The reason the church is afraid of Science

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by riley

 

riley, one more time...what are you saying?

Please clarify your position..ok? please...

OT confused???

Gnostic christianity is where lucifer (bringer of light) is actually seen as a liberator of humanity and god is seen as an oppressor of it (keeping man in darkness).

Originally posted by hlesterjerome
Well,

Science has given us pretty much all of our advancements in the last 200 years.

Try the last 200,000 years, and even before that. Some of mankinds earliest technological achievements were made before modern humans even arrived on the scene. Some of our technology we borrowed from other hominid species like Neanderthal. While it wasn't "science" in the traditional methodology, the basics of the process were still in place even without the structure.

Also, OldThinker, your link is wrong.

"Kennedy and Newcombe also argue that science has it roots in Christianity."

No. Science as a methodology actually started about a thousand years ago with Ibn Al-Haytham. He was an Islamic philosopher and scholar who first set the basic methodology which would become the scientific method. He was also the father of modern optics.

Ibn al-Haytham is regarded as the "father of modern optics"[10] for his influential Book of Optics (written while he was under house arrest), which correctly explained and proved the modern intromission theory of vision. He is also recognized so for his experiments on optics, including experiments on lenses, mirrors, refraction, reflection, and the dispersion of light into its constituent colours.[11] He studied binocular vision and the Moon illusion, described the finite speed[12][13] of light, and argued that it is made of particles[14] travelling in straight lines.[13][15] Due to his formulation of a modern quantitative and empirical approach to physics and science, he is considered the pioneer of the modern scientific method[16][17] ~ Wikipedia

However, his discoveries in optics and his formation of the scientific method do not hold their accreditation to the fact that he was an Islamic adherant. Just as none of the discoveries in genetics by Kenneth Miller are due to the fact that he's a Christian, or that none of the discoveries in Palentology by Robert Bakker is due to him being a Pentecostal.

Science requires faith, too. Columbus had faith to believe the world was round, Einstein had faith he could find a formula for Energy, etc. ~ Alexander_Supertramp

LOL WUT? You might wanna do some fact checking there. Columbus proving the world was round is just a fairy tale.

You can’t tell me these church-sites aren’t SCIENCE-BASED can you???

If YOU choose to read…and not ignore, sir?

www.answersingenesis.org...

www.creationism.org...

www.rzim.org...

/facepalm

[edit on 1-10-2008 by Lasheic]

The bottom line is this:

The church (when applied correctly) has a great impact on this earth…

Science, too…has taught us miraculous things…

THEY ARE NOT OPPOSED TO ONE ANOTHER….!!!!!!!

Truth is TRUTH…no matter who finds it…

Skeptics, have you seen…

www.godscare.net...

www.freerepublic.com...

www.foxnews.com...

www.foxnews.com...

= = = = =

It’s a big world…very complicated…very complex….huh?

Life (lived LONG enough) teaches much…stay tuned…you’ll see…eventually, ok?

OT Honored to be apart of this discussion…

reply to post by riley


OK...some believe this ALTERNATIVE take....u don't right????

The angel of light, satan...is a deciever...A LOSER!!!!!!

He made the wrong decision....

He opposed God, right?????????

I won't....haven't...will never do!!!!

Am i delusional????

Have you ever read the Apostle Paul where he said...to the VERY VERY sinful city of Corinth...

II Cor 4:4 - "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

He's a liar...but VERY SMART...WATCH OUT...ok?

OT (Praying)

reply to post by OldThinker


In regards to Anthony Flew, correspondence between him and fellow atheists (which has been published on the web) reveals that he's really not... all... there... you know? He doesn't have a definitive stance on the subject, and often still flip-flops between Atheism and Deism when hard pressed. Further, he's not exactly the mouthpiece for the "atheist movement" - because like all Atheists he's only an individual. It's not his "conversion" is comparable to the Pope denouncing Christianity in any fashion.

Further, I don't think you have a firm grasp on what Deism is. Deism isn't a religion, it's more of a personal and individual philosophy - much like Atheism. That he is now what one would consider a Deist is by NO means any sort of a support or promotion to organized religions. Thomas Paine, one of histories most famous Deists, wrote "Age of Reason" in which he condemns organized religion - especially Christianity, and he was subsequently labeled an Atheist and deionized for the rest of his life. I would also consider myself a Deist. I believe in god, and a creator god at that. And that's really all there is to it. That's the entire religion in a nutshell. Science, Technology, and Reason will lead me the rest of the way.

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by riley

 

OK...some believe this ALTERNATIVE take....u don't right????

You asked what I meant.. I answered and am pretty sure the information is accurate. What I believe is not relevent but it is indeed a variation of christianity which seems to be less tyrannical than the standard christianity.

The angel of light, satan...is a deciever...A LOSER!!!!!!

Which is a belief.. some believe otherwise.

He made the wrong decision....

According to your beliefs.. but not according to gnostic christians beliefs.

He opposed God, right?????????

He revolted against him so yes.

I won't....haven't...will never do!!!!

Am i delusional????

I'll have to read more of your posts to decide that but it's possible.

Have you ever read the Apostle Paul where he said...to the VERY VERY sinful city of Corinth...

II Cor 4:4 - "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

He's a liar...but VERY SMART...WATCH OUT...ok?

OT (Praying)

yeah. well.. okay.

[edit on 1-10-2008 by riley]

OK, thank you so much for reading my links...REALLY!

I appreciate it...

DEIST? Huh? What do you believe...I'm curious?

Who do you call upon when things go wrong?

Who do you speak to when the world kicks your butt?

Just before you go to sleep, are you contended?

Are you @ peace normally?

Is your 'DEITY' close?

Is HE personal?

Do you have daily conversations?

Can you verify His message to you is true???

I think you are ...on your way...do you have an issue with the Lord Jesus?

Please let me know, ok??

OT out...!!!!!!

reply to post by Alexander_Supertramp


What you're basically saying is that religion is a security blanket for the scared, and that ignorance is bliss. Gotcha. I personally find much more comfort in facing the harsh truths of life. Sure, it may not be as pleasant and comforting as religion... but it's the truth of the matter. Once we face up to the fact that these things exist in this world, and will always exist... and that we won't be magically scooped up to salvation by the invisible hand of our loving god - we can work al the more adamantly to correct these things. To make THIS world a better place, because that's all we really have.

I think it shows more love and compassion for someone to sacrifice of themselves for nothing more than the sake of making this world and it's future a better place - even if you may not live to see it's betterment - than it does to try to make the world a better place because you expect some sort of a reward via paradise or divine justice in the next life.

Originally posted by hlesterjerome

LOL WUT? You might wanna do some fact checking there. Columbus proving the world was round is just a fairy tale.

It was an example, not meant to be taken literally. No need to take a small part of my post and use it as a means of 'debunking' or discrediting me. My post had many good points regardless of the fact that I overexaggerated an example. I take it you understood my general point though.

reply to post by riley


r. Hey young man...thanks so much for responding...

That's great!!!

The dialog has begun...

Please DO...read my posts...carefully...there are a lot of them...I LOVE ATS!!!!!!

After you have, pls get back with me, ok??

Do you feel the REVELATION is a farse?...a DECEPTION?....

Is lucifer's fate in the LAST book a hope...from the ignorant?

Wow...I'm glad you are ready for further discussions...pls know OT is praying for you...and am honored that you responded...

I could give you a list of those who have rejected this ole' guy...but who came around...later...after life did to them...what it does...

OT is always here....no doubt!!! Ready to LOVE....Ready to LIVE... and Ready to answer any skeptics question...

You're definitely a THINKING person...great job...let's keep the dialog open, ok?

OT out...

"Religion gives people a feeling of security in exchange for unquestioning obedience. On the positive side it encourages devotion to ideals higher than just material success, like helping others or serving a divine cause. On the negative side religion can be horribly misused to program people like robots and make them do stupid
things like hate and kill those of a different religion.

The main role of religion throughout history has been to keep society well behaved. This was done by imprinting children with moral codes and instilling a fear of authority that shaped them into law-abiding and hard-working citizens. Unlike spirituality, religion aimed to enforce good behavior through programming and in-
timidation rather than true understanding, so the improvement to society came at the cost of ignorance.

Today, those who are spiritually smart can extract and combine the truths from any religion to increase their own wisdom; those who are spiritually weak join religions simply to belong to some- thing, and they end up swallowing and parroting a rigid belief system that they do not even understand. Sadly, nasty individuals also use religion to make themselves appear nicer than they really are, like wolves dressing themselves in sheep’s clothing. Some of them even become famous preachers or ministerswho scam their thousands of naive followers. " The child molesting preachers come to mind. Ahem*Haggard*Ahem
Source


I do believe that science and the creator(god) belong in the same box, where, I don't think we really know yet, but we are getting closer. I think the OP was making a point that religion is not about god anymore(if you think it is, try to re-program yourself into reality) It is about human greed. Unfortunately. Science is always been about the money in some form or other, but part of that argument is mute because religion is tax-exempt and they collect money from followers, and if science wasn't funded somehow, we wouldn't be where we are today.

reply to post by OldThinker


"DEIST? Huh? What do you believe...I'm curious?"

I believe in a creator god or gods which are the first cause to this thing we call reality. This doesn't conflict with currently held theories about the Big Bang, the Multiverse, etc. It only means our universe, the creation, is much bigger than we previously thought - and is governed by natural laws and natural phenomena. I do not believe in personal revelation, miracles, magic, or divine intervention.

"Who do you call upon when things go wrong?"

Nobody. Things go wrong, and it's a part of life. The important thing to remember when things go wrong is to learn from the mistake and apply those lessons to your life in order to try to prevent those mistakes from occurring again - or at least to be better prepared.

"Who do you speak to when the world kicks your butt?"

Friends, family, people on the interweb. People who, perhaps, have gone though similar circumstances and can offer comfort, understanding, and feedback.

"Just before you go to sleep, are you contended?"

As reasonably contented as one should expect. Content in the choices I've made in life, or the position I'm in now - I would say not totally, which is a good thing. It provides the drive to better my life.

"Are you @ peace normally?"

Yes.

"Is your 'DEITY' close?"

Not particularly, it would seem.

"Is HE personal?"

I doubt gender would apply to such a being, but you never know. God has never sought a personal relationship with me, no. We do not go out drinking on Saturdays and play pool, chit-chat, and he does not let me sleep it off at his pad because he's cool like that.

"Do you have daily conversations?"

I try to thank god every day for the blessings I am bestowed with, but it is only one of many thanks to many people.

"Can you verify His message to you is true???"

Lemmie check the answering machine....


... nope, no message yet. Can't verify it's true or not if I haven't received it.


"I think you are ...on your way...do you have an issue with the Lord Jesus?"

Jesus. Hmm.. Seems like a fairly decent fellow. Said a lot of thing which I can agree with. Unfortunately, nobody has even been able to verify if he truly existed or not, and beyond that... nobody has been able to verify that he was actually the son of god. I dunno if paternity tests would apply here. So no, I really don't have a problem with Jesus. No moreso than I have a problem with Diogenes or Gandolf at least.

I must say, Diogenes was quite a bit more... ah... eccentric and charismatic than Jesus though.

Originally posted by nuffsaid420
I think the OP was making a point that religion is not about god anymore(if you think it is, try to re-program yourself into reality) It is about human greed. Unfortunately. Science is always been about the money in some form or other, but part of that argument is mute because religion is tax-exempt and they collect money from followers, and if science wasn't funded somehow, we wouldn't be where we are today.

I agree with most of what you said, very true indeed. However, as to the OP, giving a religion money is not always a bad thing. My dad is a pastor and if it weren't for tithings he wouldn't have a salary. There are many churches where the money given is used for disaster relief, charities, mission work overseas, feeding the poor and hungry, etc.

I may be mistaken, but I thought most churches (excluding evangelical city-sized churches) keep records of their budget and the deacons review and decide what money should go where. It's like it's own little government: the congregation elects deacons, who in turn decide the budget and the pastor, who organizes events alongside the youth minister, associate pastor, etc. etc. Churches need to make money in order to maximize the amount of good they can do.

That said, I'm well aware of the many many churches and religions that just want money and care nothing for others. These are the scum of religion. People think those who are religious should be generous, kind, humble, etc., and yet those who become greedy and 'all-knowing' cause people who aren't religious to have a negative opinion of the religion itself.

[edit on 1-10-2008 by Alexander_Supertramp]

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by riley

 

r. Hey young man...thanks so much for responding...

That's great!!!

The dialog has begun...

Sorry but I can't take you seriously. You claim to know it all yet have immediately assumed I am a young guy.

Please DO...read my posts...carefully...there are a lot of them...I LOVE ATS!!!!!!

After you have, pls get back with me, ok??

Do you feel the REVELATION is a farse?...a DECEPTION?....

Most fables and mythologies are not meant to decieve but that does not mean they are true.

Is lucifer's fate in the LAST book a hope...from the ignorant?

Wow...I'm glad you are ready for further discussions...pls know OT is praying for you...and am honored that you responded...

Thats nice.. but if you want to help humanity I'd rather you go volunteer at a soup kitchen rather than spend that time praying for me.

I could give you a list of those who have rejected this ole' guy...but who came around...later...after life did to them...what it does...

Were they following a guy playing a pipe?

OT is always here....no doubt!!! Ready to LOVE....Ready to LIVE... and Ready to answer any skeptics question...

You're definitely a THINKING person...great job...let's keep the dialog open, ok?

OT out...

Maybe you should open your mind as well. You seem to think you know more than myself yet didn't even know about gnostic christianity so why do you assume you are a worthy teacher?

reply to post by riley


R, To save your time, here’s a few of my posts..for your review…

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.belowtopsecret.com...

www.belowtopsecret.com...

Thanks for looking…

OT (waiting)

reply to post by Lasheic


Lasheic, Great!

Thank you for responding..very balanced...

Glad to know you...or atleast correspond with you, thru ATS...

Hope all goes well

OT

Maybe you should open your mind as well. You seem to think you know more than myself yet didn't even know about gnostic christianity so why do you assume you are a worthy teacher?

Riley...OK, appreciate your time., I am open to learn...really...you can help, I'm sure.....

I studied Gnostics...in 1980...yes I know plenty...just being polite here..seeking more 'info' from you...from YOUR perspective...in 2008

If I offended you, I apologize...I am not great teacher, for sure...

Just one guy (out here) who rec'd great things from the LORD Jesus...

OT out

edit: response

[edit on 1-10-2008 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by riley

 

R, To save your time, here’s a few of my posts..for your review…

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.belowtopsecret.com...

www.belowtopsecret.com...

Thanks for looking…

OT (waiting)

Aside from those threads having nothing to do with this topic.. exactly what point are you trying to argue and why?

(no really)

[edit on 1-10-2008 by riley]

reply to post by riley




Riley???

NOTHING..to do with this topic?


www.abovetopsecret.com...

1) Faith, in my book…at least originally…was a LOGIC thing…


www.abovetopsecret.com...

2) Faith, has met great expectations for my family, for over 3 decades…


www.belowtopsecret.com...

3) Faith’s evidence is ignored by most ‘atheists’…

= = = =

Have you read THE scientist??? A. Einstein, who said… “I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene!”

The relevance of my posts is as follows…

…in OT’s mind is most people have a FAR TOO NARROW A DEFINITION OF CHRISTIANITY…

OT (still searching!)

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by riley

 

Riley???

NOTHING..to do with this topic?

Expecting me to read your other threads is unreasonable and one I've already read (where you try and say lots of bible quotes disproves atheism ). If you have something relevent to say on THIS topic and to MY post say it here. I am not about to search through pages looking for points you have only vaguely alluded to.

[edit on 1-10-2008 by riley]