2008-09-19 IIG Press Release Concerning Michael Horn and Billy Meier

Originally posted by NightVision


Pathetic is enduring thread after thread of these minute arguments, Horn, and all the other crazies.

It leaves little wonder why this area of interest never gets past conjecture. It's filled with the blind and dumb.

Interesting how the insults just fly with you with little/no help.

Just remember NV when you point a finger at someone you have 3 pointing back at you. You hurl more insults per post than the average member so you are really not one to lecture other members about how easily the insults fly.


As for Billy Meier... I am tired of the threads.. really tired, because he has already been proven a liar on some accts. It shatters his credibility in my humble opinion for all claims after that.

[edit on 19-9-2008 by NephraTari]

Why can't you leave his poor man alone? (Meier)

So you have decided he is a Liar, then why not just let it be? his life was almost destroyed by self centered people trying to use his name and claims for their own agendas, does this mean that you want to destroy the life of Horn also?

The only thing i see coming from all this, is tears, and im betting not yours OP.

I have my own opinion of Billy Meier, and it has got nothing to do with fakes or crazy claims , more like manipulation mixed with cover up, why drag all this along for so long? you made your statement, now let everyone either accept it or not, may i ask have you sat with Billy? Listened to his stories? Lived with him and made an effort to understand the man?

I f you look a little deeper, and then be honest with your claims then ill listen, until then im going to avoid your threads and post's.

IMHO i think your press release is just another push to promote some agenda, and then we shall see the money side of it an know for sure.

Im sorry but it is people like you, who convinced Billy Meier to reveal to much in the first place, and i challenge you to offer indisputable proof that Billy, Produced the Photographs you are talking about, why not talk to those who told him they would manage all his material in the USA, with a promise to get his message to the world, His message not theirs, which is what happened, and you know it was that way.

So don't push Billy further down the hole created for him, go see him for yourself, and then make up your mind.

How does this hurt you anyhow? i can't see where it effects you at all, other than to build up your coffers?

Sounds like im having a dig? not at all, just trying to defend a defenseless old man, who seems to have had his life taken away.

I refuse to take your word for it, or that of Horn, you really expect Horn to be the fall guy? of course not, its all Billys fault. sad

Originally posted by NightVision


Pathetic is enduring thread after thread of these minute arguments, Horn, and all the other crazies.

And why would you have to "endure" these threads?

You read the thread title, which clearly explains what this thread is about. You knew damn well what to expect, so why did you click it? Why did you read it?

I believe you clicked it just so you could have a whinge and moan about the demise of ATS and UFOlogy.

It seems to me that you are a terminal complainer and while I used to be very fond of your posts, having exactly the same point of view on most things myself, I now see you as a curmudgeon who is coming across quite obnoxious in your posts. Your posts seem quite arrogant nowadays, there is a certain feeling of you believing yourself and your views above all.
With all due respect, NV, it seems to me that you don't actually like being here anymore. You seem to avoid the decent topics and just concentrate on topics you don't agree with so you can vent spleen at anyone who will listen. The reason you feel you have to do that, only you will know and I refuse to make presumption but I just wonder if it might be best for you to take a bit of time off here. Maybe you will find yourself a happier person for a break. You really do seem to be on here a hell of a lot and I don't think that is healthy, especially if everything about it angers you.

It's a real shame mate because I really did used to appreciate having you on this site and I was glad to see that someone else was able to cut through the bollocks and not get carried away and giddy with the slightest bobbins or being unable to keep your imagination in check.


Anyway, Des, I'm right with you here mate. The Meier crap makes me sick, it is simply hoodwinking those desperate for something else in their lives and he seems to have taken it to dangerous new levels. Michael Horn has always come across as quite a wretched and despicable man and I am glad to see his money making scheme has now been ruined by your good work. He should never be allowed to forget this, no matter which paranormal site he decided to bother next.

Well done Des!
All the best




[edit on 20-9-2008 by triplesod]

Originally posted by derekcbart

Originally posted by free_spirit
Not clear enough Mr. Derek. Therefore I would like to ask you again sir if I may.

Do you belive Mr. Derek that UFOS are fact ? Is the UFO Phenomena a reality ?

I would like a straight answer if you please. I'm a professional UFO researcher or
ufologist if you liike since the 70's and I declare here my position: UFOS are Real.
More than 60 years of this phenomena confirm this fact.

So now please be so kind to tell me Mr. Derek, do you belive UFOS are Real?

If by UFO you mean Unidentified Flying Objects, then yes. There are objects flying in the sky which are unidentified. If by UFO you mean extra-terrestrial or crypto-terrestrial flying craft, then no. There is no evidence to date (that I am aware of) that can conclusively answer that hypothesis.

I think it is important to not use the word "belief" when discussing this subject. Belief is not relevant. Evidence is what is important and it is examining the evidence which will ultimately determine the cause and nature of what is happening.

Personally, I hope that there is life on other worlds. The universe would be very lonely if we were all that there was. However, to date, I have not been made aware of any evidence that supports the hypothesis that life on other worlds has ever visited this world. I want there to be contact with other civilizations, but my wants cannot influence how the evidence is examined.

I hope this answers your question.

-Derek

Fair enough and thank you for being sincere. Regards.

Originally posted by philjwolf
reply to post by free_spirit

 

dont mean to bud in.. I have been a researcher also.. for allmost 40 years.. there is no doubt that ufos are real.. but what they are.. and where they come from.. who is controlling them.. nobody knows..

Right and I think we are getting close every day hopefully. I wonder once the mystery is
solved what will happen with so many UFO forums around, just a thought.

I'm so glad to hear of this. Its time to put this silly Billy M. thing to rest. Obvious hoaxer of the greatest extent, yet there are people that will follow these rediculous stories of his to the end. Unfortunate that such naive people have already made him a celebrity.

... The divisiveness of some subjects never ceases to amaze me. As to Billy Meier having a lying publicist... This is about as shocking as putting your tongue on a dead nine volt.

I'm astonished that the antipathy towards the OP is so vitriolic. Every day a great number of threads get posted on this site that I personally view as illogical, misdirected or just plain wrong. I have never felt that anyone should leave the boards simply because they posted something I disagreed with.

Why are skeptic or even cynical posts of less value here than anyone else's? If you disagree, make your case and state your evidence - but the slogan for ATS is "deny ignorance", not "deny opinion".

The OP here is a clearly stated piece that makes a concise point. If you take issue with it, debate it - but the tiring thing about the Meier threads is not so much the content as the immediate descent into mud slinging, in my book....

LW

Originally posted by derekcbart

Originally posted by free_spirit
Not clear enough Mr. Derek. Therefore I would like to ask you again sir if I may.

Do you belive Mr. Derek that UFOS are fact ? Is the UFO Phenomena a reality ?

I would like a straight answer if you please. I'm a professional UFO researcher or
ufologist if you liike since the 70's and I declare here my position: UFOS are Real.
More than 60 years of this phenomena confirm this fact.

So now please be so kind to tell me Mr. Derek, do you belive UFOS are Real?

If by UFO you mean Unidentified Flying Objects, then yes. There are objects flying in the sky which are unidentified. If by UFO you mean extra-terrestrial or crypto-terrestrial flying craft, then no. There is no evidence to date (that I am aware of) that can conclusively answer that hypothesis.

i totally agree with this, but while ever the unidentified remains, then vistors from other places in the universe is still one of many possibilities.

if we had evidence as to what u.f.o's are then they would'nt be unidentified, all we have is many theories and indicators pointing to different things.

i believe there are many hoaxes who exploit people who have seen a u.f.o or had an experience, inorder to make a quick buck, and as a result mislead people who are more openminded after their experience and fed with wrong information, that person is then led down a garden path rather than finding the answers they were looking for in the first place.

thanks for your OP. in my opinion exposing hoaxes is just as important, and the information should'nt be attacked or ignored just because the hoaxer says things some people want to be true.

I have to agree with the findings and research of IIG and Mr. Ritzman has put his own time in on this case as well...and I would like to urge everyone who gives two hoots about Ufology in general to put this Meier case to rest' once and for all. R.I.P.

If any of his claims ever were valid, they have been utterly destroyed by the mismanagement of that data by both him and his publicists/followers.

Derek the comment you made to the question 'do you believe in UFO's'
was right on point and most eloquently worded, and probably the best summary that any REAL RESEARCHER could rationally make
about a subject so diverse and elusive as UFO's if there was an award I could give you I would, excellent response.

Anyone who looks at this or any research subject objectively and un-emotionally attached with only the truth afforded for answers regardless of pre-conceived notions or beliefs has always got my support.

Again excellent job to you, and your team.


[edit on 20-9-2008 by Alter-Ego]

Originally posted by Alter-Ego
I have to agree with the findings and research of IIG and Mr. Ritzman has put his own time in on this case as well...and I would like to urge everyone who gives two hoots about Ufology in general to put this Meier case to rest' once and for all. R.I.P.

[edit on 20-9-2008 by Alter-Ego]

Just in case you are new in this subject this case was put to rest several decades
ago. Unfortunately there are those who still insist in debate the case over and over
on the Internet. We are in 2008 and strangely the case has survived many years
thanks to so many sterile discussions, Controversy equals to Publicity. Every time
this case is debated it receives amounts of publicity for good or bad and the case
remains alive.

It's a fact that UFOs are also entertainment and most of the people don't really care
if a case is real or not as long it is spectacular and there is no medicine for that. The
UFO phenomena is a huge industry generating millions and the people, fans and
enthusiasts are counted also by millions, they want to see clear, spectacular,
detailed and structural UFOs and if a certain case gives them what they want it
means big bussines and everybody is happy. That a reality despite so many efforts
to educate the masses. One clear example is the superpowerful Youtube converted
in the actual No. 1 promoter of fake UFO and Alien videos worldwide. But people
loves Youtube, one of the best entertainment websites in the world.

One thing has been established regarding the Billy Meier case after more than two
decades, the case is a classic meaning it has hierarchy for good or bad, like it or
not, real or hoax. So if you want to continue being involved in the UFO phenomena
as researcher, skeptic, fan or simply curious you better get accustomed to the idea
this case is going to be around for a long time, like it or not and if you don't like
the idea just relax and take it easy. As long as there are people out there still
debating this case it will remain in discussion forever.

[edit on 21-9-2008 by free_spirit]

[edit on 21-9-2008 by free_spirit]

Originally posted by free_spirit
[Just in case you are new in this subject this case was put to rest several decades
ago. Unfortunately there are those who still insist in debate the case over and over
on the Internet. We are in 2008 and strangely the case has survived many years
thanks to so many sterile discussions, Controversy equals to Publicity. Every time
this case is debated it receives amounts of publicity for good or bad and the case
remains alive.

I understand those in the UFO community that want the subject to be eradicated. But there are highly respected UFOlogists (though one man's "respected UFOlogist" is another man's fraud, of course) who give credence at least to aspects of the Meier story. John Lear for one.

There is interest, for many of us, in the psychology behind those like Meier who claim to have been contactees. He may be talking nonsense, but the reasons for his doing so are far less clear. In that sense the argument remains of interest. I'd caution people against being too keen to dismiss the entire story simply because it doesn't prove the existence of aliens. There is more to the pursuit of extra-terrestrials and what we can learn from the chase than merely finding good photographs.

LW

Originally posted by azzllin
Why can't you leave his poor man alone? (Meier)

So you have decided he is a Liar, then why not just let it be?

Great job and nice work, OP!

Here's some reasons why this "poor man" (Meier) shouldn't be left alone :

Jonestown
Manson Family
Heaven's Gate
Waco

The general public in those cases did not have access to the information that we do today, including work done by the OP and others who realize that anyone who claims to be a prophet and runs a cult is potentially dangerous.

His fraud (and boy is it ever a fraud) needs to be exposed for what it is so people will open their eyes and not blindly accept the ridiculous claims made by this "prophet".

It may seem hard to believe that a "one-armed man" could eventually do harm, but that's what everyone said about the above mentioned cult leaders before their respective incidents.

No, this should never be let go, not so long as this cult and it's leader exist. I mean c'mon, the pictures are laughable, take it from someone who worked in a model shop in Hollywood for years, they are nothing but models, really really BAD models, the book and Dean Martin photos, the HILARIOUS ray gun (lol) photos, the negatives of models (he was making for his kids, hah) , oh oh oh, the trash can lid (LOL)...

And remember the excuse when he got busted for the trash can lid? That the aliens had been beaming thoughts down, but we silly, stupid humans got it wrong and used the design for trash can lids, that Billy happened to have??? LOL@the whole thing.

Originally posted by NightVision
Pathetic is enduring thread after thread of these minute arguments, Horn, and all the other crazies.

I dont seem to recall asking to to hang around for the after party. The door is right there.

Originally posted by NightVision
Interesting how the insults just fly with you with little/no help.

It helps when dealing with mouthy internet types.

Originally posted by NightVision
You talk about proper research without any sense of irony that both Horn and your team of Meier de-bunkers are wasting your time and effort. I hope it was worth it. I'm sorry to dissapoint you guys, but even having proved this case bunk or not, there's no reward, award, or pot of gold waiting at the end of the rainbow.

Well thats quite short sighted and assumes the issue is a question of reward. There's no real "reward" in this at all, aside from the lifelong friends I have made by being involved. You point out B.S. because this deserves serious study...not to be soiled by fakes and religions to be built upon. You do your part or get out of the way. Thats how progress works.

As far as this case goes, when I was visiting the Yahoogroups Meier crowd, by virtue of what I showed them, questions I asked, and things I pointed out, 3 people left the group and now realize they'd been hoodwinked.

And, thats good enough for me. However when I see the case being promoted, just like the 97 Mexican footage, or the Guardian case...I'll still point them out as fakes and show more then ample issues why. Thats how it becomes something everyone knows. And we go on.

Originally posted by NightVision
Its the equivalent of posting threads today crusading about how O.J's. is still guilty and should be jailed. It just doesn't matter anymore. Its time to just let it go. ALL OF YOU, Horn included.

I no longer trouble with the case directly, as it truly is a waste. I've pointed out all I'm going to, and contributed to the IIG report. However, again when it comes up, I'll address it. Your statements are an equivalent of "shut up'. When I have something to say, I'll say it. And you nor anyone else will shut me up.

However, I see you in nearly every Meier thread bashing those who have done the work and proved their case. So maybe it best to take your own advice.

reply to post by free_spirit


free spirit said:
"It's a fact that UFOs are also entertainment and most of the people don't really care
if a case is real or not as long it is spectacular and there is no medicine for that. The
UFO phenomena is a huge industry generating millions and the people, fans and
enthusiasts are counted also by millions, they want to see clear, spectacular,
detailed and structural UFOs and if a certain case gives them what they want it
means big bussines and everybody is happy. That a reality despite so many efforts
to educate the masses. One clear example is the superpowerful Youtube converted
in the actual No. 1 promoter of fake UFO and Alien videos worldwide. But people
loves Youtube, one of the best entertainment websites in the world. "


well no, i was just stood im my backyard smoking a cigerette and noticed it in the sky. why do you think everybody WANTS to believe? does it never cross your mind there is a section of society who have seen?

nice theory and im sure a few do what you say, but you state it as fact and as though it applies to all, but it dos'nt.

some people can only judge others through their own experiences, and are unable to understand it from the other point of view. so some people who have not seen believe there is no such thing simply based on that. they fail to understand some are into u.f.o's looking for answers to sightings they experienced, it has nothing to do with enterainment or making money.

people witness them and then ask questions or look for answers, then fakers/profiteers come along and make profit of it. its no different from somebody making a profit of somebodys death by selling t-shirts of that person, mugs, trinkets etc, like princess di for example. the people themselves 'the fans' as you term them are not all blind believers. they have a credible reason to believe, not credible to you because you have no way of knowing, but credible to themselves. you could never know untill you have seen, so untill and if that occurs people who believe will remain as people playing follow the leader to you. but that dos'nt change the fact that people have and do see these things and don't believe it just because they are told to by people who see it as a marketing oppertunity.

they believe it because they saw it. which is the best type of evidence you could have. its not my fault i did'nt have a camera or nobody else was there to see it to, but to me it was the best type of evidence to convince me. thats why i believe i'm unsure where you get your stereotypical u.f.o believer from, your own experiences and opinions?

Hello Folks
Billy Mier. OK, my 2 long cents. Shhhhhhhhhhhh….What a great read eh…lots of prophetic stuff going down there eh…Real/Fake, black/white….Take a chill pill guys. Crack open a Bud sit back have a smoke, whatever you do. Just stop, relax, turn off the TV/PC/Radio and take a 15 min break. Feel the world rush below your feet just for once, its good to be alive/here….get the idea.

I do that when some-thing/one/poster really pisses me off, or…when I’m deep into an ATS thread, and my wife’s 4 sisters including mother visit and all hell breaks loose (kids go nuts because “Granny’s here with our wealthy “pocket money giving” aunties ..grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr)…

When they EVENTULLY go!!! I have a tin o Bud , a smoke, (send the little scrounging maggots to bed) and begin where I left off, usually with a much chilled out, relaxed (glad to be back) attitude.

At that precise moment of unclouded, keen clarity, I am able to see the other posters point of view, YES… sometimes, BUT not always. But I respect that person if he is showing respect himself. He deserves that gentlemanly respect without hesitation. If not then it is withheld…. respectably! Lets be Gentleman ladies ok…(sorry ex army lol)

Respect is required at all times, in all instances, of good behaviour, which is enforced by appropriated moderators, when required. Without it these boards would devolve into something of a cheap trashy soap/daytime show…

Are all the posters perfect? No. Are moderators perfect? No. Is ATS perfect????…emmm…No (but comes damn close 2nd “Tenup/salute/slug of beer/puff”), Of course nobody’s perfect. (Exception Uma Thurman/Helen Hunt )

I think this is where some of the nasty-ness comes into ATS, we get so deep into our “thing” that emotions run wild and amok. We sometimes forget, that to properly and preferably analyse something correctly, we need to take a step back and assess W.T.F. is going down. The emotions we feel/subjected to, should be discarded like secondary cigarette smoke, and move forward to further analysis and discussion. Has the Billy Meir Case had that opportunity? My findings say YES.

We are here for truth and to deny ignorance. That is paramount. Put your emotions away with your family/wedding albums and concentrate on the “Jobs at hand”. Investigate if you believe. Investigate if you feel strongly enough that you don’t believe. Leave bigotry out of the equation.

I am for in total agreement with the OP and commend him on his work/their good work at exposing fakery. There is too much of it going on, and theirs too much to lose by denying ignorance. If something/one is fake, I commend the investigators for exposing it as such. They have my highest regard of appreciation, admiration and full “go ahead” to pursue their continued investigation. UFO Fakery within Ufo-olgy is like a cancerous tumour on the brain, it needs cut out so that the brains can persist/function. The OP/moderators………

Consider them the professionals that CAN and WILL do the brain surgeons job efficiently and effectively.

The Billy Meir case is a great story, its doesn’t seem to go away, like all good stories, it may have its truths or be an utter fabrication. It’s your call.

I whole heartily agreed with one of the posters that “any evidence of ANY possible fact has been irrevocably tarnished” and invite nothing MORE than further in-depth exposure to any MORE fakery or ultimate proof.

Time will obviously tell. Be good. Be at peace.

Just my 2 cents

Kirky

-
I've found 4 misleading errors in the so called "debunking" of the BEAM case by IIG WEST.

The "fireship" UFO was never claimed to be such a thing. That alone is such a basic error that they should pay $1million to a surgeon and get a sense of humour implant.

davID, Exo UK
--

I just want to say that it's great to see a well investigated thread on this board. Don't get me wrong, the cell phone videos and personal accounts have their place in the field of UFO research as well, but it's people like you guys over at IIG and Jeff Ritzmann who actually go out and do the necessary investigations and do so from an unbiased viewpoint that will finally bring some credibility to the field.

It works both ways, you also have to prove and back up your theories, counter claims and studies with hard evidence or else it's still just "WORD vs WORD" seen from the readers perspective. Writing stories on websites does not make them true just because they are written in a critical and sceptical way. Maybe adding film interviews would make it more of a likely possibility though. This is something you should consider adding to your case studies.

PS: Remember the Earth "used" to be flat once upon a time and the people who claimed the Earth was round were ridiculed and sometimes killed. But those sceptics turned out to be wrong and have been wrong many times in history too. Sceptism is not a science, it is a belief.

Hello.

I just wanted to let you know that the IIG's examination into the Billy Meier Wedding Cake UFO has been completed and posted online. You can go directly to the Wedding Cake UFO Deconstruction Report here: www.iigwest.org...

You can view the rest of the report here: www.iigwest.org...

-Derek