Just in case.....

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
You are proof of God, are you not enough?

Aha, but some would say we are proof of Zeus.
Some would say we are proof of evolution.
Some would say we are proof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

If there is a God, then perception would play no role in judgement.

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by Interestinggg

 

Nope - logic and probability are against a supreme being. A natural, unthinking, basic process of the universe makes far more logical sense, and is far more likely.

How is logic and probability in favor of there not being a supreme being? You think evolution, random chance created all that there is? It seems like that should take a greater faith than to accept a creator God.

The Earth a Perfect distance from the sun, the moon a perfect distance form the Earth and how they all affect each other, by random chance? I can't even begin to wrap my head around the probability of it.

Interestingly enough, i'd like to see that explained to st. Peter:
Well, I wasn't sure but I figured I'd hedge my bets and try Trans-Christianism. Who knew it, I was right!

Originally posted by Cakewalk
How is logic and probability in favor of there not being a supreme being? You think evolution, random chance created all that there is?

No, the laws of nature formed all that there is. And besides evolution is not random, it's selective, hence the name Natural Selection.

It seems like that should take a greater faith than to accept a creator God.

No. Denying Gods creation- the universe -in favour of a story book takes faith.

The Earth a Perfect distance from the sun, the moon a perfect distance form the Earth and how they all affect each other, by random chance? I can't even begin to wrap my head around the probability of it.

You don't have to because there are hundreds of thousands of planets like Earth in this galaxy alone that share these circumstances. and there are billions of other planets that don't. In our galaxy there are going to be thousands of independent civilisations who formed in those same "butter zones". There are no coincidences, only statistics, for earth is not unique.

the moon a perfect distance form the Earth

There is no "perfect distance from earth". The moon has slowly been moving away from earth since earth acquired the moon in the first place! There is no "perfect distance" because the mere fact that earth has a moon, makes it easier for life.


If God exists, he doesn't just have 6 & 1/2 billion children, he has trillions of billions of billions of children out there, and you are no luckier than any of them.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

Or just be you... and love others as you would love yourself.

Right

The OP is so worried about his afterlife so why not practice every religion just in case? Why pick just one religion?

You know my friend, that actually makes sense when I think about it. The bummer is most religions, not all, but most fill people with so much fear and close off their minds that it stunts them from truly growing as people and to be accepting of others which in turn closes them off to God so that they believe nothing is possible with him.

The only thing I want to remind people of is this. The average person who gets "saved" and feels that it has bettered their own lives in turn bring you that message because they are hoping you will experience the joy they have also. Only they don't bring it to you willingly (who wants to have to go and preach) most of the time, because of fear do they preach it. Fear is what kills it. They bring a mixed cup not realizing it having joy, but pushing fear. Most don't even have joy. They don't see that filling the building up, fills up the pastors pockets out of fear forced ignorance.

Ask a christian what the "Good News" is. Jesus was preaching it before he died, so the message can't be that "he died for your sins" as he was preaching it when he lived. His message was "You are the Kingdom", not "hey everybody I gotta go die now, so make sure to tell everyone it is their fault". I'm sorry but that is not "Good News". Matter of fact, that is horrible news.

Hell is translated from Gehenna. Gehenna means Genesis. This is why John said, "and the smoke of them rises up forever". Wisdom comes with age and is spirit. The spirit of those before you inhabits you and is your conscience. Jesus was speaking of being "Cast outside" by ending the life which he did (having no offsprings officially) and is why he asked "Why have you forsaken me?" Why don't Christians, who believe Jesus the man is god, see any conflict in this being so Black and White in approach? He is either forsaken or lying either saved or unsaved. OR they are not seeing it correctly being programed to deceive unwittingly which is what tants the message in the first place.

To the Christian religion God doesn't change, yet how many different churches are there? How many different sects and titles are there that are telling each other they are wrong? Don't they see that their discord alone, is proof that they are following a false precept having no union? Which of them has gone to hell, so that they may tell you "be saved" from hell? Truth is not seen because they are blinded with the message of fear, the message of death, the message of hopelessness.

The true "Good News" is something like this...He was 8lbs 8ozs, born today. He has his mothers eyes and my nose and is the most beautiful thing I could have ever received, and I would die for him. "The Lord said unto my lord, sit at my right hand until I make all of your enemies your footstool". The truth is evident...the lies are unverifiable and are true evil, the backwards of live.

Peace

Originally posted by TruthParadox

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand
You are proof of God, are you not enough?

Aha, but some would say we are proof of Zeus.
Some would say we are proof of evolution.
Some would say we are proof of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

If there is a God, then perception would play no role in judgement.

And all of them would be just as right as you are, as those are all names for the same thing, blind faith.

Why do Masons get along with each other, have code amongst one another and work on themselves for better as to even agree on a designation, not a name of the creator?

"If Chewbaca is from Endor you must equit" makes as much sense as your statement, and not only that, you aren't sure saying "If". Who's frightened of the afterlife here? "If" you have no fear, then none of these things would be an issue with you, yet being unsure you mock as one who is afraid of the unknown. Truth is no paradox, the paradox is knowing the truth and denying it and by such a kingdom can not stand. Truth doesn't have two masters.

By the way, God never said "Let them have free will"...He ORDERED them to not partake of Good and Evil (which is Death), but to eat life. Start in the truth and be set free.

Peace

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


How is any of that helping? It's all very nice truth will set you free and claim those who mock faith are fearful, but really, none of this is anything but old rhetoric.

The problem still sits there like the fat duck it is. If God is real, which god is he? - or more accurately, who's claims about God are right?

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

How is any of that helping? It's all very nice truth will set you free and claim those who mock faith are fearful, but really, none of this is anything but old rhetoric.

The problem still sits there like the fat duck it is. If God is real, which god is he? - or more accurately, who's claims about God are right? [/quote

I'm an atheist, so I don't believe there is a god . Having said that I can accept that we are here and that we have origins,my observation is that there is no God such as every religion describes,a thunderbolt thrower or a charioteer or a mounted sword wielder or a Shepherd or a crucified for man kind or a Prometheus or any of that. I think we are here in this world with eyes and ears and voices so the Universe can observe itself, and that that is our purpose and that ,that is the ,Why of Why are we here. The Universe doesn't see us It sees itself through us

what if satan would full fill all of your desires?

reply to post by Missing Mosquito Man


What if satan doesn't exist? Realise that even if God exists, satan still doesn't necessarily exist, and likely doesn't. Many would say (and I don't just mean Christians) that a kingdom divided against itself will not stand. Well, everything natural and supernatural is divided against itself in regards to Good and Evil.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

How is any of that helping? It's all very nice truth will set you free and claim those who mock faith are fearful, but really, none of this is anything but old rhetoric.

The problem still sits there like the fat duck it is. If God is real, which god is he? - or more accurately, who's claims about God are right?

That's a good question Good Wolf. I have a Christian background and bible thumped as hard as any of them. In age, I see I damaged more people then I ever could of hoped at saving (like I could anyway). Due to personal crisis, I was forced to re-evaluate what I knew to be "absolute" (which I didn't know, just thought I did).

I believe most people want to do what is right (God or not). I believe everyone makes misjudgments. Most of the world knows at least some of the 10 commandments. Would you agree that most of them are good for life regardless of if they came from God or not? Don't steal...Good. Don't cheat...Good. Don't lie....Good. They are good, I believe, because they tell us not to injure one another and in doing so, we build each other up by building are selves into better people upon the most basic principles of life.

Gods name in the Hebrew is not so much a name, but a title which is "Self-existent" or "Cause to become". Being that you have no idea how you came into existence, that is, you know the biological process but not the will of life itself, would you classify yourself as "Self-existent"? Sure your mother and father had to get together, but it is not as if they custom made you knowing every detail of your person, but that in their love for one another you were formed either them trying or not. Jesus said, I come in my fathers name again a title, "Self existent is salvation". The name takes on a whole new meaning when seen as it should be. He said his father is true, so I ask you. Is "self existent" true or not?

Odin, Ra, Budda, Zeus, Poisiden, Xenu and so on are names which I haven't looked up what they actually mean, but I can guess all have deeper meanings then we know, seeing as how they are all oriented in different times and languages. We can't count on English to give us the meanings as the English representations are just designations not meanings. I would say these are more like Nick-names for English which designate a personality attached to them by lore, but do not carry the meanings of the actual names themselves. Through study, I can tell you that most of the names I listed are just other representations of the same people in different cultures. Odin=Dan, Ra=Yah, Budda=Judah, Zeus=Jesus. What should be easy to see is not, because of pride in culture. People kill each other over the same names in ignorance.

I don't believe God was ever concerned with what people called him as we are a variety, and so made in his image, but more so concerned with the character through which we operate. The character that operates in truth with one another is pleasing to him as he is in all. I believe this is why Jesus said all of the law hangs on the first two. "Love the Lord your God with all of yourself, and Love your neighbors in the same way"...paraphrasing. People never question, "Well, where is the law on how to love ourselves?" If the second is "Love your neighbor as yourself", then there can only be one instruction on how to love yourself firstly left out of the two. This is why they called Jesus a "Blasphemer". "Are you making yourself equal to God?" they asked him. "I and the father are one", hence "Self existent is salvation".

Make any sense?

Peace

sure it makes sense but it doesn't really help, again. The ten commandments? Most of them are moral imperatives, so they aren't a big deal, because people don't have to know them to understand them. Anthropologists think the "Jesus's Golden Rule", treat others as you would be treated, was the first game law ever used by man. Any laws that are mutually beneficial are this kind of mutual imperative.

I also don't think self evident things matter, let alone, self evident names. My parents would not have had to have know every single detail of my being for me to be made. Miscarriages, genetic diseases, and other birth defects make more sense in light of blind creation.

One thing that annoys me is people who think that some how the bible is word for word accurate, perfect and inerrant. You brought up the names, one piece of evidence amongst allot that show plagiarising of other religions. When I was a christian, reading the bible lead me out of the church, away from Jesus idolatry, and into a "personal" relationship with who I thought God was. Before long I wasn't really a christian anymore, a deist maybe, but not christian.

But right from the word go, when I was little I knew things in genesis and probably other books were untrue stories (much to the dismay of my sunday school teacher).

I think a reasonable belief in God cannot be devout any-religion, certainly no mainstream form of a religion.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
sure it makes sense but it doesn't really help, again. The ten commandments? Most of them are moral imperatives, so they aren't a big deal, because people don't have to know them to understand them. Anthropologists think the "Jesus's Golden Rule", treat others as you would be treated, was the first game law ever used by man. Any laws that are mutually beneficial are this kind of mutual imperative.

I also don't think self evident things matter, let alone, self evident names. My parents would not have had to have know every single detail of my being for me to be made. Miscarriages, genetic diseases, and other birth defects make more sense in light of blind creation.

One thing that annoys me is people who think that some how the bible is word for word accurate, perfect and inerrant. You brought up the names, one piece of evidence amongst allot that show plagiarising of other religions. When I was a christian, reading the bible lead me out of the church, away from Jesus idolatry, and into a "personal" relationship with who I thought God was. Before long I wasn't really a christian anymore, a deist maybe, but not christian.

But right from the word go, when I was little I knew things in genesis and probably other books were untrue stories (much to the dismay of my sunday school teacher).

I think a reasonable belief in God cannot be devout any-religion, certainly no mainstream form of a religion.

Hello Good wolf.

You had asked,

The problem still sits there like the fat duck it is. If God is real, which god is he? - or more accurately, who's claims about God are right?

I am the same in some respects. I was led away by my wants, but lead into a personal relationship after my wants were received.

I am witness of the holy spirit, what ever you would like to call it, in what ever language and in what ever religion. I know, what should be plain to see to any of us, the bible is a book. It is inspired, but no more then a beautiful song, or amazing art as ALL of these things are done by GOD'S hands.

Truth is Truth no matter who is saying it and truth is always verifiable. Truth is Judgement. A portion of Good is needed and a portion of evil for there to be Justice.

Definitions of Truth on the Web:
* a fact that has been verified; "at last he knew the truth"; "the truth is that he didn't want to do it"
* conformity to reality or actuality; "they debated the truth of the proposition"; "the situation brought home to us the blunt truth of the military threat"; "he was famous for the truth of his portraits"; "he turned to religion in his search for eternal verities"

If people can't literally show you God, then they are following idols. This is why I spoke of the first two commandments in my previous. Love the one creating you, love others creating as yourself. God is living breathing and speaking, even now, as when anyone is.

Peace

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


I must admit I having a hard time actually working out what points you are trying to make.

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand

Definitions of Truth on the Web:
* a fact that has been verified

How is the christian god a verified fact? I used to be a christian for more than 10 years and didn't see anything verified.



[edit on 10/22/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf

Joh 10:33 The Jews answered Him, saying, We do not stone You concerning a good work, but concerning blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself God.

Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, Has it not been written in your Law, "I said, you are gods"? Psa. 82:6

Truth is verifiable and seen in the light. Here is the psalm Jesus was quoting.

Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph God stands in the assembly of the mighty; He judges in the midst of the gods.
Psa 82:2 Until when will you judge unjustly, and lift up the faces of the wicked? Selah.
Psa 82:3 Judge the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy; save out of the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 They neither know nor will understand; they walk in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
Psa 82:6 I have said, You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High.
Psa 82:7 But you shall die as men, and fall like one of the rulers.
Psa 82:8 Rise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit in all the nations.

When we start being the will of God then, we will "Rule as God" Yisrael.

Peace

[edit on 22-10-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

You are still missing the point. I'm talking about actual evidence for God.

God is not a Fact. And scripture isn't evidence.

reply to post by Good Wolf



I'm sorry. Please explain to me what exactly you mean? I'm not trying to be funny, I seriously want to understand you.

I believe you want proof that God exists.

Since not one person comes into the world with a book, nor does one exit the world with a book then why would people need a book to show them who God is? I must agree with you that scripture proves nothing. The american Indians called God the great spirit.

The Great Spirit is personal, close to the people, and immanent in the fabric of the material world. He ruled the Happy hunting ground, a place similar to Heaven. Chief Dan Evehema, a spiritual leader of the Hopi Nation, described the Great Spirit as follows:

"To the Hopi, the Great Spirit is all powerful. He taught us how to live, to worship, where to go and what food to carry, gave us seeds to plant and harvest. He gave us a set of sacred stone tablets into which he breathed all teachings in order to safeguard his land and life. In these stone tablets were inscribed instructions, prophecies and warnings."

If to quote from a book, Jesus plainly says, "You search the scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life"...."Gods words are spirit not flesh, the flesh profits nothing."

God is the beginning and the end, and all in between. There is no life OUTSIDE of him. His title is "self existent", so I don't know how much clearer I can say it. Life should be evidence enough, but people don't want life, they want death not knowing what it is.

I believe it is harder for people to accept the fact of what is, then to look for images and daydreams. In truth I did this most of my life. The only thing that changed that and is changing that, is the spirit of God that witnesses to me.

People have it wrong. They think they are supposed to witness, but that is untrue. You receive the witness, meaning you are witnessed to by the spirit of your doings. This is why jesus said,

"Joh 5:31 If I bear witness concerning myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 It is another who bears witness concerning me, and I know that the witness which he bears concerning me is true."

"The healthy have no need of a doctor, only the sick". It is the sick that receive witness, not the healthy. If you have not received witness you are not ill.

We are all one body of God that lives forever. Just as you have fleeting thoughts, but hold on to others, so is it with God, who forgets sin, until it "rises up to heaven".

I speak with these names, but again the names are names in English, but with the original texts, which hardly anyone reads being "sealed", they are not names only but meanings. Everything is a parable. You as a Christian most likely got the first part of the parable being told it was spiritual, but it is not so. Not that you are less, but that you have already been counted.

Someone who is doing the Job correctly is not usually thanked because their work provides no trouble, but allows operations to run smoothly because the worker was seamless. It is only when the work, that the worker is doing "stops up" progress for the whole, that the worker is then singled out and reprimanded, so it is with Christ who is "manifest" in the flesh as he is with all. Christ is Cain. To Cain it is said

Denying a name will not hurt you, denying life will. Again, God's Title is "Self existent". His Sons title which is in his fathers title and is "Self existent is Salvation". Self existent is salvation is from Generation to Generation forever. Therefore, God is the God OF THE LIVING.

God is perfect, because all is judged by him. Ghosts do not judge this world, only the living.

Do unto others as you would have done unto you, is better stated..."To the least of these, so also have you done it unto me."

You don't need scripture to tell you to treat someone as you would want to be treated.


Peace

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


Your missing the point by a mile. I'm not here to talk philosophy. Im looking for evidence and convincing evidence at that. His name is "I am real and my name proves it" isn't good enough. I'm looking for the proverbial flaming "Sorry for the inconvenience" on the side of the hill.

I'm not even convinced he exists anymore so I'm not interested in word games.

reply to post by Good Wolf


I'm sorry Good Wolf, I think I see why you are missing my point. When I say self existent, I believe you are thinking of someone other then yourself.

Strait up....YOU ARE GOD.

You are responsible.

You are the only begotten image.

You have the power in you to give life or take it away.

This is what people are unwilling to see. We are responsible.

You are first in place and last in descent.

Religion, RE-LEGION is set up to play on mans emotions and make him an unrational beast searching for what is already in front of him, swept in emotion, not taking responsibilty rather pinning it to a single savior god, budda whatever.

You are called by your name, no one elses. God being one serves himself. We all being a part of God here and now serve each other as to serve ourself. No book written with mens hands will tell you this. It is self evident of God.

People don't believe this. This is why Jesus said, "if you had faith the size of a mustard seed". This isn't philosophy, it is if you do or don't. Do you have faith?

Peace





[edit on 25-10-2008 by letthereaderunderstand]

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


I reiterate:


I'm not here to talk philosophy. Im looking for evidence and convincing evidence at that. His name is "I am real and my name proves it" isn't good enough. I'm looking for the proverbial flaming "Sorry for the inconvenience" on the side of the hill.