Evolution Cannot be Proven

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Not to mention that evolution is not "believed in", it is an ongoing scientific discussion.

Yes and no. Today many, many, scientific articles are written with the assumption that Evolution is true. Not all, mind you, but many.

It's absurd to allow such an unsubstantiated lie to become the most popular scientific belief. I thought these guys were supposed to using science...

[edit on 18-9-2008 by the_watcher]

reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic


But that's just the thing.

Evolution has been attacking Christianity for years, but I wouldn't call this actual attack. As I've said before you can believe Evolution. It's up to you. Believe whatever you want to believe.

I'm more concerned with people making a logical choice. If you're going to make a decision you should have all the facts. So I encourage people go to out and look at the facts. Weigh the evidence and come to your own conclusion.

The facts have to be heard though. Scientists seem to think Evolution is it and no other facts are allowed to be heard. It's not right.

[edit on 18-9-2008 by the_watcher]

I KNEW there was a good reason I liked Bananas in pajamas as a kid.

Seriously though. If you really got down and dirty with scientific genetics and species evolution I think you would change your tune.

Originally posted by the_watcher
reply to post by cautiouslypessimistic

 

But that's just the thing.

Evolution has been attacking Christianity for years

What on earth are you ranting about?
A scientific concept is attacking a religious one.

You got the wrong end of the stick my friend. Throughout history religion has tried to catch up with science and try to incorporate it into its dogma so as not to look foolish. Let's start with the earth is flat thing, move on to the earth is the center of the universe and so on.
ID is but the latest attempt within this dynamic.

reply to post by jpm1602


I sincerely doubt it. I've actually been busy researching many different things, and the elegant design of all the various cells and cellular process has lead to be believe it could only have been designed by God.

Evolution cannot be the cause because in order for Evolution to work, in other words for a dinosaur to become a bird, new genetic information is required.

If I studied genetics it would only confirm that the new information cannot mutated from nothing.

It's ok SD. Our little friend is obviously baiting. And would like us to believe the world is still flat.

And that's ok. I can deal with that.

What does your research entail op? A forty dollar microscope and a bible?

[edit on 9/18/2008 by jpm1602]

reply to post by jpm1602


Yes but he's not very good at it.
He's actually making creationists look bad, which is not easy.

Like I said in my firs post, this conversation has been debated ad-nauseum especially on this existing thread www.abovetopsecret.com... and in a much more "intelligent" way.

ID in a nutshell:
The theory of intelligent design states that an omnipotent being created the universe and everything in it for reasons we cannot, and are not meant to, comprehend. There is no quantifiable evidence to support this theory, there are no hypotheses that can be proven or disproven using this theory, and it offers no predictive ability for any past, present or future events. OK, now let's move on to the theory of evolution.




[edit on 9/18/2008 by schrodingers dog]

Could not have said it better myself my friend. Some people can just not get a gosh dang thing right.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Throughout history religion has tried to catch up with science and try to incorporate it into its dogma so as not to look foolish.

That is not quite the case. Religion has never tried to catch up with science. Back when everyone thought the world was flat, that was purely observational. No one had traveled into space to look down at their home planet and maps were nothing but a joke! Have you seen the first map of the world? Laughable!

No religion is not responsible. The truth is that people simply did not know better. How could they? They could only know what they could obsreve and study. I would argue the method and tools were at fault. I also think human nature had a role to play. Why did they think monsters roamed the sea? Mostly because it was a vast unknown and humans are scared of what they are not familiar with.

Don't blame religion for scientific mistakes, even back then. Science is constantly growing. All fields are constantly discovering new things. Some of the beliefs we hold today could be wrong, not that they are, but I'm not going to rule it out.

Now you are just rambling in the rhetoric. I fault you not. You obviously feel strongly about your beliefs.

I think the range of your contemporaries would disagree. And that's ok too.

Beliefs are just that op. No one is right, no one is wrong. Because there is no conclusive evidence for backage. Only old bones and genes.

[edit on 9/18/2008 by jpm1602]

Originally posted by jpm1602
What does your research entail op? A forty dollar microscope and a bible?

No. Mostly scientific papers and articles. A little bit of Wikipedia to get started on a subject, but I try to go more in-depth as often as I can from a better, more scholarly, source.

The more I see from the scientific sources the more I understand about God's creation. It's all very fascinating. This world was designed with such precision it just amazes me.

I guess it shouldn't be so amazing since it is God we're talking about, but to have been able to put all this together in only 6 days is... well I guess I'd have to call it a mirale.

reply to post by the_watcher


Boy, if you're disputing that religion is slow to catch up with science then nothing else need be said.

Fossils! Just kidding ya. Bye.

Do not defend or attack evolutionary theory. Creationism and evolutionary theory are not contradictory. For GOD so created the world, but he only gave us a very brief description of how he chose to do so.

GOD stated that he created the world in 7 days, yes this is true. But you forget who GOD was talking to. GOD does not talk over someone’s head. GOD does not tell someone any more or less than they need to hear, for GOD is perfect.

GOD was relating the story of creation to Adam, the first human that he created. God told the story of creation to a man who did not understand physics and astronomy. GOD did not sit down with Adam, whip out a text book and start giving a speech like a college professor would. The conversation did "NOT" go like this.

GOD: “Ok Adam, uh, well first off, we have little things called strings that operate off of what we call quantum physics and, uh, are you getting this so far?”

Adam: (holding olive leaf over his privates) “GOD, uh, what’s Physics?”

GOD told Adam the story of creation in a way that he could understand. Adam slept under the stars and held a leaf over his privates at first. He had just ate from the tree of knowledge and was not grossed in the modern education that we have today. Adam knew that the sun came up and then the sun went away. Adam also knew that work had to be done during the day because that was when the sun was up and when measuring how long it took to do anything, it was appropriate to say it took “so many days”.

The ancient word for day meant many things, but first and foremost it meant a measure of time that did not necessarily meant a 24 hour period of time. A “day” was a way of telling Adam the process of creation in 7 steps more importantly than how long in measurable hours it might have taken. When GOD told Adam how many days it took for GOD to create the earth he said days so that the story of creation would create our week, not that the actual process of creation took so many hours to happen.

GOD was setting up our calendar system and using the story of creation to do it. GOD did not lie to Adam, for the word Day also meant a step in a process. To say that something took so many days was to say that it took so many steps to complete, regardless of how many hours or literal days it might have taken.

So you see, GOD related the story of creation to Adam in days so that Adam would live his life according to the calendar that GOD told him to live. He was not trying to say that the creation of the universe only toot 7 24 hour periods of time.

Evolution and creation can coexist. Science can never disprove GOD, for GOD made science as well.


[edit on 18-9-2008 by Hot_Wings]

Originally posted by the_watcher

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Really, would you please elaborate?
Some examples perhaps.

Certainly! One that is extremely obvious is found right in the story of the creation.

Genesis 1:24,25
24And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

In the very beginning God made animals that all reproduced accorind there kind. In other words God made wolves that breed wolves, lions that breed lions, and dinosaurs that breed more dinosaurs.

And that is exactly what we observe today. If you don't believe me ask an animal biologist. I assure you he/she will confirm.

There is also the account of Adam and Eve, the very first humans. Eve was to be the "mother of all life," and we all know mtDNA can trace down a Mitochondrial Eve that is only 6,500 years old.

Source:
www.answersingenesis.org...

Of course plants also reproduce after their own kind. And there is more, but I do not have the time to conduct an in-depth search at the moment.


[edit on 18-9-2008 by the_watcher]

[edit on 18-9-2008 by the_watcher]

First of all I am a Christian but I dont believe this 6000 year old earth stuff. They can prove that the earth is roughly 4 billiion years old by a variety of techniques. The universe is billions of years old or we wouldnt be able to see the light from "suns" that are billions of light years away.

I have been to the Creation Museum that the folks from Answers in Genesis run. It was a nice amusing day with my children. They even have a nice theater where you can fly through the universe and see things that are billions of light years away. There explanation was that time MAY travel at a different speed in different parts of the universe. Well lets just make up rules as we go to fit the story we are trying to sell.

Ok if there is a mitochondrial eve at 6500 years ago then how are there bones of humans from at least 15000 yrs ago, and I am being generous.

You got the answer from the Answers in Genesis people. Well if Genesis is so correct how could the earth be created before the Sun. You need the gravity of the Sun to create the orbits for the planets and this has to happen first.

Could it not be possible that Genesis says that God created animals of their own types that beget their own types because that is what humans obsevered. Its plain as day, even to a cave man.

Genesis is at best an allegory for creation and at worst just what people made up from what they observed.

In my opinion the best proof of some form of intelligent design is DNA itself. It is amazing how there are switches to turn on and off features. I personally belief that there is intelligent design and part of that design included evolution. That is a really cool God that create something that creates unlimited variations based on tiny changes.

[edit on 19-9-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

If the Bible claimed God held the planets in orbit with cosmic silly string, the Christian right would boycott gravity.

If they really held to the Bible, they'd most defiantly boycott Germ Theory, which once and for all put to bed the notion that demons cause deformities, insanity and disease.

Just as their counterparts in the Middle East cling to the same ideas through the Qu'ran, their only objections to evolution are Biblical.

They can learn about just about every other Scientific theory and accept them (and they do) as self evident once they learn about the vast amounts of evidence and research behind them, as they can approach them without prejudice.

They can't with evolution, as the prejudices against it are built in by their parents and/or other influences before they learn a thing.




Very few creationists seem to get that the Christian creation myth is one of hundreds of creation myths, all on an equal par in terms of evidence, all bolstered by nothing but faith.

It's not 'Evolution or the Christian creation myth is right'

You've still got all the other creation myths to fight with for supremacy, and some of them are far more entertaining.

If you say, 'well we adhere to the Christian creation myth as this is a Christian country'

Then you are admitting it has nothing to do with fact, but cultural sensibilities, which by any reasonable persons standards have no place being taught along side facts in the classroom.


[edit on 19-9-2008 by kegs]

And where exactly in the Bible does it say the earth was created 6000 years ago. I guess maybe people get there by the geneology in the Bible. My kids go to a Christian school and they teach them that the earth is 6000 years old. Then when they get home I teach them that some people believe the earth is 4 billion years old. That way they can come to their own conclusion when they get old enough.

Ok along the lines of evolution... why do most "liberals" believe in evolution but they are for helping people who make bad life choices. Wouldnt that be bad for our species, kind of a De-Evolution. I have just always been curious about that. At our house we kind of live by natural selection. I dont make my kids wear helmets when they ride their bikes. I just tell them that if they cant ride a bike without killing themselves maybe their genes shouldnt pass on to future generations.

[edit on 19-9-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

Look, what too many creationists don't seem to realize is EVOLUTION AND GOD ARE NOT EXCLUSIVE OF EACH OTHER. You CAN have God and evolution. Evolution is just one of many natural processes similar to the water cycle and the nitrogen cycle of decay. In case you did not notice, the great book never speaks of these cycles. It also never speaks of tectonic plates or weather fronts or medical science. In fact, when the Bible makes reference to things like floods, earthquakes, or illnesses it is usually in the context of God's wrath. However, you do not hear hard core Christians attack the sciences of medicine, meteorology, or seismology. To do so would put us back at least a thousand years and would seal Christianity's fate as a bunch of loons too wrapped up in scripture to "see the forest for the trees." So why is evolution any different?

The fact is, I do not "believe" there is a God, I KNOW THERE IS A GOD. Ironically, it is through my understanding of science that this knowledge is rooted. Our universe is full of a countless number of scientific "laws" of which without, the universe would not exist. Essentially, these laws did not manifest themselves, someone had to write or create them. This someone, is God. One of these laws created by God, is the law of evolution. It is this law that makes all life possible and sustainable. Michael Land said "When you deny evolution, you are running the risk of denying one of the most beautiful aspects of God's grand design." Imagine, a plan so great, so immense, so profound that all you need are the building blocks of life, a little electricity, and a really, really long time, and you are able to create the enormous multitude of life on this planet and possibly millions, if not billions, of other planets. To deny this, IMHO, could be considered a truly great insult to the creator.

My advice to the vast majority of Christians, I myself am one by the way, would be to embrace the idea of evolution and to incorporate it into your belief structure.

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
Ok along the lines of evolution... why do most "liberals" believe in evolution but they are for helping people who make bad life choices. Wouldnt that be bad for our species, kind of a De-Evolution. I have just always been curious about that. At our house we kind of live by natural selection. I dont make my kids wear helmets when they ride their bikes. I just tell them that if they cant ride a bike without killing themselves maybe their genes shouldnt pass on to future generations.

[edit on 19-9-2008 by justsomeboreddude]

Here's a crazy idea... I know it's radical, but hear me out..


Why don't you find out what Science actually says instead of relying on creationist propaganda?

I know it's a radical idea, but give it a shot, you never know!

Whisper it, but you might actually learn something!

I assume liberals are for helping people who made bad life choices because they have compassion, you know that stupid thing that makes you an actual human being and not a monster. The op doesn't really think evolution can't be proven right, and this is just a devils advocate type of situation or am i wrong? If I'm wrong then there are literally thousands of experiments and reproducible scientific tests you could participate or visualize to prove it is in fact happening and true.