Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive

reply to post by Titus7


Instead of trying to derail a discussion with inanity and irrelevant analogies, why don't you tell people why it wouldn't work?

You know, actually contribute something.

After reading the New Scientist article, I won't pretend to understand the science, but the idea itself sounds fascinating, and if it's really workable could herald some interesting times

Spellbound makes a very good point.

Who dumps so much toxic waste off the coast of Somalia to destroy the fishing industry and give rise to piracy?

What is the only country to intentionally blow up satellites?

Who sends their teens to "internet addiction" camps where they get beaten to death?

If China is to lead the way in technology and aerospace, mankind has a very dim and brutal future to look forward to.

China's human rights record is abominable. And there are folks on ATS who think they should lead the world!! LMAO> These must be the same 14 year old kids who just hate the US and think China is great. My, my, my what a painted world some live in (or think they live in).

Im sure this technology will be used as a stepping stone to new things but i dont this this new "drive" is it.

So...could we get some actual physicists on ATS to chime in on this? The idea behind it seems to be getting some slack and branded as pseudo science. It's all well and easy to simply say mainstream science is like a religion these days, anything going against the status quo is shunned immediately. But i'd like a more concrete opinion. As for China, it is basically going through our own version of the industrial revolution in some regards. A billion strong country needs one hell of an infrastructure, like Britain had it's rabid capitalism and all the negatives that come with it China is doing the same...doesn't make it right by any means but it's the most efficient way of building up a country.

[edit on 17-11-2009 by Solomons]

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by Titus7

 

No.

No.

And No.

What, exactly, are you objecting to?

Conservation of Momentum.
Momentum is a conserved quantity, meaning that the total momentum of any closed system (one not affected by external forces) cannot change.

What he's saying is that one end is bigger than the other end, which means there is more surface area for the microwaves to expand on to and hit, and then there's less surface area on the other side so that there is less surface area and thus less area for the transference of force.

However, not only will the narrow area slow down the microwaves, but they also interact with the sidewalls and each other.

This means that all that REALLY happens is you've got a chamber that you're heating with no real purpose.

No.
Propulsion.
Period.

Originally posted by Titus7
I challenge you, ATS, to tell me how it's PROPOSED to work, the scientific principles behind it, and then once you've realized how it doesn't work, EXPLAIN TO ME WHY IT DOESN'T.

I can tell you the main point of contention. Skeptics say that the lift is provided by air current due to particle ionization. The exact verbiage:

the Biefeld-Brown effect — charged metal surfaces ionise the surrounding air by corona discharge, and create an ‘"ion wind" which pushes the apparatus along

www.wired.com...

They say it would do nothing in a vacuum like space. But Shawyer says this was already proven incorrect early on in the project.

"Air currents from whatever source were eliminated in the first Proof of Concept project by testing the experimental thruster mounted in a hermetically sealed box. The experiment was reviewed and accepted by professional government scientists." [The research was being supported by the British government at the time.]

As for the theory on why and how this works, read it for yourself.

emdrive.com...

He is proposing a reactionless drive and that directly violates the experimentally proven and generally accepted principle of conservation of momentum.

He claims that while it is a reactionless drive, it does not in fact violate the laws of momentum conservation.

But that can't be, hence all the scientific opposition.

But hey, maybe the Chinese have made it work, they have come a long way since chopsticks, but I'd still like to see some empirical data and not just the usual vague claims on the Interwebs.

Originally posted by sos37
I can tell you the main point of contention. Skeptics say that the lift is provided by air current due to particle ionization. The exact verbiage:

the Biefeld-Brown effect — charged metal surfaces ionise the surrounding air by corona discharge, and create an ‘"ion wind" which pushes the apparatus along

www.wired.com...

They say it would do nothing in a vacuum like space. But Shawyer says this was already proven incorrect early on in the project.

"Air currents from whatever source were eliminated in the first Proof of Concept project by testing the experimental thruster mounted in a hermetically sealed box. The experiment was reviewed and accepted by professional government scientists." [The research was being supported by the British government at the time.]

As for the theory on why and how this works, read it for yourself.

emdrive.com...

The amount of power required to create the magical "thrust" it makes is high, and the "thrust" is very very low, so even if it works via Ion Wind, it's not strong enough to do any work in our atmosphere.

"Professional Government Scientists". How delightfully vague.

Hermetically sealed doesn't mean completely air tight, it means it won't allow dirt and whatnot to enter. Although for all intents and purposed, it is likely that it's a "as much as makes no difference" situation.

The site itself isn't really a good example of "unbiased" testing.

And why isn't it still supported by the British Government?

And why is there such strong opposition, and also almost no public knowledge of it?


Basically, when an object interacts with another object, there is an equal and opposite reaction. In this case, you have high velocity particles hitting the front plate, rear plate, each other, and the side walls. It's just energy transference, there is no appreciable effect other than heating the area.

The tapered design will not allow for more energy transference to the larger end than the smaller end. It will all amount to the same.


What he's proposing is the equivalent to pushing on your steering wheel, hoping it'll propel you forward.

[edit on 18-11-2009 by Titus7]

Let jusy hope they keep us up-to-date with whatever happens in this project.

Im glad that this guy is taken seriously he is curious and strong. Einstein once said.

“A scientist is a mimosa when he himself has made a mistake, and a roaring lion when he discovers a mistake of others.”

Originally posted by halfmanhalfamazing
Im glad that this guy is taken seriously he is curious and strong. Einstein once said.

“A scientist is a mimosa when he himself has made a mistake, and a roaring lion when he discovers a mistake of others.”

While that's a nice quote, it doesn't pertain to this situation.

If you pushed on your steering wheel in your car, would it move forward?
No.
Why?
The energy you'd be putting in to the steering wheel would be bouncing back in to you. Hence why you'd be more likely to move backwards in to your seat than the car would move forward. Or why, if you really leaned in to it, you'd be leaning forward with all your weight and yet being suspended by it, thus stopping you from being able to move any farther forward.

This is supposed to be an EMdrive. Looks like it moves doesnt it?

Originally posted by Titus7

Originally posted by halfmanhalfamazing
Im glad that this guy is taken seriously he is curious and strong. Einstein once said.

“A scientist is a mimosa when he himself has made a mistake, and a roaring lion when he discovers a mistake of others.”

While that's a nice quote, it doesn't pertain to this situation.

.

Just like this response you just gave????

I was trying to point out how these

Scientists not only argued that Shawyer's work was blatantly impossible, and hat his reasoning was flawed

guys were turning into LIONS.

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by round_eyed_dog

 

If China succeeds, take cover everyone.

Remember - China is a country that does not care about its citizens, and does not care about mankind.

China is a huge threat and I believe that China will be instrumental in the end of our world - they will perish as well, which is a bit pointless.

Actually China is the best candidate for success in such experiments why ? Well because sometimes it is good to be communits all the way. They do not care about money because the goverment owns most of the country . They do not care about workforce as they have more then enough.

So while in the western parts of the world , big companies lobby against such ideas , (because they will loose huge ammounts of money) and usually win the day , in china nobody cares if such and such company has something against some new device ;]

Dont get me wrong , I still think china is a big problem in many areas , such as human rights etc.. but when it comes to making new ideas work , this is the ideal place to hide from all those greedy multi-billion dollar companies that want to stop you

Originally posted by halfmanhalfamazing

Originally posted by Titus7

Originally posted by halfmanhalfamazing
Im glad that this guy is taken seriously he is curious and strong. Einstein once said.

“A scientist is a mimosa when he himself has made a mistake, and a roaring lion when he discovers a mistake of others.”

While that's a nice quote, it doesn't pertain to this situation.

.

Just like this response you just gave????

I was trying to point out how these

Scientists not only argued that Shawyer's work was blatantly impossible, and hat his reasoning was flawed

guys were turning into LIONS.

It's a fair explanation, yes.

It doesn't mean that they're wrong, though.

I love how things always say "scientists", as though there's just some out there who watch everything and get all butt hurt over things and then make things not happen or some crap.

Originally posted by Waldy

This is supposed to be an EMdrive. Looks like it moves doesnt it?

Cool video, bro.
There's also videos of magnet drives that are hooked up to volt meters that are supposedly putting out more voltage than they're taking in.

To quote Cap'n Kirk: "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN"

reply to post by sir_chancealot


The scientist should always be a skeptic, until all avenues are paved with evidence. Othwewise we end up chasing superstition and crackpots.

If this Chinese bunch of dudes can pull off the impossible, then let's see it. Let them prove themselves right.

Just don't get your panties in a twist if it turns out those evil ,evil, eeeeeeviiiiil scientists are correct in their assesment.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by sir_chancealot

 

The scientist should always be a skeptic, until all avenues are paved with evidence. Otherwise we end up chasing superstition and crackpots.

If this Chinese bunch of dudes can pull off the impossible, then let's see it. Let them prove themselves right.

Just don't get your panties in a twist if it turns out those evil evil eeeeeeviiiiil scientists are correct in their assessment.

Come on, man! This is ATS. If it turns out they're right and Shawyer was wrong, it's because the oil government illuminati freemason satanic corporation of America obviously killed him and everyone in China who had anything to do with this, not to mention covered it up.
Although these are the same governments/secret societies that are often referred to as "idiots". :/

Seriously, though. I agree whole heartedly.
Skepticism and Cautiousness is a key aspect of the scientific process.
Doesn't mean they say it's impossible, just that it will require evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt to prove itself.

Although in this case, evidence or not, this propulsion device will not work.

your right titus7 in that this is a web site where all sorts of 'crazy' stuff is talked about, but thats the point, thats why this place exists at all, to discuss the impossible, to bring together the improbable and maybe once and awhile hit the nail on the head and get it right, and if we don't well who cares?
I can see both side's of the argument here and like you I won't to see the fine print but I'm not going to naysay something just because someone tells me it's impossible, not after what I've seen in my travels (thinking of India here in particular) they told the Wright Brothers that flying was impossible but hell I'm going skydiving tomorrow so wadda ya know eh!
Doubt is good, doubt is necessary especially in science, but when it stops you seeing the miracles going on around you and only seeing in black and white thats when you start to die inside bro.
Even if it turns out to be bollocks (and it probably will) ya gotta keep the pot bubbling to get new ideas and ya gotta take the lid off to test it!
happy new year geezer