lives.
Can all of us, all the different people, with all the different views, with all the different colors, find a common ground and unite for something that is greater than ourselves? This will be the greatest challenge of our life time...it will be the greatest challenge of humankind ever. But we have nothing to lose because # is about to hit the fan anyways and sooner or later we will all be in trouble. Come together and fight for a cause. It will come down to a fight, maybe not now, or 10, or 20, or 50 years but it will happen. It is en-evadable.
So in the mean time...forget everything that you have heard and open your mind. Take time to appreciate, to explore, to investigate, to expand your psyche. Realize what it is that you think and believe. Question everything until you find your own truth!

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by badmedia

 

But that is what they talk about in the movie, that sometimes an illusion of a shortage of resources is created in order to raise prices (profit). Is what we are living today with the gas crisis, some say is scarce others say there is plenty of it and we all pay the price. My only problem with the Venus Project is that maybe Jacque Fresco is honest in his complete design but will the people that come after will be faithful to his vision or twisted either back to what is was with more control or to their own vision.

I don't think Fresco is out to enslave people. For the most part, outside of when greed takes hold of a person, I think people are just looking to do what is the best and right thing to do.

In general, when I deal with pro big government people, it's always the same story. They see these things being implemented always as being the good they would create with it. How it would be if they were in charge and had to create the "perfect" system.

But as you point out, the worry is not usually with the person who creates the system, it is in what the people who come after will have the power to do, and what they have available to them to do.

And when things are centralized into the control of a few, then it is much more available for the people who gain power later. And as you have already agreed to give them control, it is near impossible to get them to give up that control, except through the use of force - which is not good. When things are decentralized(power to the people), then you have taken away the power and abilities of such corruption.

It is no coincidence that the powers that be of today want to centralize things. They don't care what excuse is given for it, what fear they must play on to get it, they just want that power.

I wish people would think more small scale. Where these things are done over communities instead of the entire world.

Well I finally watched this. Nice movie. Anyway as it is right now this reminds me of larger scale but, more advanced Native American Culture. In a lot of ways even when all those pilgrims arrived the Indians had a more evolved sense of self than our culture has today. Misuse of land wasn't an issue, gays weren't an issue, religion wasn't an issue, They viewed the land as extensions of themselves so nothing was wasted and nothing was destroyed.

For something like this to be implemented though it would have to start on a small scale. I know many are afraid of being in a land that is controlled by the type of Governments that we have today with this. I think that is what isn't seen as much because these old ways will have to be abandoned. Politicians nor Corporations can lead to this in their present form. They might try with some sort of forced system but, that isn't what it is all about.

Capitalism has failed and even though our original founding fathers wanted something different it was too easy for the large bankers and Corporations to get involved and cause so much corruption that things cannot be fixed until everything tumbles down. From top to bottom it a lumbering giant of its former self and an attempt to fix anything comes at the expense of it all falling down.

Humans as programmed right now though I just do not think this is possible because for the most part in this day and time the majority are in infancy regarding a sense of being connected to things and people around us. We have rampaged though life out of sheer greed and selfishness and at the same time worked on destroying the things that give us life in the first place. We are for the most part still cave men with clothes now with designer caves (houses).

hi i am new to this but i couldnt help but notice that everyone has to think outside the box for once. all yiou can think about is whats in it for me but you cannot be thinking like that look at the past for incetance, all of the scientists back then had to hide from being killed for going against the chirch. some died and some lived. but what they all had in common was that they where right and we have proven it. think about those kids on tv starving. wouldnt that make you happy in some way knowing that they will have clothes, food and shelter. watch the movies again but watch them with openmindness and really think about what he has to say

reply to post by caballero


If you really consider communism to be the best thing for humanity, you're awfully wrong my friend ! It just shows people never learn and keep repeating the same mistakes over and over. I am from Romania, an ex-communist country, and if you take time to inquire you'll discover all the atrocities committed (communism can't exist - it's utopia ). PEOPLE (the majority) need someone to guide them. You can't abolish law and the elite ! Who will set the values !!! This translates (the venus movement) into anarchy. I enjoy punk music , but believe me! you don't want anarchy! In fact , everything might be just a clever way for the powerful to get even more power. That guy, the founder, are we to expect him to treat everyone as his equal, or will he be the new Gugu , the mighty Dali Lama reborn of the venus project and so generously not take credit for it. Wake up ! the ideas seem good but they got it wrong ! Now is not the time, humanity isn't ready to shed religion, dissolve armies and work together (maybe in 4000 years... MAYBE) Maybe after oil runs out and USA loosens her grip on the world , or there will be no world to loosen the grip on. They build concrete domes in Florida for 3-4 persons but what will they do in Island and where will they put the chinese (or they don't fit in the picture ? or will 3-4 bombs suffice ?) My advice : try leaving america to see the real world ! maybe then you'll all understand the gravity of the situation ! MAYBE

reply to post by 1011010110
"it is better to have ideas than beliefs" Albert Einstein. Beliefs imply an inability to deal with new information that may condradict one's beliefs and from their lead to the sorry record of ALL religions as clearly negative forces throughout human history. I think Jaques Fresco is not advocating a forced ban on "wrong thinking" but is working on the assumption that if we collectively commit to following the trail of truth no matter where it leads, our evolutionary path will be clearer and we will have the courage and wisdom to abandon negative and false beliefs.

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First, R. Buckminster Fuller came up with the Zeitgeist vision many decades ago, calling it a 'Design Science Revolution'. Like the Zeitgeist Movement, he did not call for any force to be used to create it, but just a change of mind through education and popular support.

Only a good means can create a good end.

Let those who object to the Zeitgeist Movement's vision propose something better. (if they can see through their fear of everything, anyway)

As for waiting a few hundred years... sorry, we don't have that time. Adapt or Die is the real law of Nature, and humans have been abusive of Nature for too long already. The current Mass Extinction Event is completely man made, and we could be caught up in it just as easily as the Dinosaurs were caught up in their extinction. In fact, if it gets bad enough, we certainly will be.

Fear is the mindkiller and the mindbinder and the vision blurrer....

Nobody cares about anyone's religion, except those who have power in those religions who would gladly kill anyone who disagrees with them. Look at the history of religions... It was, for one instance, a Pope who said, "Kill them all and let God sort them out'. and thousands were slaughtered.

Jesus, btw, forbid praying in crowds and in public. But who cares, right, Christians? Look in your bible and stop listening to preachers!

Nobody I know condemns the teachings of the source teachers of religions, only the dogma that has grown up around those teachings, which, like Christianity, have become cycles of Pius horror and slaughter.

I love Jesus. I love all the heavy teachers in the past. They all taught the same stuff... 'take care of each other'.

Which is what the Zeitgeist Movement is all about.

I don't think many of the people on this thread really understand much about the Zeitgeist Movement's vision. Many of the messages imply or state things which are really totally NOT part of the vision expressed. Nobody in the Zeitgeist videos said anything about making Laws to suppress anything. In fact, it is said many times that there will be nothing like LAWs after the Transformation. And that there will be no need for that kind of stupidity.

I have been part of the vision, although not the Zeitgeist organization, for decades because I caught the possibilities way back when from R. Buckminster Fuller.

I have to laugh when I hear someone call it a 'utopia'... To a serf slave in the Dark Ages, middle class living in America would be considered a 'utopia'... lol

The key is learning Universe, which we all have done to some degree in our lives. Everyone here knows more about Nature, Technology, the World, the Universe, than all the people put together in past generations.

It changes the common assumptions in daily life, even now. You don't 'disbelieve' your car when you get in to drive somewhere, right? Because we all have common knowledge and agreements as to what a car is, how it works, and how to drive it. And because it is so poorly designed, it destroys our environment and kills thousands in car wreaks every year. The Zeitgeist movement just wants to run with the common assumptions to a better place, rather than let economics and power brokers freeze us into global suicide.

Not hard to understand. The details will be evolved as we go, from the common knowledge and agreements of all the people. Nothing is set in stone.

How much subconscious fear do you have in your mind? How much does it 'filter' your perceptions and thoughts? How tight a grip does the money system and the government have on your opinions? You do realize that to oppose it or agree with it are the same thing, right? It has your mind either way.

I got so much more to say... but I won't, so have at it...

Originally posted by Worldmind


Which is what the Zeitgeist Movement is all about.

Nothing is set in stone.

How much subconscious fear do you have in your mind? How much does it 'filter' your perceptions and thoughts? How tight a grip does the money system and the government have on your opinions? You do realize that to oppose it or agree with it are the same thing, right? It has your mind either way.

I am sorry to disagree as that is my option. I find so many flaws in such a program that it does not fit my world view. As everyone has different world views and thats the point. This project is just that. A project of controling the world view it sets forth. If you disagree, which is what I do, then according to this program I MUST be reprogramed into thinking the way the PROgram thinks. Where is the natural law of thought in that. As far as I am concerned, it all crap until a working model is place so we can discern the proper way of moral thought. What I see with this scam is the control of you and your thoughts or be programed to think that way, Being an indivdual and having my own thoughts and moral values, I can not see it ever working or ever producing a product that will benifit the whole. I say its a scam, one because it does not have a working model, and it is a type of system that like a pryamid. If you are at the top of the triangle you will benifit from this, but if you are the one desinated to clean the toilets of the ones on the top , where is the freedom to be the ones at the top of so said program and project. Where is the incentive to do well and get rewarded for good judgement. Like now , I do things for people who need things and a free cycle to keep things out of landfills. I do this for free. Start your own and do for others, than yourself, its good karma. No where do I see a moral code and law that says this is not or this is accepted and that is no way to ask people to live. From what I have read in what the project is about, I see they want to control birth of your child. And if you have to many then what?. What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.

Originally posted by zman
I am sorry to disagree as that is my option. I find so many flaws in such a program that it does not fit my world view. As everyone has different world views and thats the point. This project is just that. A project of controlling the world view it sets forth. If you disagree, which is what I do, then according to this program I MUST be reprogramed into thinking the way the PROgram thinks.

Where in the blazes did you read that? Nobody will be 'reprogrammed' into anything. You haven't read much about it, right? It's not about intimidation or control... it's about making things work better. It's about using technology on a more comprehensive scale so there is enough to let everyone in the world have anything they want and do it in an environmentally sane way.

What you have described is what is done now, in the existing systems, and what the extremists of various kinds want to do. The Zeitgeist Movement has nothing similar to that within it. period.

(More in next message)