The Crash of Western Capitalist Civilization?

The Crash of Western Capitalist Civilization?

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Once economic growth stops, as has now happened, and all the bubbles to restart it have blown up, as has also happened, the end really is nigh. Especially if the host—the U.S.—is bankrupt. What is coming at us today isn’t just another downturn. If people like McCain adviser Donald Luskin doubt it, maybe, instead of writing campaign propaganda, they should ask the fired CEOs of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the stockholders of Lehman Brothers, whose shares have dropped ninety percent in less than a year, and the millions who are losing their homes.

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A slash and burn policy that has left a charred landscape in its wake. Exploit cheap labor and when their standard of living raises, pull out and leave them jobless. Rinse and repeat. Start a war and then invest in the companies that provide the tools to wage it. This process can only go on for so long.
Its almost time to 'liberate' the people of Africa and spread democracy.

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So what will takeover capitalism?

Lehman's collapse = rebirth of capitalism!!

Intervention by the Fed would have been socialist/ communist. By allowing Lehman to fail, they have reaffirmed the capitalist notion that banks should get what they deserve, and if they mess up then they should pay for it.

See the Japanese and Hong Kong financial crisis - this is what will happen to the Western system. Low growth and low inflation will be the problem from 2009-2010.

Commodities are selling off rapidly, deflation will become the problem soon. This is not the death of capitalism, end of the world, second great depression or introduction of corporate fascism.

We never encountered this problem during the Asian financial crisis and our banks never learned.

Deflation - Japan

reply to post by 44soulslayer


I agree. They should not have bailed out F&F but with that said these companies should not be allowed to take on this much debt. We should not have a handful of companies carrying all the mortgage debt. Deregulation allowed for these companies to take on bad debt and greed motivated them to do it.

Guess who pays the price in the end. At least if all these companies were allowed to fail, it would have taught a lesson to other companies who practice this type of business. Bailing them out is a bad message to send.

Whether they are bought out or they fail, the American public pays for it. Buyouts justifiy the behavior that lead to the buyout, letting them fail teaches them and sends a message to other banks that they will not be helped if they use poor business practices.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
I agree. They should not have bailed out F&F but with that said these companies should not be allowed to take on this much debt.

I.O.U's is why Fanny and Freddie was nationalised.
Foreign central banks, especially from Asia and Europe, demanded the US to protect their holdings in those two institutions. If the United States treasury refused, a fire sale of American assets would have occurred from central banks.

In other words, you had no choice.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by infinite]

reply to post by infinite


I believe the quote used by the Administration was "they are too big to fail". Correct me if I'm wrong but that is basically what you are saying. Now my concern is not where we are at but how did we get here and what can be done to prevent it from happening again.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Hello is anyone home in here or do I have to ring a bell or something???
We had a GREAT DEPRESSION.
The DJI stopped trading where it once started at!
We survived that.
You can not get any worse than that!
Short of global nuclear war or other extinction level event's.
We can never get any worse than the Great Depression.
So why worry about this?
Its just another day on the street.
Be careful selling your stocks as our deceitful contrarian buddies are looking to buy them off you.
Just like Nathan Rothschild during the Napoleonic wars.
It only takes some false rumors or over hyped news for these guys to own whole economy's.

Originally posted by Interestinggg
Hello is anyone home in here or do I have to ring a bell or something???
We had a GREAT DEPRESSION.
The DJI stopped trading where it once started at!
We survived that.
You can not get any worse than that!
Short of global nuclear war or other extinction level event's.
We can never get any worse than the Great Depression.
So why worry about this?
Its just another day on the street.
Be careful selling your stocks as our deceitful contrarian buddies are looking to buy them off you.
Just like Nathan Rothschild during the Napoleonic wars.
It only takes some false rumors or over hyped news for these guys to own whole economy's.

Just because we survived the great depression does not mean that it wasnt a horrible time for most American families. And when you say 'we' you mean people who are no longer alive to tell you just how awful it was. Those still living who did live through it were quite young, not many alive who were older than maybe 15 at the time.

You may not want to worry about this but during the depression, many starved. And you just dont know what levels this event will get to. What makes you so sure it will never be worse than the GD?

We live in a global economy now and the ripples go out further and also come back again. Nikkei got slammed today because their markets were closed on Monday. They felt our ripple and we will feel theirs. Everyone on wall street will be waiting for news on AIG. A lot hinges on their fate, if they dont get a buyout and they fail, hold on because it will get silly.

"What makes you so sure it will never be worse than the GD?"
Dude Please....
Read my post.
Don't get so emotional.
Many people starve all OVER THE WHOLE WORLD EVERYDAY!
Even during economic BOOM!
My Grandad was 8 when the Depression hit.
He never even had shoes until he was 13.
Right now he really couldnt care less about it.
My son is 8 now.And he wrecks his shoes.
How we take things for granted.

Okay so what does this mean in layman's terms.... Speaking to those who know little or nothing about international finance.

Someone spell it out.

Originally posted by '___'eed
So what will takeover capitalism?

More Correctly,
what will take the place of American capitalism ?


my limited vision would say a regulated and central planners system of limited capitalism ... like we see today in Communist China


the process is underway, as we see in the current banking/credit/finance infrastructure 'consolidation' .... as a smaller number of bank & finance institutions, with fewer broker personnel, will be needed for the tighter control & regulation of markets in the near future.


perhaps the US Treasury will (have to) share power with the Federal Reserve in the next administration...

We are already in the beginning stages of something that will make the "great depression" look like a sunny walk in the park. Interesting that John Titor said "By 2008, everyone will recognize that the life they thought they were living was over" (Please, do not bring up what he was or wasn't. I just thought it an apropo quote.)

MOST people I talk to now are saying the same thing.

This is a return to capitalism, the failure of Lehman is a good thing, and it will help crush the corporatism that has existed for the past 20 years.

The end is not nigh.

The economy hasn't even officially entered a recession, but some individuals strangely think this is 1929 As I said before, research the Asian finanical crisis of the 1990s - we are currently going through the same situation.

reply to post by Interestinggg


My Grandfather survived the Great Depression by eating stray animals when that was all that was left. He isn't proud of it.

He went on to become an MD and help as many people as he could. He took payments in services, chickens, vegetables, whatever people could trade for medical treatment. If they didn't have anything, he treated them for free.

He has lost 30% of all of his assets this year. The thought of him having to face another financial crisis makes me so mad.

So yeah, the U.S. survived it but it wasn't pretty. And evidently the Banksters didn't learn a thing.

Originally posted by infinite
The end is not nigh.

The economy hasn't even officially entered a recession, but some individuals strangely think this is 1929

As I said before, research the Asian finanical crisis of the 1990s - we are currently going through the same situation.

Starred, most people don't even know how the Great Depression was started and are already calling this worse...it's rather humorous. There are many similarities, but there are also many differences that set it apart. It would take a huge policy mistake to drive us into depression, and considering what we learned from the Great Depression and currently have a scholar of The Great Depression sitting at the head of the Federal Reserve...it's highly unlikely.

couldnt all this just be a setup to introduce the American union and the Amero ???

just wondering?

I don't understand. I can't keep myself from resisting the notion that "the bankers didn't learn' because I fail to see in what way they are suffering. They are multi-millionaires and billionaires. They suffer no consequences other than to their image and ego.

None of these people, I am referring to those instrumental in the wealth shift, ever have to work a day in their lives. Frankly, most never have, and never will. They sit and plan and play, figuring out how to acquire more wealth. That's it. These aren't public servants who have a stake in their future employment, and we KNOW that they have iron clad bail out options available to them.

This doesn't seem a lesson learned, this seems like a scam that was rushed to it's completion. Where did the money go? Where is it? Who has it? Was there ever any 'money' at all? I see all the all the billions being referenced, yet, billions of what, numbers on a spreadsheet? SOMEONE is getting obscenely wealthy, and quickly, yet no one seems to know who that is.

EDIT TO ADD:

Calling the end of western civilization seems over-the-top. We will survive this because we have no choice..., but that is another matter entirely.

[edit on 16-9-2008 by Maxmars]