Serapis - a genetically engineered Hybrid?

Okay, for those of you advancing your theory of man-bull hybrids, I ask you... Where's your evidence? Where are the actual remains? The laboratories? actual documentation of the process?

Well that would be a good idea.

When dealing with myths and documents you have four choices

1. Consider them fakes and ignore them
2. Consider them gospel and believe them completely
3. Consider them to be myths and not believable
4. Consider them to possibly have correct information and develop a criteria to figure out which is real and what is imagination.

Most people go with 4.

Most people who go with 4 then use the the criteria of....can I find something to verify what the myths are saying.

Sooo whatcha got?

I still am wondering about the Sun Sky, what do myths tell us about what the Sun is?

reply to post by Hanslune


Well, the way I figure is that if a group of people has progressed their science to the capability of creating man-bull genetic hybrids (Let's ignore, for the moment, the actualities of genetics for this) then certainly such a culture would have left actual documentation of their methods and the results - not vague, heavily interpretative myths.

we have the equations that tell us about hte speed of light, the studies and experiments and documentations. We don't have a mythcycle about how the "Great Thinker" traveeld to distant stars on the breath of the holy fire of the sky...

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


As explained in the OP, the ancient text-writers were relying on memories that were ancient even to them.

As for evidence: Take for example the tombs containing embalmbed mummies with bulls heads and the bones of birds and jackals.

reply to post by Skyfloating


That's a pretty big assumption. First you have to assume that there was an ancient civilization that could (apparently) wriggle its nose and combine humans and cows. Second, you have to assume they left NOTHING behind, nothing, zip, zilch, nada. Third you have to assume that the other people around them also had nothing other than a vague oral history of these people, and then you have to assume that they never went to the left-behind remnants of this super-culture to lay claim to it and re-engineer all the stuff they did, which is exactly what always happens when one civilization crashes.

Bull heads with jackal bones? Here's an exercise for you. Look up "jackalope" on google. See, there's this practice called "taxidermy". Using the methods of taxidermy - methods which are very similar and related to embalming and mummification - you can combine two animals to make a hodge-podge sculpture of different critter bits.

Occam's razor needs to be in effect at all times

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

Occam's razor needs to be in effect at all times

I second this

Wheres some evidence? I see none anywhere to be seen.

Indeed Occams razor wants me to take the most simple explanation when viewing pictures of Hybrids and discovering tombs with Hybrids in them: Hybrids!

Seriously folks, get up to speed with space-age-thought.

reply to post by Skyfloating


So when you play World of Warcraft, do you expect Orcs to come crashing through your front door, too? 'Cause you're seeing orcs on your screen, that must make them real, by the logic you're using here.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

So when you play World of Warcraft, do you expect Orcs to come crashing through your front door, too? 'Cause you're seeing orcs on your screen, that must make them real, by the logic you're using here.

World of Warcraft is labelled as a "fictional universe". The historians (see OP) described described regular events.

In fact, Manetho is referenced as an authority on Egypt by plenty of scholars.

On Occams dull razor:

Anti-razors have also been created by Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646–1716), Immanuel Kant (1724–1804), and Karl Menger. Leibniz's version took the form of a principle of plenitude, as Arthur Lovejoy has called it, the idea being that God created the most varied and populous of possible worlds. Kant felt a need to moderate the effects of Occam's Razor and thus created his own counter-razor: "The variety of beings should not rashly be diminished."[16] Einstein also famously remarked, "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler."[17] Karl Menger found mathematicians to be too parsimonious with regard to variables so he formulated his Law Against Miserliness which took one of two forms: "Entities must not be reduced to the point of inadequacy" and "It is vain to do with fewer what requires more". See "Ockham's Razor and Chatton's Anti-Razor" (1984) by Armand Maurer.

reply to post by Skyfloating


The hinge of your evidence of hybridization is the presence of non-bull bones in a bull mummy, right?

Dou you understand that hybridization would result in bones that were neither bull nor any other animal sort, but that would be unique to the creature in question?

Also, other evidence you posit is Manethos' history regarding the reign of the gods. See, here's the funny thing about Egyptian gods - according to the Egyptians, they existed way before humans. You know, part of the whole "god" thing. So while your un-sourced excerpt scoffs at the notiuon of egyptologists not placing much concern on the chronology of the gods, there's a pretty good reason, and it's the same reason that modern archaologists don't buy into the Judeo-christian belief in the world being six thousand years old.

reply to post by Skyfloating


This would seem quite a significant pyramid - the first. And its builder also as important:

step pyramid

www.ancientnile.co.uk...

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

The hinge of your evidence of hybridization is the presence of non-bull bones in a bull mummy, right?

Thats one piece of evidence in an overall cause for ancient hybrids which makes use of a number of pieces, among them ancient scripture, historical accounts, images, and the theory that our future (genetic engineering) is someone elses past.

Dou you understand that hybridization would result in bones that were neither bull nor any other animal sort, but that would be unique to the creature in question?

Yes, correct. The overall theory of ancient GE states that later civilizations only attempted copies of that which the "Gods" (in this case Ptah) did long ago.

Also, other evidence you posit is Manethos' history regarding the reign of the gods. See, here's the funny thing about Egyptian gods - according to the Egyptians, they existed way before humans. You know, part of the whole "god" thing. So while your un-sourced excerpt scoffs at the notiuon of egyptologists not placing much concern on the chronology of the gods, there's a pretty good reason, and it's the same reason that modern archaologists don't buy into the Judeo-christian belief in the world being six thousand years old.

Its correct that the Gods were there way before the civilization we know as "ancient egypt" arose.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Thats one piece of evidence in an overall cause for ancient hybrids which makes use of a number of pieces, among them ancient scripture, historical accounts, images, and the theory that our future (genetic engineering) is someone elses past.

The trouble is, scripture and art can very easily simply be imaginary figures and ideas transferred to art form, and the history in question relies strongly on religious mythcycles. Just because I draw a picture of a three-headed man with a goat's hindquarters doesn't mean that I'm documenting the existence of such a creature, you see?

You want to say genetic engineering was accomplished in the past? You're going to need some evidence of it. There are lots of tools and machines needed for genetics work in the present, and I see no reason why the same wouldn't be true for a past civilization, even one advanced beyond us - even if all it took was a magic crystal ray-zapper, then there would need to be evidence of said ray-zapper.

Yes, correct. The overall theory of ancient GE states that later civilizations only attempted copies of that which the "Gods" (in this case Ptah) did long ago.

So this speculation (we're talking science here, it's certainly no theory) states that Ptah genetically hybridized animals together, and that this is proven by the speculative assumption that later peoples were trying to copy it?

That's some nice circular logic there.

While the beef carcass jumble is certainly odd, a better approach would be trying to figure out why it is the way it is, rather than trying to shoehorn it in as evidence of ancient genetic engineering... especially when you admit that the find in no way resembles anything like genetic engineering!

Its correct that the Gods were there way before the civilization we know as "ancient egypt" arose.

Is it also correct that the world was nothing but an endless sea, until a lotus rose from its depths, revealing Ra, who masturbated and created the land from his puddle of semen? Or is it true that the world was formed from the struggle between the force-deities of the Ogdoad? or was the world formed from the dead body of Ymir, the first giant? Did YHWH wave his hand and make it all happen

But let's stick with hte "Ra made it" of classical Egyptian myth. Surely we can find Ra's genetic hallmarks from his semen, thus the dirt underfoot, right?

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


You´ve got to see this tiny puzzle-piece of thread in the context of Cosmic History WalkingFox.

Due to over-reliance on traditional schooling, you are of course unfamiliar with Cosmic History and struggle to understand unfamiliar notions.

Some comments

In fact, Manetho is referenced as an authority on Egypt by plenty of scholars.

Yes and his three books have a tortured past. That aside when he got to myths he was just repeating what he read and heard about. As did many other ancient writers. There writing about a myth doesn't mean its real.

Humans are imaginative creatures, they also have - all cultures - dreams and nightmares about monsters. Since dreams were once considered "real" the belef in said monsters is easy to understand - especially when birth defects in humans and animals often delievered shocking evidence of gross possibilities- not to mention the finding of fossil bones.

When talking 'genetic mod' you are applying modern belief/ideas to justified for our own needs our ancient ancestors fears and observations of the world they didn't understand that surrounded them.

Stories of Hybrids created by those who posed as "Gods" dont just pop up coincidentally around the globe.

"Myths" are based on actual events. Consider the aborigines. Some of their stories were labelled as "myth" by the 17th-century settlers who couldnt look beyond their own preconceptions and then later confirmed as scientific fact...much later. The best example are Aboriginal stories describing what the landscape looked 17 000 years ago...only recently confirmed by geologists.

Or look at the global spread of data on ancient serpents. Certainly no coincidence as your faction would have it.

reply to post by kidflash2008


Why not pop over to the Graham Hancock .com website prior to buying his book. You can leave a message on the board for him with any questions that you have in relation to his books etc.

The website IMHO is updated regularly and is an excellent source of news and discussion on a variety of subjects but particularly what intereststs you in this thread.


I have a copy of Fingerprints and allthough time has passed and errrors made, it's fair to say the book is well written and a superb read.

IMHO it is the likes of Hancock who have been pushing "Proper" historians and archeologist to pull their fingers out and start asking qustions of themselves.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

The hinge of your evidence of hybridization is the presence of non-bull bones in a bull mummy, right?

It's interesting that you bring that up, Sky -- there's a whole whopping body of evidence that the mummy makers were making "art objects" for burial rather than mummifying real animals.

The demand for animal mummies for sacrifices to the gods was high, but the process is really time-consuming and it's not always easy to sacrifice something like a cat or a baboon. They usually object, they're strong for their size, and they've got lots of pointy bits. Sometimes they'd use puppies (easier to kill) or other objects. I believe they used dogs for the jackals but can't find my reference now.

On this page at the bottom is info about a puppy that was actually passed off as a cat mummy for an Egyptian burial.
www.albanyinstitute.org...

If they didn't have a handy animal of the right size, they would also use sticks and rocks and anything else that gave it the right weight.

This page also mentions them and has some photos of them (and you can clearly see that there wouldn't be any sort of cat in there! )
atheism.about.com...

See, here's the funny thing about Egyptian gods - according to the Egyptians, they existed way before humans.

Their gods had quite a lengthy and varied history, changing over time according to which gods were the most popular. Bast, interestingly enough, is one of the oldest but doesn't have many stories written about her. After the Ptolomies came into power around 450 BC, she becomes sort of the "fluffy mother goddess" -- originally she was the "Eye of Ra" and "bringer of justice."

But...that's another story for another time. Serapis also comes from the Ptolomey era -- at the very end of the "ancient Egyptian culture" and at a time when Egypt became a subsidiary of the Greek empire and later the Romans.

Burial and sacrificial offerings changed a lot over the 4,000 years in Egypt before the Romans took it over around 40 BC. And after the Romans got there, it became VERY Romanized... the coffins from the Greek and Roman periods are so very distinctive.


[edit on 29-9-2008 by Byrd]

reply to post by Skyfloating


Howdy Sky

Sorry no Sky not ALL myths are based on reality. Some are just made up stuff to try and explain things, or entertain. If one myths turns out to be based partially or totally on fact that in itself doesn't mean all other myths are factual.

Lets reverse it, let say myth X is not factually based, does that mean that all other myths are proven to be not factually based?

Could you link to the Aboriginial one please?

I don't get your point about serpents, explain further.

May I assume you are using the word myth to include myth, fairy tales, folklore and legend but excluding fables?