Neandertals and Modern Humans Coexisted?

Right well I can respect someones' wish to believe whatever, but you said that you were ignorant, yet seem to think you know that Aron Ra is flat wrong?

This is a biased view.

The critical study of evolution and the fossil record following the scientific method only leaves to one revelation: that we evolved, like everything else, into what we are today.

That's the unanimous opinion held by the scientific community, and even the catholic and orthodox church.

And BTW, if you can't consider the idea that the bible is fallible then you are never going to be able to look at these things scientifically.

Shall we get back on topic?

Again, the links I provided before pointed towards the coexistence, at some period in time, of Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis.
Whether there was any sexual contact is conjecture, but given our nature it is entirely feasible.

reply to post by ChChKiwi


haha i agree wholeheartedly. Here's something to put on the back burner . . . since male Neanderthals are many times stronger than normal human males; Would it stand to reason that many of the children of ancient women were actually Neanderthal hybrids?

[edit on 9/12/2008 by JPhish]

reply to post by JPhish


Why are we thinking that they could interbreed? They were very distinct from humans and most experts say that genetically they would not produce viable offspring in the same way horse/donkey offspring, mules are sterile.

Plus I don't think they'd mix. I think there would be a deep set racism between these beings.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
Plus I don't think they'd mix. I think there would be a deep set racism between these beings.

There's always rape. It's a strong method of asserting one's power. I'm not saying it happened, but it is possible, just as bestiality is real.

No, I understand what your getting at, but the point I'm making is I think that each group would identify one another as not the same. As in the sapian sapians would not see the Neanderthals as sapian sapians in the same way that we look at gorillas and chimps as not humans.

I think that sex with members of the other group would equate to bestiality.

I think that encounters between the groups would be volatile, and there would be a deep set fear of the group. Any further encounters, I believe would be violent and deadly. Sex would not be on their minds.

The idea of Human-Neanderthal hybrids is incredibly unlikely. The offspring of such a relationship, if even possible in the first place, would be looked at as freaks and probably killed. For many hybrids to survive long enough to reproduce (if not sterile in the first place) there would need to be a kind of respect between these two very different groups, which is unlikely.

As for rape, like I said, I don't think many would go for it, but also I don't think it would be tollerated and a conflict would break out.

I think fear from misunderstanding and ignorance would drive the groups away from each other.

[edit on 9/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Good Wolf


According to the Almighty Wikipedia there are somewhat conflicting views on the interbreeding between our ancestors and Neanderthals.

reply to post by dave420


Thanks for that. I'll take it back, the Neanderthals didn't look that different and I'm not sure that appearances would produce conflict.

Although, I think for any significant amount of interbreeding there would need to be proximity, but I doubt that would happen between small communities that were significantly different as were the thals and sapians, while both were hunter-gatherers peoples.

I'm in the 'they didn't interbreed (significantly)' camp.

Originally posted by ChChKiwi

Originally posted by Good Wolf
Plus I don't think they'd mix. I think there would be a deep set racism between these beings.

There's always rape. It's a strong method of asserting one's power. I'm not saying it happened, but it is possible, just as bestiality is real.

that's exactly where my train of thought was Kiwi. Both are obviously humanoid and the males of the Neanderthals were physically superior. When you can exert your physical will upon those weaker than you; you tend to get what you want.

My problem with that JPhish is that I don't think that they would compete for anything. I don't see man at this stage being territorial, not till agriculture arose.

It will be said that it's in mans' nature to be competitive but I'm not convinced that it always was. I mean why be territorial with your neighbours when the concept of 'property' and 'land ownership' didn't exist?

I think that they'd just avoid each other, and any conflict between the two groups would only be a result of over population forcing them to 'deal' with one another.

You should come to this part of the south the neanderthals are still breeding.

I live 300 miles from civilization in Roanoke Va.

reply to post by Good Wolf


Currently I'm in that camp, too. But who knows - more discoveries could be made to throw it wide open.

Dave:

Although intrabreeding will explain some people I know. Like Richard Pasco, short, stocky and large forehead.

What I don't get is that they are gone. Neanderthals were physically & mentally superior to us, how did they die out.

If we did it, how did we beat a superior race (and why?).

If we didn't then what (who) did?

reply to post by Good Wolf


There's a pretty decent run-down of the various theories on the wikipedia article. It's very interesting.

Originally posted by Good Wolf

What I don't get is that they are gone. Neanderthals were physically & mentally superior to us, how did they die out.

Brain capacity does not equate with mental superiority. This is a common mistake.
We were able to communicate better and this probably gave us the evolutionary advantage.
link





link for quote below


"Using 50,000-year-old fossils from France and a computer synthesizer, McCarthy’s team has generated a recording of how a Neanderthal would pronounce the letter “e.” The brief recording doesn’t sound like any letter in modern languages, but McCarthy says that’s because Neanderthals lacked the “quantal vowels” modern humans use. Quantal vowels provide cues that help speakers with different size vocal tracts understand one another."


link regarding interbreeding

Neanderthal and the Modern Human Colonisation of Europe


link

link

Hope this helps!

picture from here






[edit on 12/9/08 by ChChKiwi]

I suspect they probably had peaceful interactions more often than not, because their level of technology was so similar, which implies trading of ideas and goods, and it's in everyone's best interest not to fight because survival was probably hard enough as it is.

I don't think similar levels of tech implies trade.

Technology is only ever going to get to a certain point in the absence of written language and otherwise stored information.

It just tells me is that as they both didn't have written language, they both had pretty much reached their pinnacles.

There are lots of different ways to make an axe. With loads of different sharp edge styles and hand grips etc. but they all preform pretty much the same. So I'm gunna say that they would have similar but unrelated techs, but I'd still say that they would avoid each other.

Just reading up on the wikipedia page on Neanderthals.

There is debate as to whether they should be considered Homo neanderthalensis or Homo sapian neanderthalensis. So clearly whether or not they are a sub-species of humans or a completely different species.

That said, there is still a consensus the humans and Neanderthals did not interbreed.

They lived in small groups and since humans lived in larger 'clans' (indicative of our superior social order) that we simply overwhelmed them. It certainly would not have been an even fight.

It seems clear that Neanderthals would never be in a position to 'rape' H.S. sapian women, rather the other way around, but I'm still inclined to think that that would not happen ie. I'm a white guy, and I'm attracted to white girls. I don't think rape would happen, at least not frequnetly.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I'm a white guy, and I'm attracted to white girls.

That doesn't mean a thing. I'm a white guy sand I'm attracted to girls...it doesn't matter what ethnicity they are, to me. I think Maori women of Ngati Porou are some of the most beautiful women I've seen, same with some Indians, various Asian ethnicities, Greeks, etc etc.

Yes, wiki is o.k.to read up but remember it is user generated and so is not as 'scientific' as say an Anthropology journal online anthrop. It (wiki) gives a reasonable overview but it misses some of the 'nitty-gritty.

Regarding the 'rape' situation, I think it could well have gone both ways. People can become isolated from their groups etc.
I also think there may well have been some interbreeding, there may well be a 'consensus' that they didn't, but it is by no means set in stone.
there would have been competition for resources if they cohabited an area (such as the Levant, or Gibraltor) and I think contact would have been difficult to avoid once 'they' were known about.