Truth is Buried at ATS... Anyone Digging?

I left ATS over a year ago because there is too much content and no ability to search it. I understand SO's explanation as given in a recent similar post (that Google is enough), but I have come to believe that ATS is not 100% pure in regards to pursuit of truth.

How many threads can you have? I mean God almighty! Isn't it irritating to be searching for truth and to have to click on page 12 only to scroll through total morons and find that one poster on ATS who is worth listening to? And to have to waste time doing all your own work in that regard because there's always so much rhetoric and yelling back and forth? This whole format BLOWS, and although there are a lot of good people here who are trying hard, I just got tired of it.


FACT: Where there are three or more, the worm will bore.

What this fact means is that in any group of persons, there is always one who is aligned toward the DIScohesion of the general consensus. In direct contrast to the general human desire to integrate and synthesize --that is to say, to hear others viewpoints and arrive at a larger, greater truth... These discohesive deconstructionist persons (who are pervasive and ever present) will seek to "delphi" the discussion and will seek to apply a dialectic to the group. A dialectic is a legal framing wherein the idea is broken down into two competing components, which componenents are futher broken down, etc. This is the discohesion present in today's two-party political system and it is by design, to apply Hegel's "Solution" to every problem. First there must be the splitting (CHAOS), then there must be the reforming (ORDO)

The worm is the Hegelian, the opposing force is the Wesleyan or cohesive spirit.

wiki/Dialectic
wiki/Hegel
wiki/John_Wesley

Your whole existence as a human and everything you hear said idealistically essentially comes down to that: Hegel versus Wesley and it shows itself in any group discussion, particularly. I am speaking of course in the larger context of today's Christianized World. On the other half of the Mosaic slice it's the "calm mulla" versus the "rabid mullah", but still the same psychological forces and modalities at work.



Having stated the above, I can then say that ATS is far more Hegelian, than Wesleyan. And why not, as Google doesn't reward a synthesis of web pages. No there must be endless talk. Endless posts.

Are there spouses who hate ATS because their loved one is always on here, getting TEASED with the truth? What if there was a post which ended all posts? What truth would that "post" contain? ...If the Federalist Papers were published here on ATS, who could frikkin read them and wouldn't they surely sink to the bottom, drowned by "me too" posts and so on, as encouraged by this place?

Skeptic, why don't you build a simple poll the users for anyone who can code this BBS software you run and have them build a better engine for truth-finding? How about a graphic which says "HELP US WRITE A NON-GOOGLE SEARCH ENGINE" --Or better yet, why not keep up the current direction and team up with Google Chrome, the worst privacy hating tool to ever come along? Hell yeah, ATS through Google Chrome! Uncle Aldous would be proud!

You know what? I know it's in bad taste to bounce one's own posts but I am going to start bouncing a few of my oldies because all I see is DIS cohesion when what we need from ATS is COHESION and reduction of groups! ATS has expanded waaaaay beyond anything Rozell or Stern could imagine. But my point is that I have contributed a particularly salient and rich portion of truth to ATS and as a member of this creative community (at least until they delete my account) I wish it could be searched better so I'll tack on an update to a few of them.

It's a for profit group, ATS, and it's cool and very open, but it only takes a little leaven to ferment the whole lump. I'd rather have truth than Google adwords. What website will rise in pursuit of truth henceforth? Won't they simplify and synthesize the facts of history? Or are we instead going to pursue the dialectic endlessly, without any ability to see it in context? Endless posts, endless groups, then podcasts for truth and what next?

smallpeeps

Errm not quite sure what to say to that as I have only been here for a few days. Guess the above goes for any group of people all working for the same course.

Anyways, hope you feel better and nice to have you errmm back

reply to post by smallpeeps

And to have to waste time doing all your own work in that regard because there's always so much rhetoric and yelling back and forth?

So you are saying that you want someone else to do all the work for you? How about taking some pride in your own work. Yes, the truth is here, but nobody is going to had it to you.

Originally posted by sensfan
So you are saying that you want someone else to do all the work for you? How about taking some pride in your own work. Yes, the truth is here, but nobody is going to had it to you.

No, I am not looking for truth on ATS though I believe the facts are available. What I am saying is that if you are not actively acting as an integrator (and simplifying the arguments, for example, that the Bush family is involved in the Drug Trade, an incontrovertable fact which has been recorded by many) then you are serving the Powers that Be. And if you are serving the Powers that Be (I mean Google and other ethically dead corporate corpses), then you are not seeking truth. Hey, what do I care if I contribute to ATS (hundreds of posts I have contributed) and its just another tool of the elite like Wikipedia. I can still glean info from it, though truth is not its flag. But in such case, I'll be glad to hold their feet over the fire, cause I paid at least a nickle into this coffer.

There's a thread recently where theRiverGoddess complains directly and specifically about the search function on ATS, in detail. TRG has been a great ATS member for years now, but I haven't posted her complaint here because A: It's obvious, and B: The people in charge should be paying attention to her already (maybe she got a U2U?).

Hey, peace. I mean that. I like the sandbox. But as a contributing member, and since they can publish my words, I am entitled to mention the obvious.

You know ATS could use an upgrade

I am currently working on my own site (doesn't mean i'll be leaving ats.. I have friends here)

But my site includes, permanent sections for things that I deem relevant enough for permanent links, a complete myspace style social network, and a bridge directly into secondlife where people will be able to explore virtual exhibits and meet each other in a more social environment than this type of forum allows for

Of course for google and ads there will be a traditional forum... but i'm thinking being relevant years in advance because obviously it will take years to grow...

The original text based only forum style is starting to indeed be a bit dated

Originally posted by smallpeeps
I left ATS over a year ago because there is too much content and no ability to search it. I understand SO's explanation as given in a recent similar post (that Google is enough), but I have come to believe that ATS is not 100% pure in regards to pursuit of truth.

How many threads can you have? I mean God almighty! Isn't it irritating to be searching for truth and to have to click on page 12 only to scroll through total morons and find that one poster on ATS who is worth listening to? And to have to waste time doing all your own work in that regard because there's always so much rhetoric and yelling back and forth? This whole format BLOWS, and although there are a lot of good people here who are trying hard, I just got tired of it.

Very good point. I have suggested this to the SO and crew, and hopefully they see why the idea to have the members classify all the posts by voting
in accordance to best answer for, best answer against, most confusing answer, funniest answer, etc makes perfect sense.

Members would only be able to vote one time for each category, so it would encourage people who wanted to contribute to read through the entire thread, and definitely cut down on bad replies.

It would also ensure the best answers are cateloged, and then we as viewers could choose which order we wished to view. The best answers for or against would be listed first in order of popular vote in descending order.

Wow just a few measly posts and this thread has turned south already. OP I think you lost them after the first few sentences.

Welcome to Thread Killers Anonymous...

reply to post by smallpeeps



What would also be the way to ensure very good threads don't get buried is also vote for threads that the majority feels are very important. the best ones would get the most votes, moving up in importance, with silly ones going to the bottom of the pile.

Another very good thing would be to let viewers choose whether or not to view the all time best in order, or the newly posted threads, that way we could brush up on all of the newest info without having the best of get in the way for those who have already read through them.

I know it's obvious, but I must try to elicit better order to the world.

Doh! Does that make me a New World Order flunky?

Well I wanted to talk more about deflection, not solutions, cause we can see how this thread will go into "Board Issues" or the chit-chat or whatever.

What I'm saying is that there are two ways a BBS can be (yes I'm using the old skool term there) and that is divisive or cohesive, and anyone who says certain truths are not coming into focus, is crazy. I am saying that the voices at ATS (not podcasts, mind you) should be helping people learn more of the basic facts about history.

Like for example, a while back I posted a thread about forbidden books, and I had quite a few replies, but then, the thread just stopped getting any posts, and I think any discussion group should have a list like that. A list of forbidden texts and maybe even Mod-authored cliff Notes to the now-revealing truth of history. What I am saying is that HISTORY comes into focus as time passes (we now learn that mengele COULD have been captured, for example) and any web-destination that aims to gather the sheep of the web, must treat them kindly, and while I do see that happening here in the form of Mods who help the new users (which has always been an ATS trademark, kindness to new folks) but I do not see them being helped to understand where the main vein of truth lies.

Many good posts sounds so crazy that they just get the losers on ATS who post irrelevant chat-room type drivel, and then sink away forever. Who is dredging the bottom of ATS, and what if a Moderator right next to them is totally and fully opposed to their work? If Mods versus Mods is the way it is, then so be it, but there needs to be a better way to represent the data on ATS, is all I'm saying. I took a long break from it, and am bemused as I watch it grow.

When I think about that idea of balanced management and having Mods of different and diametrically opposed viewpoints on the same team, I think of that scripture which says "If you were hot or cold I would like you, but since you are lukewarm I will spit you out."

Why can't ATS have its data in wikipedic format where the reader can draw their own conclusions without wading through tons of messages? Probably somebody's already working on this and I should just shut up.

Originally posted by smallpeeps

Why can't ATS have its data in wikipedic format where the reader can draw their own conclusions without wading through tons of messages? Probably somebody's already working on this and I should just shut up.

Ask and ye shall receive...

TinWiki

I so enjoy your posts. You have also reminded me to utilize this source more. It needs to continue to grow....

peace

[edit on 17-9-2008 by DancedWithWolves]

I just thought of another way to keep ATS a hip & happening site.

Allow us to vote a thread down or up for the day. I write this in reply to the thread started under Aliens & UFOs asking for identification of an easily recognized ultrlight aircraft. This is the type of thread we as members should be allowed to relegate to the bottom of the days posts.

reply to post by smallpeeps


Remember every lie is based on a truth and words are very deceptive. Try approaching it from the opposite angle, it may work for you.

Thing is, it's easy to think of other people as 'idiots' when you have allready made up your own mind about a subject, and are not looking for thruth per sé, but affirmation of your own viewpoints.

It is a mistake I also commonly make (but try hard to avoid, at least)

put 3 people in a room, and have them all formulate their own thoughts about any controversial topic, chances are you'll get 3 different opinions.

put 30 people in said room, and those 3 'initial' theorys will get supported or denounced, but also in division, never a uniform reaction, with maybe 1 or 2 'original' takes on the matter.

put 3000 people in said room and you'll be spending days to even sort through all the arguments, and guess what, at least 2000 of them will come across to you as being 'idiots', because you, too, will have formulated your own opinion based on your personal beliefs and research (or lack there-off) [not aimed at you, this is just a generalization]

Personally, this sifting through the manure to get at the pearls is fascinating to me.. I can understand how it would be enough to put people off real quick though..

And finally, I do not expect to find 'the thruth, the whole thruth and nothing but the thruth' here, or from any other source for that matter.

If you are a religious person, you can look forward to God answering those questions when you died and went to heaven, or paradise, or Shangri-la or whatever.. myself, I have to face up to living in a world of lies, deception and half thruths, with maybe, just maybe, a reincarnation at the end, and beginning of it..

at least we try.. it is human nature to want to know the thruth, but it is human limitations which prevents this from ever occuring, as well

[edit on 19-9-2008 by Phatcat]

Originally posted by Phatcat
Thing is, it's easy to think of other people as 'idiots' when you have allready made up your own mind about a subject, and are not looking for thruth per sé, but affirmation of your own viewpoints.

Which I am not doing, thanks.

put 3 people in a room, and have them all formulate their own thoughts about any controversial topic, chances are you'll get 3 different opinions.

Please research the Delphi Method. If you don't know that groups are controlled by opinion makers, then you've not grasped the whole of the picture I am describing, in the first post of this thread. As for me seeking "my own truth", that's the language THEY use, because in FACT, truth exists --OH YES you may know believe that it does, but it does exist. See, if a tree falls in the forest, the main question is, how many conflicting reports will there be? Because surely there is one truth: That a tree of a particular kind, DID fall in the forest. Don't try to tell yourself truth only exists in your head.

Here is a recent example of what I am talking about:



...Is it really so hard to understand that any profound, amazing post in any thread on ATS, is completely BURY-ABLE by the techniques I am describing here?

My question is this: Who is digging through the crap? I know there are hard working volunteer unpaid ATS folks who have served to consolidate information and yes, the result is yet another thread, but with a bunch of links to other threads --Sheesh! I mean really, with all this data and information, there has to be a better way for the information to be presented.

Like I said, I spent a couple years posting my butt off and then I left. I'm already getting sick of it again, but I wanted to describe this sickness I am feeling so that anyone who feels the same way can at least hear my point. ALSO I am very skilled with web work and so on, and I know it ain't hard, except for the workload --which ATS creates by encouraging posting-for-points and other schemes that lead to empty posts.

I feel like ATS encourages people to have a place to belong, rather than to serve as a beacon of light/truth in these dark times. Maybe that's all it will ever be, a fun club to feel good about --and then eventually leave when you realize nothing's getting anywhere, or just dissonate cognitively and forget about truth cause it feels so good to be here, part of the club. Probably I'll just post a bit then leave again, next time for good. Or maybe I'll go look at "TinWiki" even though as long as "threads, threads, threads!" is the mantra of ATS, I don't see much changing. Every time I post, I think to myself, "Someday after all the dust clears, this might get read."

Originally posted by smallpeeps
any web-destination that aims to gather the sheep of the web, must treat them kindly, and while I do see that happening here in the form of Mods who help the new users (which has always been an ATS trademark, kindness to new folks) but I do not see them being helped to understand where the main vein of truth lies.

Many good posts sounds so crazy that they just get the losers on ATS who post irrelevant chat-room type drivel, and then sink away forever. Who is dredging the bottom of ATS

You got me thinking the other day with this post. Which got me thinking about something else I had read...which led to something else I had read once...so basically I am back here to share where your post took me. If you aren't confused now....just wait...it's coming.

A Theory: Information Swarm
Here we are the human herd.

Most Forums, in fact most human constructs, operate and look like this….
Someone’s in charge and telling us where to go, what to do, how to behave….


So you raised the question of is there a better construct?

What happens if we want to take back control?


Is there a better way to organize?


Would this be disaster or a better design?


So you come to a place like ATS and there are a lot of ideas and information swimming around.


You look at all the ideas and information like this in a linear format, one thought after another.


And you ask yourself, “Is this as good as it can get?” Is this the best way to transmit information and ideas? Is there a better way? Is there a more natural theory which could change the way information is shared?



So I ended up thinking about this article that I read once:

The Genius of Swarms
A single ant or bee isn't smart, but their colonies are. The study of swarm intelligence is providing insights that can help humans manage complex systems…

Swarm Intelligence

How do we explain, then, the success of Earth's 12,000 or so known ant species? They must have learned something in 140 million years.
"Ants aren't smart," Gordon says. "Ant colonies are." A colony can solve problems unthinkable for individual ants, such as finding the shortest path to the best food source, allocating workers to different tasks, or defending a territory from neighbors. As individuals, ants might be tiny dummies, but as colonies they respond quickly and effectively to their environment. They do it with something called swarm intelligence.
Where this intelligence comes from raises a fundamental question in nature: How do the simple actions of individuals add up to the complex behavior of a group? How do hundreds of honeybees make a critical decision about their hive if many of them disagree? What enables a school of herring to coordinate its movements so precisely it can change direction in a flash, like a single, silvery organism? The collective abilities of such animals—none of which grasps the big picture, but each of which contributes to the group's success—seem miraculous even to the biologists who know them best.

If you will indulge this line of thinking just a bit longer I will try to make some kind of point.

One key to an ant colony, for example, is that no one's in charge. No generals command ant warriors. No managers boss ant workers. The queen plays no role except to lay eggs. Even with half a million ants, a colony functions just fine with no management at all—at least none that we would recognize. It relies instead upon countless interactions between individual ants, each of which is following simple rules of thumb. Scientists describe such a system as self-organizing.

So you ask yourself, would it possible to create a better forum on mathematical algorithms following swarm behavior? Yes, I believe it might.
Would these models create a linear line of communication filled with those who agree and disagree? No.
Is there a better way to crystallize or structure the flow of ideas and information?

Can we learn from swarm intelligence and self-organizing structures to not only better share our information BUT to also cause a more desired outcome? Can information as an intangible create a tangible result and effect change in our world?
I theorize, if we remember how to swarm, it can.
Imagine a thread only it is not a thread. A post begins. A post follows. That post generates three new threads tracking three separate ideas and in three different direction. The ideas begin to literally crystallize out from the specific post that spawned them. What if color or light could point the direction to the most heavily followed direction allowing that offshoot to further crystallize and increasingly swarm.
What if we could build bridges between the arms of threads that show where people who followed this direction also went in these other four direction to threads which would also be of interest to you. What if our browsing could create a swarm trail.
What if this concept didn’t only apply to a forum but to the way human society itself structured our information flow. What if all the web searches, web blogging, forum posting and information sharing could put the collective back in control of the actions we take. What if what we did with information…really did cause changes to occur? What if we could make information itself a tangible cause through consensus activity, which in turn creates a desired affect or outcome?

to be continued...

Here’s where technology comes in. Remember the ant colony? One ant alone can’t lead or support a colony. But look at what they collectively accomplish. How do they do this?

When one ant bumps into another, it sniffs with its antennae to find out if the other belongs to the same nest and where it has been working. (Ants that work outside the nest smell different from those that stay inside.) Before they leave the nest each day, foragers normally wait for early morning patrollers to return. As patrollers enter the nest, they touch antennae briefly with foragers.

"When a forager has contact with a patroller, it's a stimulus for the forager to go out," Gordon says. "But the forager needs several contacts no more than ten seconds apart before it will go out."

So we learned this:

A forager won't come back until it finds something," Gordon says. "The less food there is, the longer it takes the forager to find it and get back. The more food there is, the faster it comes back. So nobody's deciding whether it's a good day to forage. The collective is, but no particular ant is."

I know. We aren’t ants. We aren’t sheep or birds or fish. What does it have to do with us?

Right now most forums are established in linear communication models. An idea starts at the top and good ideas after not so good ideas follow. We, like ants, can see the popularity of a thread to help us gage the lucrative benefits of any given destination on the site. What we are lacking is the third dimensional aspects of communicating information. What we stop is the clustering or swarming of the collective around good trains of thought within the thread. The nuggets of gold are buried as you suggested. We have the beginnings of a system. We star posts we consider good trains of thought, but the crystallization of the idea isn’t allowed to freely form it’s own chain from there. It is restricted by the linear nature of the thread itself.

What if a forum thread looked more like a crystal and ideas and thoughts were allowed to shift naturally away from or towards ideas?

Points for sub-threads could be awarded. These bridges would also work between posters of like mind. Their partipation would lead to increased recognition of their similar behavior and they would be notified in increasing increments with visual signals of common interests within the display.

Just a thought.

Originally posted by DancedWithWolvesWhat if a forum thread looked more like a crystal and ideas and thoughts were allowed to shift naturally away from or towards ideas?

Points for sub-threads could be awarded. These bridges would also work between posters of like mind. Their partipation would lead to increased recognition of their similar behavior and they would be notified in increasing increments with visual signals of common interests within the display.

Just a thought.

Great ideas, of course. Transparency in regards to the thread model would work, but it would require something other than this BBCode message board software ATS runs. It'll require a new technology like mash-ups or some graphical wizardy, but if ATS cannot create that new format, then I guess we gotta wait.

Your post is well concieved and even better, you are suggesting what might be done, which ATS leadership likes better than me, just complaining. Nice work DancedWithWolves. You are on the right track.

ATS exists as a sort of boxing ring, and the admins are sitting on each corner post saying "Hey, we aren't going to wrangle the Bush Haters OR the Bush Lovers" ...But it is an established fact that Nazi sheep will bleat and follow the shephard off any cliff. Now that I think about it, what we need are better shepherds who make better paths.

We can still have the Bush-lovers and they can insist Prescott Bush and his brood are true patriots and of high moral character --it just won't be paid much attention to.


And I haven't really mentioned that the truths of our world pivot on the hinge of drugs, and sex --Two subjects which when discussed at ATS, are highly moderated and repressed --for the kiddies, of course. But really, how is this prudish spirit helping "protect" the kids when their parents need a true understanding if the world, in order to provide a better future for their kids --or any kids?

Maybe I'll post a thread on Psychedlic Mushrooms and how they've been controlled and surpressed throughout history while elites have known about them all along? --As long as I don't tell you how to grow them or how many ounces to eat, it might be okay. Or maybe I can post a thread about how massive amount of widespread and organized cunningilus could save the world (personally that is one of my deeply held beliefs) --probably that'd be okay too, so long as I do not describe my techniques. ...But whatever I do post, I am sure it will will disappear to the bottom of ATS unless some special indominitable soul happens to remember it.

Anyway, I am rambling, but your post was excellent.

I have made several other posts regarding what I believe is a concerted internet wide effort to dilute and obsfucate vital, relevant and genuine news and information combined with further efforts to direct, influence and frame responses, editorial comment, questions and opinions.

How have I gauged this over the last 3-5 weeks?

Well I come to ATS because if something was happening anywhere in the world, I could be pretty sure ATS members had already seen it coming, provided context and back story usually from a variety of relevant perspectives and kept up to date as scenarios unfolded. Furthermore ATS members would also usually provide links and connections between newer events or discussions with other or older theories or ongoing developments, which I found very valuable.

ATS members could be relied upon to analyse new information or theories, see how they fitted or connected with other ideas and paradigms and impartially either slot them into the concept where it made logical sense, leave them out if fallacies occured by including them, wait for more information if required or bump them to a better suited thread. Particularly valuable is the international, multi-disciplinary and multi-generational membership to provide commentary and reference.

However recently I have been coming across information, articles and stories on the internet that I have not seen on ATS first or around the same time. In fact some of the stuff coming up at the moment like youtube censorship, media blackout of IKE, ongoiong hubris over the economy, Iran, politics, corruption etc etc have been found from other sources and I have noticed that I was sometimes surprised at the lack of discussion or focus coming from ATS. If anyone else has any thoughts about this, please let me know as I am primarily in the realm of gut instinct with this idea but this thread made me think further about it.

Originally posted by primamateria
However recently I have been coming across information, articles and stories on the internet that I have not seen on ATS first or around the same time. In fact some of the stuff coming up at the moment like youtube censorship, media blackout of IKE, ongoiong hubris over the economy, Iran, politics, corruption etc etc have been found from other sources and I have noticed that I was sometimes surprised at the lack of discussion or focus coming from ATS.

Thanks for your input, and I agree.

Even as I resisted posting at ATS for the last year or so, I did occasionally look at times of 'breaking news' and yes, there is some discussion, but again, it's the format and the click-through Googlescape type web that makes ATS what it is. I do feel for SO and Springer and I like these guys, but there are better ways to do things on the web now than this format, and if they do get funding for a TV show or whatever, use it to filter the data, is all I'm saying.

I really do believe the NBA should be contracted by at least four teams. Similarly, ATS could benefit from something like that now that the past few years of expansion have run their course. Contracting after expanding can actually be a process which results in a refined product. I do like the idea of a podcast which is regular and which is designed along the lines I am describing wherein listeners can get to the information more quickly. Like as strange as I thought the whole Dave Rabbit thing was at first, I feel like this guy might be one of the reall champions of truth at ATS and perhaps somehow the podcast can be taken to a whole new level by the ATS powers. I have been thinking about putting my voice on the web (my voice is as good as my brain) but I really don't feel like ATS is the place, frankly. I don't like Google.

I feel like ATS is a rented space at the swap-meet (using other people's message board framework) rather than a site of its own. Wikipedia took a new format and made it theirs, whereas ATS has yet to evolve in that way. But still, Wiki has its own major issues also. I have to say that during the past year I have spent even more time on Wikipedia. I posted a couple corrections and was amazed at the power and energy which is spent over there enforcing their policy that "Wikipedia has nothing to do with truth" --Some rights-enabled dude over there told me that. He said Wikipedia is ONLY about verified work by degreed or published people. --But in relation to your point, I find that some of the best truth is in the Wikipedia:TALK pages. I truly wish ATS had a format like that, or if it does, I need to handheld on how to find it.


I ask you (and everyone including the dorks at Wikipedia) honestly: Is anyone on Earth using the latest technology to burn down the forest of lies of the last 2000 years and allow us to see the tiger which has been feasting on humanity prior to the age of free'd slaves and worker's rights? I'm talking about the 1700 years + of SERFDOM which preceded America. Is there anyone out there who can master the latest web-tech and give the people of Earth a forum for sheer, outrageous and crazy TRUTH like has never been heard before?

I am posting this at a time of great crisis in America. If this right here, is all ATS ever will be, I will admit its been the best place so far to learn about truth. I really do appreciate that it exists and it holds the thoughts of myself and many other excellent people. Even if SO just drops the servers into a time capsule one day or launches the hard drives into space, I'll still be glad I was here. As long as the data is preserved here at ATS (which is paramount) then I will not lose hope.