Power of Conformity

Are you able not to conform?

I believe the ability of not being a conformist flies in the face of bio-survival making it extremely difficult to think or act outside of a pack (mammalian) mentality.

From Candid Camera From Candid Camera

Candid Camera was a popular television program in the US in the 1960s.

The program used the classic methodology of naturalistic experiments in social psychology as the source of its humorous scenarios.

The resulting programs were not only entertaining, but also potentially instructive.

For example, how independent is the average person when confronted with the all-powerful "consensus of the group?"

Not very.

Creating a consensus quickly is the goal of every "shock and awe" propagandist.

Another link as well for quote:www.brasschecktv.com...

[edit on 8-9-2008 by whiteraven]

I have observed that it takes a radical change of venue and friends to change a worldview.

The odd thing is that if you adopt a different worldview you often become very fanitcal concerning the maitenance of the new worldview until that worldview changes or collapses.

A good example are detox and Alcohol reabilatation centers. They teach a new way of thinking, they try to establish a different set of rules for the patients.

In order for the patient to maintain and conform they must attend meetings and have a sponser in order to maintain said path given at Rehab.

It is very difficult to be non conformist and this lends to a good success rate if the patient continues to go to meeting, hang out with new friends, etc

Any thoughts? I am looking for opposing views or ideas.

Originally posted by whiteraven
I have observed that it takes a radical change of venue and friends to change a worldview.

I have to disagree. ATS changes most peoples' worldview drastically, but most don't ditch their real life friends over it. I think all that needs to occur to change someone's worldview is something drastic, traumatic, or irrefutable happening to them.

The odd thing is that if you adopt a different worldview you often become very fanitcal concerning the maitenance of the new worldview until that worldview changes or collapses.

I concur wholeheartedly. To use the ATS example again...so many people (including myself) start to freak out a little the first few months after discovering it...staying on for hours reading threads from months and years gone by, viewing their day to day live through a paranoid prism, becoming afraid that the NWO or whomever really is out to enslave them. But eventually you settle down and are able to sort out what you think might be true or not, and how you will respond to this information.

A good example are detox and Alcohol reabilatation centers. They teach a new way of thinking, they try to establish a different set of rules for the patients.

In order for the patient to maintain and conform they must attend meetings and have a sponser in order to maintain said path given at Rehab.

It is very difficult to be non conformist and this lends to a good success rate if the patient continues to go to meeting, hang out with new friends, etc

To me, this sounds like a cult. If you have to completely abandon your (however harmful) ideology, friends, family, and way of life and adopt an entirely new identity how is this not a cult? We should have included this in Skyfloating's 'cults' thread.

The thing about a cult is, if you aren't fanatical you tend not to be as well accepted and possibly expelled. If someone only did 6 of the 12 steps, would they be no longer welcome at AA?

Good thread, wr.

The definition of of community in this day and age would include ATS.

A community, such as ATS , serves as portal for alternate views to be tabled.

The alternate views are placed in the community of ATS in a format that is truly democratic and open. It is a way of presenting information that we are familiar with.

ATS may influence our worldview via conforming to the ideas that are presented on screen but I would not push the idea that it actually changes our worldview.....unlike a religion or a cult which would ask you to radicaly change your behavior and the persons you hang with.

Boot camp and war will change your world view and the people you hang with.

I believe they use conformity to help change your world view.

Look at the results Stanford found when looking at conformity.




[edit on 8-9-2008 by whiteraven]

I think there is also a genetic component to conformists and outlaws.
Granted nurture/nature has a powerful effect, but some people avoid conformity at any cost and other need the comfort of belonging. The tribal
archetype in humans is still a very powerful dynamic in modern society; as evidenced in groups such as Goths, bikers, metalheads, emo, hippies etc. said groups like to think of themselves as nonconformist but in reality they are exhibiting neotribalism.

I noticed this during my short attempt at teaching Junior College.

The true nonconformist usually have deepseated issues only they know about. And often are just plain nutz with a tenuous grasp on reality.

Trauma can change our world view.

Many religions,goverments ask a person to look at, meditate upon suffering...ie Christ on the Cross, heroic war heroes and battles, in order to help a person conform to the quo.

What would it take to bring about dramatic peace in this world ?

Are we aware of the fact that goverments and religion are very skillfull in crafting how we interpret events?

I have been through a few high trauma events (as high as they come according to two psych evals) with the end reslt being a intense search for truth.

The biggest issue I have grappled with is being aware that after trauma a person can be "suckered" into believing things in order to try to regain a sense of community and a sense of bearing.

And that brings me around again to the above question concerning peace and conformity.

If a extreme trauma event took place again in North America would we then be primed and ready for world peace?

I believe ATS members might get the drift of my question?

Great observation whaa?

What subject did you teach and what method did you use to bring conformity to your class?

reply to post by sc2099
you said....Quote
I have to disagree. ATS changes most peoples' worldview drastically, but most don't ditch their real life friends over it. I think all that needs to occur to change someone's worldview is something drastic, traumatic, or irrefutable happening to them. quote

Sorry I took a while to digest some of your post. I tried to synth your post right after you posted and it may have appeared that I ignored you but I was only trying to learn from you and regurgatating your thoughts "out loud"

Anyways....are you not contradicting yourself above with the statement I quoted....

I rehashed it to mean ATS influences worldview and trauma, drastic measures change worldview....would that be more accurate...just a question...

sometimes disonance in views is nothing more then harmony...for example....in a C major scale if you play a CMaj 9 chord you are really adding the second note of the scale to make the maj 9 ..a disonant note brings about a different harmonic structure.

I need to refine my ideas...and you are helping

Peace
WR






[edit on 8-9-2008 by whiteraven]

Originally posted by whiteraven
Great observation whaa?

What subject did you teach and what method did you use to bring conformity to your class?

Thanks, WR, I taught anthro 101, and archeology field study [digging] for 2 semesters and a summer session and quickly found out the life of an academic wasn't for me.
Way to much conformity!

Actually I tried to foster radical thinking in my classes. Perhaps another reason for my short lived stint in the world of academe along with my own substance abuse problems.

[edit on 8-9-2008 by whaaa]

Cool.

Define "radical thinking" for me......chemistry radicals would be unpaired electrons....social radicals

The term Radical (Latin radix meaning root) was used during the late 18th century for proponents of the Radical Movement and has since been used as a label in political science. It can be described for those favoring or trying to produce thorough political reforms which include dramatic changes to the social order of a society. Historically, early radical aims of liberty and electoral reform in Great Britain widened with the American Revolution and French Revolution so that some radicals sought republicanism, abolition of titles, redistribution of property and freedom of the press. Initially identifying itself as a far left party opposed to the liberal Orleanists, the Legitimists and the Bonapartists in France in the nineteenth century, the Republican, Radical and Radical‐Socialist Party progressively became the most important party of the Third Republic (1871 – 1940). As historical Radicalism became absorbed in the development of political liberalism, in the later 19th century in both the United Kingdom and continental Europe the term Radical came to denote a progressive liberal ideology

When i think of radicals i think of the above......radical means return to the root....

This can truly cause conformity in groups!

Interesting.

Another question.

How can an individual cause conformity in groups?

Is it placed via the authority?

Is authority placed via imprinting?

The best known form of imprinting is filial imprinting, in which a young animal learns the characteristics of its parent. It is most obvious in nidifugous birds, who imprint on their parents and then follow them around. It was first reported in domestic chickens, by the 19th century amateur biologist Douglas Spalding. It was rediscovered by the early ethologist Oskar Heinroth, and studied extensively and popularised by his disciple Konrad Lorenz working with greylag geese.

Did the radical 1960 's lose because the imprint of authority was a WW 2 imprint via news, tv?

humans are pack animals we are meant to conform, but we should have the power to choose for ourselves what we conform to, some might say we do.

Originally posted by caballero
humans are pack animals we are meant to conform, but we should have the power to choose for ourselves what we conform to, some might say we do.

Yes I tend to agree with the pack animal mentality.

Yet if we are "pack animals" or tribal then does that not negate the power to choose for ourselves?

In "old" society, or ancient society if you were deemed an outcast it would mean a death sentance as you would find it very hard to survive out on your own....hunting ..gathering..

So being "part of the pack" would be a bio survival imprint/genetic choice that is deeply rooted.

Remember Cain...he thought his punishmnet was to hard to bear..being branded an outcast by God after he discovered that Abel was murdered...

hence..from the above Genesis story we see the view of being an outcast as being "somehow" equal with punishment of the murder of ones own brother.

( it does not matter if you believe the historic value of the story..i am looking at the meaning of the story)

So conformity would equal a good life in many cases.....non conformity ..or being an outcast would be a death sentance..in "old" society.

Question....how does one rise above the pack to sense a new, correct sense of direction?

Or is this new sense of direction and the person who "rises" above the pack a result of social evolution?

Is the person who becomes the leader for "radical change" simply responding to the pack that wants to change or evolve?

Originally posted by sc2099
The thing about a cult is, if you aren't fanatical you tend not to be as well accepted and possibly expelled. If someone only did 6 of the 12 steps, would they be no longer welcome at AA?

Alcoholics Anonymous Tradition 3: The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

While some rehab-based programs may require sponsorship, strict exercises regarding the steps, etc., Alcoholics Anonymous (and I'm pretty sure Narcotics Anonymous) do not.

Nor do they require you to change your worldview, though for most people in the depths of addiction the worldview change is an eye-opener rather than the eye-closer people who insist on seeing AA, NA, etc as "cults" believe.

Great thread, but I want to dispel the misconception about recovery programs.

Edit to add: The motto on the year coins for AA members is "To thine own self be true."

[edit on 9/9/08 by americandingbat]

reply to post by americandingbat


Bill W. had a very interesting poit of view. I have read the manual or book and I see the correlation of the Book of James in the Bible.

If you follow the 12 steps does it not say that your world view will change via a "spiritual awakening"....I believe this is step 12.

The Big Book is a good read for anyone trying to understand the down and dirty throes of addiction.

I find Bill W. to be a facinating person.

Though he had nothing to drink for the last 35 years, he continued to crave alcohol[citation needed] and on his death bed demanded whisky, which his attendants refused him. [

en.wikipedia.org...

Wilson was serially unfaithful to his wife Lois.[16] Wilson's compulsive sexual pursuits caused controversy within AA, and it was common knowledge in New York AA circles. His interest in younger women increased with his age, and motivated Barry Leach and other friends of Wilson's to form a "Founders Watch". People were assigned to keep an eye on Wilson during the socializing that followed AA functions and to separate and steer away those young women who caught his interest.

en.wikipedia.org...

In my world view I do not condem or judge anybody for the above desires....as I am a human being as well, a primate, a mammal, evolved from the same ancestors as you. My desires mirror the desires of other humans.

Yet I find the life of Bill W. to be completely facinating.

Read the below sentance. His treatment with '___' was brought forward via Humphrey Osmond from Weyburn SK who termed the word psychadelic...and introduced Huxley to the soma which resulted in the writing the "Doors of Perception" which Jim Morrison read and then named the Band The Doors after the book by Huxley.

In the 1950s Wilson experimented with '___' in medically supervised experiments with Betty Eisner, Gerald Heard , and Aldous Huxley

Aldous Huxley called him "the greatest social architect of our century

A lot of the history of Bill W. has been sanitized by persons who know nothing about the man!

Thank you for you r post

Peace and Love
WR






[edit on 9-9-2008 by whiteraven]

[edit on 9-9-2008 by whiteraven]

Here is something that I find interesting concernong Bill W.

One of his therapeutic journeys lead him to Trabuco College in California, and the friendship of the college’s founder, Aldous Huxley. The author of Brave New World and The Doors of Perception introduced Wilson to '___'-25. The drug rocked Wilson’s world. He thought of it as something of a miracle substance and continued taking it well into the ‘60s. As he approached his 70th birthday, he developed a plan to have '___' distributed at all AA meetings nationwide. The plan was eventually quashed by more rational voices, and a few years later the Federal government made the point moot by making the drug illegal. (That Wilson’s plan was shot down is probably fortunate. '___' is a beautiful thing, but nothing sounds more horrifying to me than a roomful of chain-smoking, frightened, needy drunks tripping their heads off in the basement of the local Y.)

www.moderndrunkardmagazine.com...

Bill Wilson may be a good person to study when it comes to looking at "catalyst to change" in a social/religious perspective.

His life was dramaticaly changed via the great depression. Many of his "faults" pushed against the norm resulting not only in the big book but in a point of view that at times is opposing the Big book.

I absolutely agree that Bill Wilson might be an interesting case study -- though I personally think I would have found him intolerably egotistical, bombastic, grandiose, and boring.

As a person, that is. And believe me, I have my faults, and he might not have liked me either -- as a person.

BTW, just one warning about the source you link. I didn't check it out too thoroughly, but Alanon Family Services is not, as it claims, AA's "parent institution". The "Big Book", Alcoholics Anonymous, the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, and the Grapevine are all published by AA World Services, Inc. Information on the AA structure can be found on the AA General Services Office website.

I wonder also about your proposition that Wilson's history has been whitewashed. By who? Everything you've offered is widely known within AA, and much of it is available in official literature.

Apologies to the OP for getting pretty far off track here. But recovery was offered up as an example of a demand for conformity after a worldview change, and I think it's important to question that.

Alcoholics Anonymous does promise that you will have a "spiritual awakening as the result of these steps" (Step 12). It does not tell you anything about what that will consist of. Appendix A to the Big Book is the only specific information given in the Big Book (the Grapevine throughout its history, and the personal story sections of the Big Book provide specific members' stories of their own individual awakenings.) Appendix A refers to William James' Varieties of the Religious Experience in clarifying the point that there are many kinds of spiritual experiences, not only the "white light" type.

Edit: to provide link to AA General Services

Edit again: I apologize, whiteraven. I had somehow lost track of the fact that you are the OP


[edit on 9/9/08 by americandingbat]

He did not ever completely abandon his old worldviews.....not at its root.

I wonder if he simply was on a huge quest of somesort.

It always is a treasure to meet people who have opposing worldviews.

I am trying to contrast some worldviews as an exercize in Promethius Rising. ie..contrast Capitalist and Marxist
materialistic and non materilistic etc

A fruit of speaking to persons who are marxist or capitalist is the question of how they changed their worldview to adopt another?

ie a Socialist to a Capitalist
Did they simply conform to the trends?

ie. in college a person seemed very very liberal and now older with family they are very very conservative??

So, again, did they simply confrom?

Most of the youth of the 1960's seemed very left wing yet when they hit baby bearing years they voted in Reagen, then Bush, then a center guy bill Clinton and then right wing again G. Bush jr....

So i want to apply my answers, if i get any, toward a practical application concerning social change.

Bill W. must have been under great presuure to become a Saint....founder of AA etc yet he never did conform to what the directors of AA wanted him to be.

Peace