Freemasons Too Exposed?

Right...to a majority of those reading this will know i have posted this reply/thought on other threads about freemasonry.
Basically i myself,think that Freemasonry in its self is a bit too exposed(maybe a strong use of word)I mean isn't it called a 'Secret Society' if so this is a fairly bad kept secret.Which makes me think are they doing this purposely to fool you into believing the way they work,when really their doing this to hide what they're really doing.
I would be really interested to hear what you think and if you agree or disagree.
N3RDz

[edit on 13-9-2008 by N3RDz]

[edit on 13-9-2008 by N3RDz]

I am fully convinced that the "outer party" thinks Freemasonry is a good, honest, warm, fuzzy organization. I am also convinced that there is an "inner party" that is very much different from the "outer party."

And yes. They want people to see the "outer perty" and think, Well, gee. They're not so bad!

View my debate on this here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

The reasoning behind this sort of theory doesn't make any sense. Its the sort of thing, if you were paranoid, you could claim about any group in existence because its general enough that there is no way to prove it or to give it context. Here is an example of this sort of thinking in action:

I bet you that ATS is really two groups, one being the normal and everyday members that make for interesting discussions - the other being reptilian Illuminati. The everyday members are here to put up a front by making ATS seem accessible, when in reality they are serving evil Illuminati overlords.

This is the exact same logic that was used by the OP. There is as little evidence or reason to believe the OP as there is the above statement. Furthermore, the reasoning is structured such that any evidence I provide to the contrary can be dismissed with "well, you don't really know whats going on, only the second secret group would." Its impossible to prove or disprove.

In regards to freemasonry, the alternative is that it really isn't a secret society and that it really is just a fraternity dedicated to esoteric philosophy and community improvement. Which is more probable? The alternative.



[edit on 14-9-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
The reasoning behind this sort of theory doesn't make any sense. Its the sort of thing, if you were paranoid, you could claim about any group in existence because its general enough that there is no way to prove it or to give it context.

Hmmmm. Did you read my debate?

I have some good reasoning, I think, to believe that there are an outer party that, I would presume, you are a part of, and an inner party, that is far more sinister.

[edit on 9/14/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Hmmmm. Did you read my debate?

I have some good reasoning, I think, to believe that there are an outer party that, I would presume, you are a part of, and an inner party, that is far more sinister.

I did read it and your reasoning is much the same as the OPs. In your particular thread, you seemed to equate the existence of other organizations which are NOT freemasonry (skull and bones, etc.), and the fact that you dislike the government, as being this "sinister outer party." The problem, of course, is that these other groups have no relationship to freemasonry - and your personal dislike for the government also does not mean secret Freemason groups are ruling it.

No one seems to be able to name 1 "outer party" mason, or name 1 time where this "outer party" was able to manipulate us lower level masons for evil. This is because it does not exist. The reasoning behind trying to substantiate the existence of such a group is through using non-falsifiable and generalized statements that, as I have shown, can be applied to any group. Unless there is concentrate evidence no one has shown yet, there is no particular reason as to why this theory would should be given any credence.

The main issue I have with your initial statement regarding Freemasonry is that freemasonry is not a "Secret society", it is merely a society with secrets. The only secrets we have, are the ways and means we use to identify ourselves, other than that, Masonry is pretty much an open book, and all of our ritual and work is available online.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
I did read it and your reasoning is much the same as the OPs. In your particular thread, you seemed to equate the existence of other organizations which are NOT freemasonry (skull and bones, etc.), and the fact that you dislike the government, as being this "sinister outer party." The problem, of course, is that these other groups have no relationship to freemasonry - and your personal dislike for the government also does not mean secret Freemason groups are ruling it.

No one seems to be able to name 1 "outer party" mason, or name 1 time where this "outer party" was able to manipulate us lower level masons for evil. This is because it does not exist. The reasoning behind trying to substantiate the existence of such a group is through using non-falsifiable and generalized statements that, as I have shown, can be applied to any group. Unless there is concentrate evidence no one has shown yet, there is no particular reason as to why this theory would should be given any credence.

First, it's a 1984 reference, the "parties." And it would be the INNER party that is hidden, has devious plans. The lower level masons are the OUTER party.

Second, there is much crossover between such groups as S&B, Bohemian Grove, etc. There is also many in high levels of government, worldwide, who are masons.

My reasoning was that it has become clear that there is likely a move to kill humans down to a level below 500 million. And with these high level masons in governments around the world, one would expect warnings and discussions - IF they were not a part of these plans.

And if they are a part of these plans...then they can't be all that warm and fuzzy, eh?

Originally posted by Amaterasu
There is also many in high levels of government, worldwide, who are masons.

Would you mind naming a few to allow us to verify this statement?

Yeah, and furthermore, if (according to some people) Masons are so active in Government and influencing politics, why has there never been an investigation into individual Masons or the organisation itself and the possible impropriety of the membership of these supposed governmental representatives?

Maybe because it's not as remotely sinister as some easily-excited conspiracy theorists have been led to believe...

Originally posted by Amaterasu
First, it's a 1984 reference, the "parties." And it would be the INNER party that is hidden, has devious plans. The lower level masons are the OUTER party.

This makes no sense. What is the purpose of a outer party, then? If the inner party is so good at this they can all hide in the shadows and NO ONE knows they exist, why exactly do we need all of us outer party masons? How can the inner party user the outer party masons if we don't even recognize their existence? I cannot find the logic here. It would be much more expedient to just do away with the outer party.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Second, there is much crossover between such groups as S&B, Bohemian Grove, etc. There is also many in high levels of government, worldwide, who are masons.

This has no basis in reality. Name a handful of people who were CONFIRMED masons (lodge numbers) and a member of these other groups. Also name 1 single high level government mason. You can't. They don't exist.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
My reasoning was that it has become clear that there is likely a move to kill humans down to a level below 500 million. And with these high level masons in governments around the world, one would expect warnings and discussions - IF they were not a part of these plans.

While this is lovely, its a conspiracy theory that has no logical reason to be connected to freemasonry. What is it EXACTLY in freemasonry that would make a mason want to do such a thing? Quote the line from the ritual. Otherwise, this is fantasy.

I thought I had to jump in and add my two cents, or 33 cents as the case may be.

The only people that have proof of an 'inner-party' are going to be the members who belong to it. They don't keep a list. They don't send out press releases. Roosevelt never got on a podium and said, at least as far as I know, "As a 33rd Degree Mason, my brothers and I want to take this country into the War".

But I can bet that before decisions like this were made, he spoke with other top-level masons about the motives and ramifications behind this move. He probably did not go to, say, the Hoboken Masonic lodge on a friday night and lay out his plans to the people in the first few degrees over beer and Salsbury steak.

When I personally say there is an Illuminati or Cabal, or Hidden Masonic Power structure pulling the strings of things, I mean there are a group of VERY POWERFUL MEN who share an ideology of power and control. They don't share membership cards. Some of those cats are probably Masons, some are Skull and Bones, and some are just the heads of Mega-Huge corporations. They all eat at the same restaurants and their kids go to the same elite schools (read, Hogwarts).

To try and limit the very possibility of the existence of this kind of mentality at the top, because we low level Masons or whatever organization you want to throw in, are compartmentalized from decisions at the top, seems more like an attempt to nullify the thinking about it. Isn't anything possible in today's world?

Show me proof! It can't be! This seems like a very shortsighted way to look at things.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

Does the boss at a Fortune 500 corporation meet with the workers in the mail room to make decisions? Why would Masonry be any different?

Thanks for the thread - Being an officer of a Fraternal Organization (see, I outed myself), I love this stuff.

Thuth
Snip





[edit on 16-9-2008 by space57]

[edit on 16-9-2008 by space57]

[edit on 16-9-2008 by space57]





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[edit on 16/9/08 by JAK]

Originally posted by space57
The only people that have proof of an 'inner-party' are going to be the members who belong to it. They don't keep a list. They don't send out press releases. Roosevelt never got on a podium and said, at least as far as I know, "As a 33rd Degree Mason, my brothers and I want to take this country into the War".

This sort of logic creates a trap for you. If no one knows who is in the outer party, and masons themselves have never heard of it, how is it you know it exists? How is it that this is anything BUT a flight of conspiracy fantasy? If its so secret the people closest to the "truth" (the outer party) has no idea it exists, exactly how do you know that it does?

It really makes absolutely no sense in regards to freemasonry, since to be a freemason you have to go through the first three degrees, and how exactly are you going to hide that? If you want to create your own secret circle your going to have to have the "outer party" initiate you at some point, and then they would be in on it.

This theory is nothing except faulty logic.

Originally posted by space57
But I can bet that before decisions like this were made, he spoke with other top-level masons about the motives and ramifications behind this move. He probably did not go to, say, the Hoboken Masonic lodge on a friday night and lay out his plans to the people in the first few degrees over beer and Salsbury steak.

Again, this makes no sense. WHAT is a top level mason? Please define it. Who else did he talk to? You claim this group is so good none of us "regular" masons know it exists and yet your sure he did this?

Originally posted by space57
When I personally say there is an Illuminati or Cabal, or Hidden Masonic Power structure pulling the strings of things, I mean there are a group of VERY POWERFUL MEN who share an ideology of power and control. They don't share membership cards. Some of those cats are probably Masons, some are Skull and Bones, and some are just the heads of Mega-Huge corporations. They all eat at the same restaurants and their kids go to the same elite schools (read, Hogwarts).

Yet again, WHO ARE THESE POWERFUL MEN? If you again claim that there so good they don't tell anyone, how is it you know they even exist? Why would people want to be a member of a society that does not help them in their goals for power?

Originally posted by space57
To try and limit the very possibility of the existence of this kind of mentality at the top, because we low level Masons or whatever organization you want to throw in, are compartmentalized from decisions at the top, seems more like an attempt to nullify the thinking about it. Isn't anything possible in today's world?

Actually, reality is quite to the contrary. To attempt to conjure nebulous, sinsiter groups on quests for world domination is exactly what the real evil that actually exists in this world would prefer you do. Its so much easier to get away with something when people are taken to flights of conspiracy fantasy about things that have no basis in fact. Creating imaginary groups that are completely contrary to the structure and purpose of an organization just isn't founded in any sense of reality. Just because anything is possible doesn't mean everything occurs.

Originally posted by space57
Show me proof! It can't be! This seems like a very shortsighted way to look at things.

Actually this seems to be like the best way to look at things. If you do not require proof for what you believe, then its quite possible to believe in things that are not true. I would much rather I have some justification for what I believe that supports my theory, rather than believe in something because it explains the world in a way that I like.

Originally posted by space57
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

"The biggest conspiracy has always been the fact that there is no conspiracy. Nobody's out to get you. Nobody gives a [bad word] whether you live or die. There, you feel better now?"
- Dennis Miller

Originally posted by space57
Does the boss at a Fortune 500 corporation meet with the workers in the mail room to make decisions? Why would Masonry be any different?

Masonry would be completely different because you assume it has the structure of a corporation. Not only is this completely wrong, that information is something that is easily found out by looking at Grand Lodge websites. There is no masonic CEO, and no masonic mail room worker. That is, after all, the ENTIRE POINT to masonry - its members meet ON THE LEVEL because they ARE EQUALS. Officers are elected by all members (unlike a corporation), and they can only serve 1 year terms (unlike a corporation) at which point in time they revert back to being just a member.

It is very difficult to identify them - last time I checked on the web I found quite a list. This time I am not finding it. Interesting.

Must be my stupidity. I'm sure information like that was not removed from the web.

I did find the Duke of Kent...and that it was the Duke's Personal Assistant, Andrew Palmer, that organized the Turnberry Bilderberg conference, the last one that took place in the UK.

Interesting.

As for why none are "investigated..." Heh. If you are in charge, are you going to order an investigation into your own activities...?

Deny all you want, there are many Masons in the "Inner Party" - the Elite, if you will.

Why is the "Outer Party" needed? Easy. To give a pleasant face to the Society, and to see who bubbles up and might be ripe to be brought into the "Inner Party." Or used, if there is a need. I'm sure the "Inner Party," as in 1984, has no compunction using the lesser members if it suits them and furthers their goals.



[edit on 9/16/2008 by Amaterasu]

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Deny all you want, there are many Masons in the "Inner Party" - the Elite, if you will.

But these many can not seem to be verified. Nebulous statements do not equate to factual evidence.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Deny all you want, there are many Masons in the "Inner Party" - the Elite, if you will.

But these many can not seem to be verified. Nebulous statements do not equate to factual evidence.

Whatever.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Whatever.

Well said!
Here's what you should do:
1. Stake out you local lodge!
(Now, most lodges have a link hidden on their page that'll tell you when they meet. or it may say it on the front page.)
Catch those sneaky buggers when they're entering their lodge. You'd be amazed! Some of them will be of high ranking positions! Like plumbers, truckers, boat captains (tug boats generally, how coniving.) or even a police officer or two.
2. Even more sinister:
They'll hide a calendar of evil events on their site as well (Sometimes under Events of the Month or Schedule, simple "calendar is not good enough for them. ) Use it to track their movements, sneak up on 'em when they least expect it.
Or you know, you could talk to them, ask them about why they are Masons, if you could tour the lodge, that sort of thing.
Heck, maybe they'll show you where they keep the cherry bombs, though I dunno, you have to pretty high up...

Originally posted by RuneSpider

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Whatever.

Well said!

What else was there to say, really? [smile]

Here's what you should do:
1. Stake out you local lodge!

Would love to, but for reasons of: a) Being out in the boonies - no lodges within 20 miles; b) Not in possession of a vehicle; c) Having no money; and d) Being a woman (which may or may not be an issue), I am rather poorly equipped for this assignment.

2. Even more sinister:
They'll hide a calendar of evil events on their site as well (Sometimes under Events of the Month or Schedule, simple "calendar is not good enough for them. ) Use it to track their movements, sneak up on 'em when they least expect it.

Still the same issues here, but I would love to spend time hunting them down, witnessing what they do.

Or you know, you could talk to them, ask them about why they are Masons, if you could tour the lodge, that sort of thing.

I know of no Masons personally - at least none who would divulge that info to me. And I suspect, being a woman is a definite disadvantage in asking to tour a facility... [wry grin]

Heck, maybe they'll show you where they keep the cherry bombs, though I dunno, you have to pretty high up...

LOL! No, I think my lack of a dangley bit pretty much ensures that no such confidence in ME will occur! [grin] But it's fun to envision.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
It is very difficult to identify them - last time I checked on the web I found quite a list. This time I am not finding it. Interesting.

Its not really all that interesting because its not true - so I'm not really shocked you can't find anyone. What you will find are lists of masons that are untrue plastered over quite a few conspiracy websites - but they are made up, because no one can ever provide a lodge number of initiation dates for any of these famous people.

Masons love it when someone famous is in the fraternity. It makes us happy. I would love if all the powerful people that conspiracy fanatics believe are masons had any basis in fact. We even publicize lists of famous masons. However - its just a FACT that in today's world no major world leader or politician is a mason - and there has not been one for some time.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
I did find the Duke of Kent...and that it was the Duke's Personal Assistant, Andrew Palmer, that organized the Turnberry Bilderberg conference, the last one that took place in the UK.

The problem is that still isn't someone who is a member of both groups - which you said there were just so many of but you can't find one. The Duke of Kent is the "historical" leader of UGLE freemasonry, but its a primarily honorary position. Unfortunately for conspiracy theorists, the Duke is not really a very prominent royal figure of power - if masons were really controlling the world, why wouldn't UK masons find a higher ranking royal?

Originally posted by Amaterasu
As for why none are "investigated..." Heh. If you are in charge, are you going to order an investigation into your own activities...?

This has got to be one of the amusing pieces of circular reasoning I have seen so far on this board. I am amazed.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Deny all you want, there are many Masons in the "Inner Party" - the Elite, if you will.

You can, of course, choose to live in a fantasy world where you believe such things. It is your prerogative to do so. But the fact of the matter is there aren't many masons in the inner party - there is no inner party. You can't name a single one, and you can't explain how is it that the non-falsifiable circular reasoning you've used to justify this can also be applied to any other group, including ATS.

Originally posted by Amaterasu
Why is the "Outer Party" needed? Easy. To give a pleasant face to the Society, and to see who bubbles up and might be ripe to be brought into the "Inner Party." Or used, if there is a need. I'm sure the "Inner Party," as in 1984, has no compunction using the lesser members if it suits them and furthers their goals.

Yet again, this makes no sense. If this mysterious inner party is so good that no mason knows they exist, and so good that you somehow know they exist but can't name a single one, how is it that anyone else is needed? For what purpose? Please give an example of one time where this "inner party" has used us low level masons for anything.

1984 is a interesting book and is indeed something everyone should read. However, you have got to realize that its fictional. You need to be able to separate facts from fiction.