Cern has to heat up for repair then cool back down

I well understand the problems of CERN has a number of open threads.

This tack is a bit different. If the mods feel it should be moved to a more appropriate place by all means please do.

I am reading that CERN now has a shutdown date until 2009. The wires that burned out across magnets area needs to be reheated so repairs can be performed than recooled. What I never read in any of media releases is that the superconnectivity has to be cooled to -430 kelvin, colder than space.

My question is. Why can they just not have NASA styled space suits to perform repairs without this very costly and time consuming step?
From Yahoo.com
Small accidents mean big trouble for supercollider By ALEXANDER G. HIGGINS

Sun Sep 21, 1:55 PM ET
GENEVA - Scientists expect startup glitches in the massive, complex machines they use to smash atoms.

But the unique qualities of the world's largest particle collider mean that the meltdown of a small electrical connection could delay its groundbreaking research until next year, scientists said Sunday.

Because the Large Hadron Collider operates at near absolute zero — colder than outer space — the damaged area must be warmed to a temperature where humans can work. That takes about a month. Then it has to be re-chilled for another month.

As a result, the equipment may not be running again before the planned shutdown of the equipment for the winter to reduce electricity costs. That means Friday's meltdown could end up putting off high-energy collisions of particles — the machine's ultimate objective — until 2009.

"Hopefully we'll come online and go quickly to full energy a few months into 2009 so in the long term, this may not end up being such a large delay in the physics program," Seth Zenz, a graduate student from the University of California, wrote on the site of the U.S. physicists working at the European Organization for Nuclear Research, or CERN.

"It's obviously a short-term disappointment, though, and a lost opportunity," he wrote.

CERN spokesman James Gillies said the repair operation will last until close to the usual winter shutdown time at the end of November. There has been some discussion that the new equipment could operate through the winter, but no decision has been made, he said.

The melting of the wire connecting two magnets Friday would have taken only a couple of days to repair on smaller, room-temperature accelerators that have been in use for decades, Gillies said.

Gillies said particle accelerators using superconducting equipment at Fermilab outside Chicago and at Brookhaven National Laboratory in New York state had similar problems starting up, but have been operating smoothly since then.

"Once they settled in they seem to be pretty stable," Gillies said.

At the Sept. 10 launch of the collider, beams of protons from the nuclei of atoms were fired first at the speed of light in a clockwise direction though a fire-hose-sized tube in the tunnel. Then proton beams were fired in the counterclockwise tube.

Jos Engelen, CERN's chief scientific officer and deputy director-general, said the startup showed that the LHC can handle complex operations.

[edit on 9/21/2008 by jpm1602]

(ex tags)

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Jbird]

Oh well. I feel like Norm on cheers. I've got a bone wrapped around my neck in this dog eat dog life.
I thought it was compelling for discussion.
But I think wrong alot. At least I don't star myself. I still have some self respect left.

[edit on 9/21/2008 by jpm1602]

Hey!

For what it is worth, I think it is a good thread you started.

I am surprised more people in the know and scientifically based didn't respond. I don't really have anything to add, just wanted to let you know that I am concerned about the outcome of the LHC as well.

Good question - I suspect it has to do with how materials used in the LHC construction become very brittle at low temperatures. By trying to make a repair at low temperature, they would risk damaging the LHC further.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by C.H.U.D.]

news.yahoo.com...

The experiment aims to recreate conditions immediately after the "Big Bang" explosion which cosmologists believe is at the origin of our expanding universe.

It will do this by sending beams of subatomic particles around the 17-mile (27-km) subterranean tunnel to smash into each other at close to the speed of light.

These collisions will explode in a burst of energy and of new and previously unseen particles, whose existence, in some cases, has been predicted by particle physicists.

(For a full summary technical report on the incident at CERN, click on: edms.cern.ch... )

Wouldn't all matter be going away from one another and the chance
of collision have nothing to do with the Big Bang.

Now the "The Big Bang Never Happened" by Eric Lerner has
billion amp currents being ejected from super galaxies but
still no chance of banging protons together.

Bogus Illuminati pop science narrowed down the future in Physics
to particle abuse and sent graduates to AIG to make big money.

It's kinda "old news" which is why you didn't get much of a response at first. But.... yeah... kinda sucks. I hope everything goes right with the LHC next time!

Well, if everything is supercooled while you work on it I would imagine it would be very brittle. If you have to weld something I think the piece would just shatter, also how would you bend wires?

I think it is laughable that this billion's of dollar experiment is going to wait to turn on for the first time to save on the electric bill because it is winter?

That is political correctness gone mad. Heck the power company should just donate the extra cost to get this thing turned on for the first time. That is completely out of touch with reality. I can see in a few years once most experimenting is routine that they would turn it off to save ojn the electric bill...but to hold back the very first start of this several billion dollar experiment to save a few bucks is nuts lol.

My hypothesis about the LHC is that it is going to be used to create element 115. But first they need to know how the machine will work. We already have element 114, but 115 does not appear on the planet(although we are suppose to have some). The Defense Research and Engineering company (JASON) and the Feberation of American Scientist have been studing element 115 since the 1940's(possibly earlier). The small LHC (Fermilab's) that is in America near chicago wasn't powerful enough to do the job. So they created a larger one. Once they can create element 115 and possibly element 230, energy will be infinte. I haven't really gotten every tie i need to complete my theory but i'm working on proving it.
If you have anything to add please do.
thanks

Originally posted by Xeven
I think it is laughable that this billion's of dollar experiment is going to wait to turn on for the first time to save on the electric bill because it is winter?

That is political correctness gone mad. Heck the power company should just donate the extra cost to get this thing turned on for the first time. That is completely out of touch with reality. I can see in a few years once most experimenting is routine that they would turn it off to save ojn the electric bill...but to hold back the very first start of this several billion dollar experiment to save a few bucks is nuts lol.

People need the power for heating. It's not just a matter of paying for the extra electricity; there isn't an infinite amount out there that you can get access to just by paying money. In the long run, maybe; more power plants could be constructed. But for just a few months? It's not worth it. There probably isn't enough power generated during the winter to supply both CERN and the heating needs of the countries involved without risking rolling blackouts.

Thank you for the replies. All very logical excellent points. Things I had not thought of.
ATS rocks and so do the members.

[edit on 10/31/2008 by jpm1602]