Physical Evidence of Prehistoric Cultures – The Throw Down Thread

A previous thread “Science Proving Global Flood Myth True..." , which bigfatfurrytexan and I started a while back was about to derail and turn into a debate with our ever vigilant skeptics on evidence of prehistoric civilizations. And while much of this may have been hotly debated around here before, I figured it was a good time to call for “group activity” and get it down in one place.

I’ll start with one I’m sure our most dedicated skeptics are all familiar with, although I did an ATS search and did not find any threads on the topic:

The Osirion (which...yes, sigh... will eventually lead us to the Giza Plateau and I can hear the sharpening knives already)

Even the mainstream Egyptologist and archaeologists themselves cannot agree on the dates this anomalous Megalithic structure. One group wants to date it to Seti I and the New Kingdom circa 1280 b.c., and a seemingly much smaller group wants to date it to the time of the construction of the Giza Plateau and Chefren/Khafre’s pyramid of 2500 b.c. LINK

Why the turmoil in the orthodox ranks? Because The Osirion was found buried in 50 feet of Nile silt below Seti I’s typical New Kingdom era temple – no megalithic stones, lots of hieroglyphs, carvings and paintings -- and the knee jerk response was to say that he built it.

That’s right, they say that Seti I dug a hole and built The Osirion 50 feet lower than his own temple using megalithic stones he did not use in his ‘upper’ temple in a style of construction that had not been used by orthodox count for over a thousand years and that is almost entirely devoid of any markings (one interesting exception being the Flower of Life which is discretely carved into some of the 100 plus ton stones that make up the Osirion). The evidence they base this assumption on? A cartouche of Seti I that was inscribed onto a passageway from his temple that connects to the Osirion,

Here is a site that has some good, consice basic info.

The Osirion is also constructed of the same red granite that is found in Chefren’s/Khafre’s pyramid and throughout the Giza Plateau. It is as anomalous as the other buildings of the Giza plateau in that no one can truly agree on how it was engineered and constructed. Nor, can they explain how Egyptian civilization was seemingly at its height during the Old Kingdom -- based on the skill used in the construction in the building of the Giza Plateau-- and from that point forward how they seemingly ‘lost’ their ability to quarry and build on a megalithic scale.

I am positing that most of the buildings in Giza plateau (certainly Great Pyramid, Chefren/Khafre/ Sphinx) are as incorrectly dated as The Osirion seems to be. If the majority of the orthodox community can stand-by the assertion that Seti I built the Osirion in approx. 1290 b.c. , I don’t see any need automatically to bow down to their debatable dating of any of the true megalithic structures on the Giza plateau.

So, first on my list of Physical Evidence of Prehistoric Civilization 'The Osirion' (and Giza as stated above). Next up, Tiahuanaco!

I need to get this on "MyATS". Pardon the one liner...i will be back as the story unfolds to chime in.

I agree with the way you see it. Worldwide we can see numerous megaliths equally misunderstood and mysterious. Some people only learn things they already know. Logic does not factor into many of the currently accepted theories regarding ancient people.

reply to post by TheWayISeeIt


The way you see it, is the way I see it.

Like bff-texan I had to post to get this one my list.

Ok the osirian is very interesting, but,

if its a temple to osiris, and osiris is the god of the underworld, might not his temple complex be built underground.
I dont have enough real info available about that one form me to form an opinion on, yet.
HMMMM

But the scientific evidence clearly dates the constructions on the giza platuea.
And its the little things that count like the tablets clearly describing paying workers for thier work on the great pyramid.
And the ample samples of organic matter that have been uncovered in all sorts of contexts. Like wheat and millet found under stones and shards of cloth the ample cemetaries of the dead workers that abound on the giza.
All these thing have been concretely dated and you put that together with the what the egyptians themselves wrote down, its pretty clear about the timeline.

Sort of ,,
I'll get into my thoughts about that later.


Tiahunaco is not nearly old enough, it wasnt settled till 500bc and didnt reach its zenith until much later.



But then there is Baalbek in lebanon
www.sacredsites.com...

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www.sacredsites.com...



Where there are some stones that weight as much as 750 tons and 2 more at 1150 and 1200 tons.
One of these huge stones was moved over a mile across a hill to the site where it is.
When the hittites conquered the area they found ruins of a temple at the site and built on top of it, 1500bc ish.


there are a couple of other sites in lebanon with such megalithic stones.

And I remember reading in an archealogical newsletter last year that an archeaologist working on Temple Mount had found megalithic blocks at the lowest level. I think they were doing a bore scope survey and found the blocks, its kind of a shame because we will never know for sure, thats one place you cant go digging up.



There are a couple of sites in turkey where similar styles of megalithic construction have been found.

Then there are a few enigmatic sites in south east asia, I'll try to dig those names up, other than yanouguni.

Ok you throw down so im throwin down

In your last thread I think we agreed that a comet impact set in motion a chain of events that lead to a great deluge and flood.

At one time I strongly believed in a long lost pre civilzation, but my view has changed some what.

I think that at some point the med. will reveal some startling evidence.

Lets go back to the comet impact period, now at this point we know man is, for the most part, still a hunter/gatherer, in the wilds.
And we know that as far back as 12000 years ago iberians were building boats and hunting the coastal margins, and I think all the way to north america and were the foundation of the people called the clovis.
Asiatic peoples were also skilled sailors by then because they had made it as far as extreme south america.
Any hoo, we know that sea levels were much lower than today, but I dont think that they were as low as some people think in the near past, 600 feet no way.
Now if you look at the sea floor profile of the straits of gibralter there is a very deep cleft in the bottom.
The water on either side of the cleft isnt so very deep a couple hundred feet, and this feature is like a huge gouge in the bottom 1200 feet deep or so?.

And like I said the water on either side isnt very deep 200 feet ish, well within what i believe to be an acceptable change in sea level since the end of the last ice age.

Ok now lets assume the water is 400 feet lower than today, and ,maybe even 600, and remove the giant cleft, you now have an ithsmus separating europe and africa.
And a potentially dry med. basin, a basin much like californias death valley, they were /are formed in the same manner, exept the med would have very lush and mild climate and the end of the last ice age.
The rivers of africa and the runn off from europe would nourish a paradise within it basin. The waters would flow into a very salty lake and evaporate at the bottom where it would be like death valley, hot and with great salt flats.
I probably painted a somewhat idillic picture but this environment would have given maknind a plentiful area to start it way down civilization's road.
There is some intruging evidence that this was a realtiy at some point.
A palentologist digging on one of the small mediterrain islands off of italy, found the remains of a unique species of elephant.
Two things at no time within the dated period of the elephant was there any way for an elephant to have gotten to this island from africa, unless it walked there.
There were also fossilized primates, much older than the elephants by several million years, primates that were already upright, 6 mya?.
The point being that this "island" which is surrounded by water thousands of feet deep had african animals on it for a long period of time.
At one point the med was dry
So, the great north american comet impact happens and establishes the foundation for a whole host flood myths, the native american ones being OH SO fascinating.
The ensuing initial flood blasts down into the gulf of mexico, the atlantic and pacific oceans. This catastrophy did wipe out many societies, maybe a couple of reasonably advanced ones, along the coasts of the world.

But more importantly the water washed up and over the ithsmus of gibralter and flowed down the back side into the med basin, through one of the river or stream channels.
At first it was but a stream, with all of the other chaos in the weather immediatlely following the impact, I doubt anyone noticed .
When they did notice they praised the gods for delivering a new river, OF SALT WATER

HMM the gods have need for salt in great salt desert into which this new river flowed.
So they made some sacrifices, built a temple or two here and there and went on about their business, as the newest ocean slowly filled below them.




to be continued









[edit on 26-9-2008 by punkinworks]

[edit on 26-9-2008 by punkinworks]

BFFT! Sky! (and "Greetings!" BlackGuard) So glad you're here and appreciate the support, although it does not seem like I'm going to need it as it appears Our Skeptics have decided to sit this one out.... PAAAAARTY TIIIIIME!!!!

First Hanslune goes on vacation, allowing a few other voices to get a word in edge wise around here, and now this... Mark it down in your calendars, this is an auspicious moment.

And hey, woo-hoo, punkinworks! As I was writing this I went back to thread to load some pics on the OP and saw your first entry, committed, dig it. I am going to go read it now and will just post a few Osirion pics here for good measure.

Anon!

One of the earliest photos of The Osirion after its discovery in the 20's.



For scale: a pic highlighting the 'protruberances' on the Osirion that are also found on the....



GIZA PLATEAU!

reply to post by punkinworks


Hey punkin -

Read your first post and Baalbek is coming, Tihuanaco we can debate when I get it together to post it -- unless someone beats me to it -- and as for the 'accepted', narrow, selective perspective C14 dating of Giza... I'm not down with that.

If required I guess we can go through the requisite routine -- I'm siding with the carbon samples, and payment records, etc. are evidence of Old Kingdom organized labor unearthing pre-exisiting structures and the co-opting of them. The Osirion being not only an ideal example of exactly that, but the ideal example of Orthodoxy doing what they always accuse the Fringe of, namely the selective, prejudiced choosing of facts to prove their case.

As for the last 2/3 of your post, Dude, please, please, move it to the Flood Myth thread! There is great stuff there, and I'd like to explore it more, but this is not the place for it. Help a sister out here, and let's work together to keep this thread on topic, (no small feat if it takes off) please.

Grateful you are throwing down too,
TWISI

The skeptics are too busy at the end of this grading period.

If you want something to argue about, use the search function - I believe I've already blown all the above away here at ATS in the past. Me or a handful of others, that is.

Harte

[edit on 9/26/2008 by Harte]

Originally posted by Harte
The skeptics are too busy at the end of this grading period.

If you want something to argue about, use the search function - I believe I've already blown all the above away here at ATS in the past. Me or a handful of others, that is.

Harte
[edit on 9/26/2008 by Harte]

I did use the search function you arrogant *snip* and nowhere are you or anyone else discussing The Osirion blowing it or otherwise. So I guess I've made a salient point and it stands.

Score is currently:

Curious Out of the Box Thinkers - 1 -- Pseudo-Wizened Sages - 0

GO TEAM!



Mod Note: General ATS Discussion Etiquette – Please Review This Link.
Courtesy Is Mandatory

[edit on 26-9-2008 by 12m8keall2c]

I have my own questions about the Osirion. Bottom line for me is that there is no evidence of it being prehistoric as well as no evidence of it being built by anyone other than ancient egyptians.

On a scale of interest, for me, this deserves a yawn.

cormac

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt

Originally posted by Harte
The skeptics are too busy at the end of this grading period.

If you want something to argue about, use the search function - I believe I've already blown all the above away here at ATS in the past. Me or a handful of others, that is.

Harte
[edit on 9/26/2008 by Harte]

I did use the search function you arrogant Copulation Face and nowhere are you or anyone else discussing The Osirion blowing it or otherwise. So I guess I've made a salient point and it stands.

Score is currently:

Curious Out of the Box Thinkers - 1 -- Pseudo-Wizened Sages - 0

GO TEAM!

Hmmm. Seems like I was right.

Gee, lying about ancient Egypt is rubbing off from the authors to their readers, apparently.

That's a penalty. -2

Score:
Curious Out of the Box Thinkers - negative 1
People that use their own brains - positive 1

Harte

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
I have my own questions about the Osirion.

Really, what are they? I'd like to know.

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
Bottom line for me is that there is no evidence of it being prehistoric as well as no evidence of it being built by anyone other than ancient egyptians.

On a scale of interest, for me, this deserves a yawn.

Aww, I'm sorry to be making you sleepy so early in the day, truly. And I guess I'm glad to be obliquely told what you're bottom line is in terms of evidence. The point raised here though, in regards to The Osirion, is that the Orthodoxy mostly stands by it being New Kingdom and the implications of that. (See Above)

The issue here is not that we are going to mostly be discussing 'new undiscovered topics', -- (although it seems we're starting with one with The Osirion). In order to have this conversation at all, and not just be spinning wheels, a precendent needs to be laid out for obvious dating errors on behalf of the Establishment.

I believe the Osirion is a perfect example of that, hence the that being the lede.

Originally posted by Harte

Hmmm. Seems like I was right.

Gee, lying about ancient Egypt is rubbing off from the authors to their readers, apparently.

That's a penalty. -2

Score:
Curious Out of the Box Thinkers - negative 1
People that use their own brains - positive 1

Harte

I like you better when you have a sense of humour and that was funny.

Okay, I clicked on your link to the forum which:
a) I did not know existed, I'm relatively new to this
b) the forum does not come up when one is doing a search, so does it count? AND
C) bring that on over here and I'll be happy to get down in the dirt with you about it.

Until then, I say my scoring stands

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt

Originally posted by Harte

Hmmm. Seems like I was right.

Gee, lying about ancient Egypt is rubbing off from the authors to their readers, apparently.

That's a penalty. -2

Score:
Curious Out of the Box Thinkers - negative 1
People that use their own brains - positive 1

Harte

I like you better when you have a sense of humour and that was funny.

Okay, I clicked on your link to the forum which:
a) I did not know existed, I'm relatively new to this
b) the forum does not come up when one is doing a search, so does it count? AND
C) bring that on over here and I'll be happy to get down in the dirt with you about it.

Until then, I say my scoring stands

Dude.

What's "the forum?"

I did a google search on the "Oseirion" and "Harte." I can never find anything either with the search function they have here! Why? It's probably me!

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
Dude.

What's "the forum?"

I did a google search on the "Oseirion" and "Harte." I can never find anything either with the search function they have here! Why? It's probably me!

Harte

That and you're spelling might be an issue... It would never have occurred to me to mangle that word that way (and the site you linked to in the forum? Doesn't spell like that either)

FYI, I searched the two most widely used spellings "Osirion" (google hits 32, 400) and even Osireion (google hits 19, 300).

Your creative spelling of "Oseirion"? 312 hits.

Now, you sir, have impugned my integrity with your suggestion that I prevaricate. (smacks your face with a glove) I demand satisfaction! ...

.....So, say your sorry you called me a liar (stamps foot).

And bring it if you got it, otherwise my scoring still stands.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
That and you're spelling might be an issue... It would never have occurred to me to mangle that word that way (and the site you linked to in the forum? Doesn't spell like that either)

FYI, I searched the two most widely used spellings "Osirion" (google hits 32, 400) and even Osireion (google hits 19, 300).

Your creative spelling of "Oseirion"? 312 hits.

Now, you sir, have impugned my integrity with your suggestion that I prevaricate. (smacks your face with a glove) I demand satisfaction! ...

.....So, say your sorry you called me a liar (stamps foot).

And bring it if you got it, otherwise my scoring still stands.

LOL, well, anyway you spell it, it spells "built in Egypt by Egyptians!"

Your scoring is similar to that of Russians in the Moscow Olympics - basically meaningless unless you can address the presence of Seti's cartouche behind the crumbled sandstone wall and within the actual dovetail joint, found only after the joint broke.

Harte

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by TheWayISeeIt

 

The way you see it, is the way I see it.

Like bff-texan I had to post to get this one my list.

Can't one just subscribe to the thread? Sorry for the off-topic, but I'm confused as to why you post instead of subscribe.

Originally posted by Aislin

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by TheWayISeeIt

 

The way you see it, is the way I see it.

Like bff-texan I had to post to get this one my list.

Can't one just subscribe to the thread? Sorry for the off-topic, but I'm confused as to why you post instead of subscribe.

Its funny you say so. In my 3 years here, I have not once used that button.

Here´s you teaching the Forum Moderator how to use ATS

______________________


Just to say something on-topic: In the course of your research you will find out that the Osirion is most certainly not built by Sethos/Seti.

The only people who this will be a surprise to is the dumb parrots who know nothing other than what they´ve been told.

[edit on 26-9-2008 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Sorry about the more or less OT post, but don't you guys know that you can click the button that says SUBSCRIBE at the bottom of the page when viewing a thread, and it will then show up in your MY ATS page? You don't have to post to the thread.

I'll be watching this one with interest as I've heard very little about this topic before now.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt

And bring it if you got it, otherwise my scoring still stands.

Originally posted by TheHarte

LOL, well, anyway you spell it, it spells "built in Egypt by Egyptians!"

Your scoring is similar to that of Russians in the Moscow Olympics - basically meaningless unless you can address the presence of Seti's cartouche behind the crumbled sandstone wall and within the actual dovetail joint, found only after the joint broke.

Harte

Okay... first of all you brought nothin', i.e. the LINK from the forum page you've been carrying on about as your great blowing away of the topic at hand - The OSIRION. So allow me to do that for you: Click HERE for Harte's big, final-word link where he is getting his super informed position from!

"Hey shoe? Meet the other foot!" Honestly, you guys go on and on about how we Curious Outside of the Box Thinkers use whatever website fits our agenda and you serve this up?

Actually, you don't even deign to serve it up, you make me go do it for you while you just rehash the postion of Larry Orcutt who is clearly copying and pasting something from other unattributed texts that are clearly not associated with each other.

Anyway, and again, the point of the Osirion in this context is to point out the conflict of the dating by The Establishment aka the sworn enemy of The Curious Outside of the Box Thinkers who are getting 1 point for Harte's lazy approach!

Cheers!

PS - When, and if, you or anyone else on your team gets it together to come back with Larry Olcutt's sources, you can bring that on too. We're ready for ya'!

edits: for bbcode error

[edit on 26-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]

[edit on 26-9-2008 by TheWayISeeIt]