What evidence is there?

What real evidence is there to show that the Illuminate exists?
The likes of David Icke! Are they just delusional? Or is it just mass paranoia?

There is the fact that Manly P. Hall, Albert Pike, C.W. Leadbeater and Foster Bailey, all 33d degree Freemasons, all said that Freemasonry is run by the Illuminati in their various dismal depressing books.

I imagine that the capture and exposure of Weishaupt is a matter of public record and as such recorded history.
A verifiable fact and evidence of the Bavarian Illuminati's existance in the 1700's at the very least.

Originally posted by Researcher
There is the fact that Manly P. Hall, Albert Pike, C.W. Leadbeater and Foster Bailey, all 33d degree Freemasons, all said that Freemasonry is run by the Illuminati in their various dismal depressing books.

None of these authors ever said anything about Freemasonry being "ran by the Illuminati". Not one.
If you can give your sources and prove me wrong, I will concede. However, I have studied the works of these gentlemen for many years, and all their books are on my bookshelf.

Fiat Lvx.

Delighted...

J.D. Buck; The Genius of Freemasonry; Page 36:
If the sincere and thoughtful Mason would "take notice" of the symbolism and the use made
everywhere in the Lodge of the word "Light", and remember that the real Initiates are called also "the Illuminati", (Sons of Light),those who are illumined, and who in turn illuminate, he might gather clues of, not only the whole symbolism of Masonry, but also of the real Lost Word".

Manly P. Hall; Lectures On Ancient Philosophy; Page 409:
The foregoing may seem to be a useless recital of inanities, but its purpose is to impress upon the reader's mind the philosophical and political situation in Europe at the time of the inception of the Masonic order. A philosophic clan, as it were, which had moved across the face of Europe under such names as the "Illuminati" and the "Rosicrucians," had undermined in a subtle manner the entire structure of regal and sacerdotal supremacy.

Foster Bailey; The Spirit of Masonry; Pages 20-21:
Little as it may be realised by the unthinking Mason who is interested only in the outer aspects of the Craft work, the whole fabric of Masonry may be regarded as an externalisation of that inner spiritual group whose members, down the ages, have been the Custodians of the Plan, and as Those to Whom has been committed the working out of the will of God for the race of men.
These Master Masons, to whom T.G.A.O.T.U. has given the design and Who are familiar with the tracing board of the G.M. on high, are called by many names and are known at different times by various appellations. They can be referred to as Christ and His Church-that band of disciples who follow in the footsteps and work under the inspiration of the great Carpenter of Nazareth.
They can be known by others as the Masters of the Wisdom for They are skilled in the divine ways and have mastered the arts and sciences which Their fellowmen have yet to master. They are the Dispensers of Light and to Them has been given, by virtue of Their achievement, the privilege and the authority to pronounce the great Masonic formula: 'Let there be light' and to evoke the response: 'And there was LIGHT'.
They are therefore sometimes known as the Illuminati and can direct the searchlight of truth wherever its beams are needed to guide the pilgrim on his way.

J.D. Buck; Symbolism of Freemasonry; INTRODUCTION xxviii:
In brief, then, the real secrets of Freemasonrv lie in its Symbols, and the meaning of the symbols reveals a profound philosophy; and a universal science, that have never been transcended by man.
The author of this book is not presumptive enough to claim that he has exhausted, or altogether apprehended, in its entirety, this old philosophy. He has, however, found such interest in itsstudy, and it has opened to him such a mine of wealth, with such treasures revealed at every step, that he desires to share these precious jewels with his fellow craftsmen, that they may also go further, and from the secret vaults bring forth for inspection other and greater discoveries. These jewels have not been concealed by accident, but by design, in order that they might, in some future age, be restored. Even the stone that was rejected, and became lost in the rubbish, not only bears an emblem, and contains a mark, but is itself, from first to last, with its surroundings, method of restoration, and final use, a symbol. It is the center of a five-pointed star, which is the kabalistic sign of man. In one direction, it symbolizes the five senses, lost in the rubbish of passion and selfish gratification. When this rejected or lost stone is recovered, and sent to the King of the temple (man's Higher-Self), and is recognized and restored, the arch is complete, and the gate-way of the senses gives entrance to the "Palace of the King." The result is light or illumination. Such are the Illuminati.

Originally posted by Researcher
Delighted...

J.D. Buck; The Genius of Freemasonry; Page 36:
If the sincere and thoughtful Mason would "take notice" of the symbolism and the use made
everywhere in the Lodge of the word "Light", and remember that the real Initiates are called also "the Illuminati", (Sons of Light),those who are illumined, and who in turn illuminate, he might gather clues of, not only the whole symbolism of Masonry, but also of the real Lost Word".

Here, Dr. Buck says that the true Initiate is an Illuminos, a Son of Light. He does not make the claim that Freemasonry is being ran by an outside group called "Illuminati."
I've made this point before here, but will recap: "illuminati" is a general term used to denote enlightenment, usually of the spiritual type. In this context, in which Dr. Buck was using it, every person who has gained spiritual and intellectual insight is worthy of the title Illuminos. Dr. Buck makes no claim that Freemasony is controlled by any clandestine organization.

Manly P. Hall; Lectures On Ancient Philosophy; Page 409:
The foregoing may seem to be a useless recital of inanities, but its purpose is to impress upon the reader's mind the philosophical and political situation in Europe at the time of the inception of the Masonic order. A philosophic clan, as it were, which had moved across the face of Europe under such names as the "Illuminati" and the "Rosicrucians," had undermined in a subtle manner the entire structure of regal and sacerdotal supremacy.

Brother Hall's observations here are, for the most part, correct. I've made similar statements myself on the Bavarian Illuminati thread on the "New World Forum" here.
Brother Hall does not claim that the Illuminati (Bavarian or otherwise) control Freemasonry.

Foster Bailey; The Spirit of Masonry; Pages 20-21:
Little as it may be realised by the unthinking Mason who is interested only in the outer aspects of the Craft work, the whole fabric of Masonry may be regarded as an externalisation of that inner spiritual group whose members, down the ages, have been the Custodians of the Plan, and as Those to Whom has been committed the working out of the will of God for the race of men.
These Master Masons, to whom T.G.A.O.T.U. has given the design and Who are familiar with the tracing board of the G.M. on high, are called by many names and are known at different times by various appellations. They can be referred to as Christ and His Church-that band of disciples who follow in the footsteps and work under the inspiration of the great Carpenter of Nazareth.
They can be known by others as the Masters of the Wisdom for They are skilled in the divine ways and have mastered the arts and sciences which Their fellowmen have yet to master. They are the Dispensers of Light and to Them has been given, by virtue of Their achievement, the privilege and the authority to pronounce the great Masonic formula: 'Let there be light' and to evoke the response: 'And there was LIGHT'.
They are therefore sometimes known as the Illuminati and can direct the searchlight of truth wherever its beams are needed to guide the pilgrim on his way.

Brother Bailey's remarks were similar to (and inspired by) Buck's. They use the word Illuminati to refer to spiritually enlightened individuals, not a cabal or secret society, as is apparent in the text.
Again, Bro. Bailey does not claim that Masonry is controlled by a clandestine group.

J.D. Buck; Symbolism of Freemasonry; INTRODUCTION xxviii:
In brief, then, the real secrets of Freemasonrv lie in its Symbols, and the meaning of the symbols reveals a profound philosophy; and a universal science, that have never been transcended by man.
The author of this book is not presumptive enough to claim that he has exhausted, or altogether apprehended, in its entirety, this old philosophy. He has, however, found such interest in itsstudy, and it has opened to him such a mine of wealth, with such treasures revealed at every step, that he desires to share these precious jewels with his fellow craftsmen, that they may also go further, and from the secret vaults bring forth for inspection other and greater discoveries. These jewels have not been concealed by accident, but by design, in order that they might, in some future age, be restored. Even the stone that was rejected, and became lost in the rubbish, not only bears an emblem, and contains a mark, but is itself, from first to last, with its surroundings, method of restoration, and final use, a symbol. It is the center of a five-pointed star, which is the kabalistic sign of man. In one direction, it symbolizes the five senses, lost in the rubbish of passion and selfish gratification. When this rejected or lost stone is recovered, and sent to the King of the temple (man's Higher-Self), and is recognized and restored, the arch is complete, and the gate-way of the senses gives entrance to the "Palace of the King." The result is light or illumination. Such are the Illuminati.

Exactly my point. Dr. Buck here clearly indicates his definition of the Illuminati, and I wholeheartedly agree.
The True Illuminos is the man or woman who seeks the light of wisdom....not a member of a secret cabal.

While I myself am very sympathetic to the Bavarian Illuminati, and have great respect for Weishaupt and his collaborators, this organization was not a Masonic Rite. There were and are literally hundreds of organiations calling themselves "Illuminati" which had little or nothing to do with orthodox Freemasonry. As previously mentioned, all of the Enligtenment intellectuals of the 18th century considered themselves to be "illuminati", i.e., illuminated by truth. And as Dr. Buck aptly pointed out, such is the heritage of every man and woman who seeks after wisdom.

Fiat Lvx.

[Sarcasm] Of course we could ask the REAL expert himself Maximus Illuminati aka Solomon Tulbure, he could tell us the truth [/Sarcasm]

if Illuminati means "illuminated one" isn't that a direct reference to who we are talking about?

Isn't this kind of like the "Imminent threat" vs "immediate threat" argument? are there any differences b/t Imminent and Immediate?

are there differences in the illuminati words?
If we are talking about a secret society that is Illuminated with knowledge, isn't this the same Illuminati we are speaking of?

Ok, so what of the claims of David Icke that there are shape shifting lizards out there, with the Royal Family being at the top of his list of candidates.

Originally posted by slugfast
if Illuminati means "illuminated one" isn't that a direct reference to who we are talking about?
Isn't this kind of like the "Imminent threat" vs "immediate threat" argument? are there any differences b/t Imminent and Immediate?
are there differences in the illuminati words?
If we are talking about a secret society that is Illuminated with knowledge, isn't this the same Illuminati we are speaking of?

I would say �no�. One of the problems comes from confusion in semantics. As used on this forum, the word �Illuminati� may mean one of three things:

1. A collection of people who are somehow more spiritually or intellectually enlightened than the majority. This is the word�s actual definition, and is why practically all philosophers, poets, and early scientists considered themselves �illuminati�. This class is not actually a �group�...they may not necessarily intermingle or know one another. Instead, they have merely gained extra insight into the human condition, which results in �illumination�.

2. Another definition of the term used here is in reference to a semi-secret society founded in Bavaria in 1776 by Adam Weishaupt and Adolph Von Knigge. This society was originally called the Order of Perfectibilis, but Weishaupt changed the name to Illuminati in order to reflect the Order�s teachings, which were inspired by the philosophy of the so-called Age of Enlightenment. One need not have been a member of Weishaupt�s organization in order to meet the first definition of an Illuminos; nor were all members of Weishaupt�s Illuminati particularly illuminated.

3. Another definition as often used here is some sort of secret cabal that is hellbent on world domination. Evidence suggests that this �Illuminati� is fictional, existing only in the minds of conspiracy theorists. The �Illuminati conspiracy threat� was actually invented by Bavarian Jesuits in an attempt to discredit Weishaupt�s group, which was becoming very popular among the liberals and intellectuals of Bavaria at that period.

For example, I could say that Galileo and Copernicus were Illuminati. By this, I would mean that they were more enlightened than most of their fellows, not that they were members of Weishaupt�s fraternity, or that they cared anything about world domination. Actually, anyone who wanted to control the world and boss people around would be the exact opposite of the Illuminati, since dictators are, by their very nature, NOT very enlightened.

All three of these definitions have been applied to Freemasonry. When I received the 32� of Scottish Rite Masonry, I received a framed certificate to hang on my wall, written in Latin, declaring me an �Illuminos,� having received the degree at the hands of my �Fratres Illuminati�. All this means is that, ideally, my Masonic degrees should have enlightened me to some extent, with the term �Fratres Illuminati� simply meaning �Enlightened Brothers�.
As for the second definition: both Weishaupt and Von Knigge were Masons, and they recruited from the local Masonic Lodges who, at least theoretically, were sympathetic to their cause. Mozart and Goethe are examples of a few famous Masons who joined the Illuminati. This organization was suppressed by the Jesuit Electorate who controlled the Bavarian government, was disbanded, and its members either arrested or sent into exile.
This is where the third definition derives. The Church, who held dictatorial power in much of Europe, saw what happened in the American Revolution, and began to show its fear. They did not want freedom of speech and religion legalized, nor a democratic government, because they knew it would spell the end of their power. Even as late as the 1860�s, Pope Leo XIII, in is anti-Masonic Bull �Humanum Genus�, rants on and on about the �devilry� and �wickedness� of a free society, which the �evil sect of Freemasons� have fought for unrelentingly.
The Illuminati, like Masonry, challenged people to think for themselves. When a man thinks for himself in such a situation, he will soon find he has been deceived by his oppressors, in this case the Roman Church and its kings who owed it allegiance.
But such a tyrant also understands that the masses are uneducated and superstitious, and used this to their advantage in their slander campaign against the Illuminati and Masonry. They found they could use a scapegoat (Masons and Illuminati) to create fear, and through this fear they could control the people.
It is not surprising that this nefarious tactic worked in 18th century Bavaria, where most people could not even read and write, half of them still firmly believing the sun revolved around the earth. What IS surprising is that such beliefs continue even today.

Fiat Lvx.